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Discontinued The Grasshopper

vapviking

Old & In the Way
Thats an excellent excuse. But it is not an adequate one in the court of business practices. Someone waiting since August 19' ? They probably aren't capable on the business side but that is not an excuse. The BBB or consumer affairs will make an inquiry, they will start to have adequate business practices.
I wasn't making any excuses, just stating what I believe to be the way things are.
Of course a year is too long to wait, but I don't think your "movement" will gain enough traction to change that part in the least.
 
vapviking,

Cheesequake

Free Men Don't Ask
BBB doesn't have any actual power. It's basically just a company you pay money to to have your name on their site these days. Hopper Labs isn't affiliated with them in any way. Just look at a few different companies on there, they'll have an A+ rating with the BBB then you look at user reviews and literally all you see is complaints.
 
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Tiny88

Deluxe420
@Vape Master, I've seen lots of posts from you praising the products, but it seems you'd just as soon send the 'Labs into oblivion in the name of 'helping many others'.

These guys are engineers, and pretty good ones, but they are absolutely not businessmen (at least not as we in the normal capitalist world know business!) and they are clearly not public relations experts.

Anyone who has done business in the first few years with HL should have had the smarts to do their homework or, at minimum, been willing to part with their money should it not work out. As @Tiny88 calls it, a risky ipo that he threw some money at.

@vapviking Yes, they are amazing engineers and yes they are not businessmen... but, they could have out sourced that from the beginning and hired a business strategist.

Thats an excellent excuse. But it is not an adequate one in the court of business practices. Someone waiting since August 19' ? They probably aren't capable on the business side but that is not an excuse. The BBB or consumer affairs will make an inquiry, they will start to have adequate business practices.

So I have to agree with @Vape Master "that this is not proper business practices", this shit show that they have created and now they have backed themselves into a corner could have all been prevented.
 
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Vape Master

Formerly C3PO
@vapviking Yes, they are amazing engineers and yes they are not businessmen... but, they could have out sourced that from the beginning and hired a business strategist.



So I have to agree with @Vape Master "that this is not proper business practices", this shit show that they have created and now they have backed themselves into a corner could have all been prevented.
I LOVE the IO. But when I hear of these business practices.

1. Go bbb of their state. It really does address the issue. If a consistant problem they will have to do make changes to stay in business.

2. Consumer affairs does a good job at investigating unfair business practices.

Agreed engineers are awesome but its UP to US to not throw in the towel on their poor business end.

Worked for me.

1. Daily E-Mail.
2. BBB of their state. Guaranteed follow up by bbb.
3. If there is a history of complaints they will investigate.

The result. R
They get a bad mark with BBB, the last thing they want. A proposition to solve the matter and get a positive mark by the bbb.

Enough complaints to consumer affairs will shut them down.

I use the IO every night. Love it. But if it needs service and I have to wait a year and then I would pay zero for that vape.
 
Vape Master,
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vapviking

Old & In the Way
Worked for me.

1. Daily E-Mail.
2. BBB of their state. Guaranteed follow up by bbb.
3. If there is a history of complaints they will investigate.

The result. R
They get a bad mark with BBB, the last thing they want. A proposition to solve the matter and get a positive mark by the bbb.
Did this specific strategy "work for you" in some other circumstance, or did it yield some result with Hopper Labs?

I have to say, I have had literally scores of issues with HL over the years, and while some have taken an extremely long time, every one has been resolved by the company - eventually. No way do I want to participate in 'shutting them down", thanks.
They're still standing. The markets have spoken.
 

Vape Master

Formerly C3PO
It worked for me 5 years ago. by BBB write the problem, what you need to resolve, they may ask for proof. All of a sudden The emails were answered and I got a refurbished one. Then a follow up from BBB all matters settled For them it counts as a complaint but resolved. It's good, but hopefully no need. Enough complaints even if resolved can result in a negative rating with BBB and that hurts there credit to borrow and smart consumers will look at the complaints. The BBB can close down a website business. Pay Pal can refuse to work for them.
 
Vape Master,

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
I don’t understand this idea that the engineering is awesome but the business skills are lacking. If the products were truly engineered to be rock solid reliable then most of the RMA related delays responsible for CS issues would have simply never occurred in the first place. I’m certainly not seeing any such complaints in the TinyMight thread and that’s built by a guy who had quite the history on FC with customer service.
 

Abysmal Vapor

Supersniffer 2000 - robot fart detection device
I don’t understand this idea that the engineering is awesome but the business skills are lacking. If the products were truly engineered to be rock solid reliable then most of the RMA related delays responsible for CS issues would have simply never occurred in the first place. I’m certainly not seeing any such complaints in the TinyMight thread and that’s built by a guy who had quite the history on FC with customer service.
You can also probably speculate that there are or soon will be more TMs in the wild than GHs. He doesnt ask extra money for warranty transfers upon sale and also does not give people hassle about repairing/replacing devices .
 

Vaporific

All who wander are not lost...
You can also probably speculate that there are or soon will be more TMs in the wild than GHs. He doesnt ask extra money for warranty transfers upon sale and also does not give people hassle about repairing/replacing devices .
The Tinymight (TM) has a ways to go before it’s more prolific and numerous in the wild. Case in point: many Hopper vets herein have multiple units while only a handful or two of folks have multiple TMs. But yes, the TM has had few initial issues (not a single one for mine).

Also, early quality control was poor back with legacy Hoppers. And then there’s the battery which I won’t delve into. IMO the Hopper is indeed an engineering marvel yet had a few (perhaps a bit more) design issues (hence the introduction of the PFE, for example - yes). Customer service from my perspective has been horrible though others will disagree. I hope the io fares better (TBD) and HL turns things around. They’ve had lots of setbacks yet continue to persevere which is a testament to their tenacity. I don’t agree with how they’re running the company but, when it works well, very few portable vapes can match the Hopper, and now the io. I don’t own an io (yet). My pre-order Ti received in July ‘16 continue to run fairly including a year-long stint in RMA-ville about halfway through its ownership lifecycle. Not bad but couldve been better (or worse lost in the fire).

For me none of it is ideal. Love the vape but not how HL operated and continues to operate. I’m very thankful for Blu-Tac and cleaning the backend threads recently as it was getting hot. Lots of black funk in the threads and it’s running a bit better now. I cleaned it thoroughly a few weeks ago too and had to re-do the threads (ISO too) along with De-oxit for the contacts. My Hopper is working better as of late.

AND I recently received replacement batteries from HL (another CS fiasco and a comedy of errors - see my CS comment above as I won’t delve into this either). Happy Humpday to all. :peace:
 

Vitolo

Vaporist
I feel so blessed.
I use my Hopper every day, and have for two straight months.
While I have spares, I have not switched batteries, and I am getting bolder with my sessions... milking each
load with 4 hits per load...
..and going into next load without a charge.
When I do charge it it charges up really fast.
I like the GrassHopper!
 

vapviking

Old & In the Way
I don’t understand this idea that the engineering is awesome but the business skills are lacking. If the products were truly engineered to be rock solid reliable then most of the RMA related delays responsible for CS issues would have simply never occurred in the first place. I’m certainly not seeing any such complaints in the TinyMight thread and that’s built by a guy who had quite the history on FC with customer service.
While I don't wish to get into comparisons with any individual startups, I can at least explain what I was getting at.
I think these guys are very good engineers and are on the path to having a reliable product, but it's not quite there yet.
In a larger development environment, in an established company, a product like the hopper would go through many iterations and far more rigorous testing before marketing -- the numbers and scale in that arena are big enough to dictate that (or their product would not have been contemplated).

I suppose my point is that, in the first place, HL skipped the development step - and has used the market to "support" it's development cycle. Not a winning strategy and it has cost them a lot in a lot of areas, not the least of which is customer satisfaction. That's the poor businessman part in action.
 
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Abysmal Vapor

Supersniffer 2000 - robot fart detection device
@Vaporific Do you actually know how many hoppers are there in the wild ? Also people are buying multiple units because they are not reliable and it is the only way to get a fresh battery. With tm you just need a few batteries,there only a handful failed units,he didnt even refuse to repair/exchange those caused by user error.I imagine that TM is just not so popular in the US ,being a EU product that also requires import duties ,so that is why we havent heard more user feedback here at FC. The majority of EU guys live in prohibited area and many of them dont feel like sharing their buyer experiences.
He is almost ready to push 1000s a month,i have now clue how many hoppers are sold montly ,so i can only speculate that it will surpass them in sales. Even the two month pre-order wait is nothing compared to the turnaround time for a RMA,if HL were pushing that many why just not replace units,instead make people wait to years.
Anyway i wont derail this thread any more,i just follow invertedisdead and decided to add to his statement.
 
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Vaporific

All who wander are not lost...
@Vaporific Do you actually know how many hoppers are there in the wild ? Also people are buying multiple units because they are not reliable and it is the only way to get a fresh battery. With tm you just need a few batteries,there only a handful failed units,he didnt even refuse to repair/exchange those caused by user error.I imagine that TM is just not so popular in the US ,being a EU product that also requires import duties ,so that is why we havent heard more user feedback here at FC. The majority of EU guys live in prohibited area and many of them dont feel like sharing their buyer experiences.
He is almost ready to push 1000s a month,i have now clue how many hoppers are sold montly ,so i can only speculate that it will surpass them in sales. Even the two month pre-order wait is nothing compared to the turnaround time for a RMA,if HL were pushing that many why just not replace units,instead make people wait to years.
Anyway i wont derail this thread any more,i just follow invertedisdead and decided to add to his statement.
No I do not nor am I privy to any sales data. I could venture a guess but it’s speculation. I don’t disagree that Tinymight could one day surpass Hopper, or io or both - and I’m guessing TM has a ways to go. Your example of folks buying extra units to fill in for repaired ones bolsters my opinion. But HL has been around for 5-6 years and TM started rolling off the assembly line late last year so TM has catching up to do.

Love both vapes (Hopper and TM) for different reasons not including customer service interactions (I won’t go there). I bought a PFE earlier this year and used it once. The native frontend suits me fine and I’m mostly (99% of the time) a native user. I keep things simple which is something inherent to (most) portable vapes. The Hopper is just that - simple, simple to operate, load, clean (and hide). Still love it for those reasons and, hell yes, I missed it for a year while in RMA. It has that allure for me. Ironically I’m honking on my TM in my shed while I write this after some yard work, lol.:peace:
 

vapviking

Old & In the Way
Yesterday I took a look at one of my og's (a plain ti) to try once again to somehow get it drawing easier. I have tried compressed air with heat (from the unit) and I'm never able to get it back to anything like new.
I began poking into holes with a firm pin, first the air intake holes, then the chamber screen. Not much difference. Then I messed with the chamber screen a little more.

I found that the screen can spin freely when grabbed with the fine tweezers I use to tighten the mp screen, so I began to pull as I turned. Very soon I had lifted the screen all the way out. It has 3 little feet on its' bottom perimeter and they also apply spring tension against the chamber walls.

Below the screen is another screen-like piece that happens to have 3 dots on it (solder connections?). 2 are blue and one is darker. I don't think it is the heat element proper (but I really don't know). I cleaned cautiously with a swab lightly moistened with alcohol. The walls from the screen down were caked and black -- took a long time to clean that small area (probably no benefit beyond peace of mind) and the screen thing had some debris that has fallen through onto it over time, so I carefully cleaned that, used air & heat while I had it open with still warm alcohol on it. The chamber screen slid back in with very little fuss.

I feel that the only way I might have been able to clean more would be further dis-assembly & maybe a sonic cleaner or something like that.

The draw is marginally better. Night and day compared to the new io, and though it will still rank 3rd for me in draw among my hopper herd, it now is at a point where I would use it without too much complaint. I may loan it out. I wish the back end would not get so freakin' hot. New battery has not corrected that in my case.
 

Vaporific

All who wander are not lost...
I wish the back end would not get so freakin' hot. New battery has not corrected that in my case.
Did you also do diligence to the backend: ISO, De-omit for the contacts and/or Blu-Tac? Heck, some of these suggestions I might’ve gleaned from you and other Hopper vets over the years. My lone Hopper’s backend has been getting hotter as of late even after trying all those methods and new batteries I received a few weeks ago (marginally better than the older ones I have in rotation). A fresh battery isn’t so much the issue as when it starts to lose juice then the backend gets hot (or several successive quick draws - and I never use my Hopper above 3.5 which is too hot for me natively). Good luck! :peace:
 

vapviking

Old & In the Way
Did you also do diligence to the backend: ISO, De-omit for the contacts and/or Blu-Tac? Heck, some of these suggestions I might’ve gleaned from you and other Hopper vets over the years. My lone Hopper’s backend has been getting hotter as of late even after trying all those methods and new batteries I received a few weeks ago (marginally better than the older ones I have in rotation). A fresh battery isn’t so much the issue as when it starts to lose juice then the backend gets hot (or several successive quick draws - and I never use my Hopper above 3.5 which is too hot for me natively). Good luck! :peace:
A fresh/new battery is not the issue for me either; either way as battery charge goes down, back end heat goes up.
My other ti og does not show this hot behavior.
De-oxit. Tried it a couple of months ago with no noticeable change.
I do clean threads pretty often with Stic-tac (same as Blu, another brand). I think on a couple of occasions this has helped with current circulation and led to less finicky light blinking for a time. Change to back end heat minimal.
 

fogbank

Well-Known Member
A fresh/new battery is not the issue for me either; either way as battery charge goes down, back end heat goes up.
My other ti og does not show this hot behavior.
De-oxit. Tried it a couple of months ago with no noticeable change.
I do clean threads pretty often with Stic-tac (same as Blu, another brand). I think on a couple of occasions this has helped with current circulation and led to less finicky light blinking for a time. Change to back end heat minimal.

I also have not found anything that definitively affects the hot back end issue. I have used Blu-Tac and freshly charged batteries and still experienced scorching hot back end on my 2016 SS Hopper. As others have observed, this does not happen on all Hoppers. My newer ones seem to be affected less than older ones. But even my 2016 Ti model didn't seem to get a hot back end.
 

Vapor_Eyes

taste buds
I would guess the only reason MOST people have multiple hoppers is because they're worried one or two or three will break and they want a backup. I probably wouldn't own more than one if I thought they were reliable.

That is the main reason I have two hoppers. I also like having two for when I have a guest over. That way we each have our own personal hopper to use.

Do you actually know how many hoppers are there in the wild ?

Hopper Labs has sold at least 40,000 hoppers. That number is from a 2017 article, so the current numbers are probably much higher by now.
 

Vaporific

All who wander are not lost...
Hopper Labs has sold at least 40,000 hoppers. That number is from a 2017 article, so the current numbers are probably much higher by now.
Thanks for the article! Never saw that. My guess was around 50-60k but could be off and lower than the actual figure. Cool to have some substantive benchmark even a few years old.

I have the original mag charger for my pre order Ti and have only recently started using it in my car. I do think the magnet needs to be in place before the USB end is plugged in, otherwise no lights at all indicating it’s charging. I’ll keep an eye on this.:peace:
 

Vapor_Eyes

taste buds
In regards to the recent discussion of Hopper Labs lack of business acumen, let’s not forget that all of their problems have not been under their control. There are certainly areas in which they could have done better. The biggest issue so far has been the unauthorized switch of materials that their heater manufacturer made to save money, which caused a massive increase in failures. Hopper Labs eventually scrapped all of those parts, so I’m sure they lost a lot of money when that happened.

The next major issue was the constant delays and subsequent recall of the 2019 batch of batteries. This was their largest order ever, 50,000 batteries, and they also had to eventually scrap these batteries. They couldn’t sell batteries to their customer for months and then eventually had to write the entire batch off as a loss.

Now they have switched to a different battery supplier but Covid-19 is causing delays in production and shipping. Again, this is out of HL’s control. It was HL’s decision to use a custom battery, but the rest was out of their control.

When the Grasshopper first launched it had serious quality control issues. The repairs were much faster then. Almost all repairs were completed within three days. I personally have never had an RMA take longer than that, and with shipping my turnaround has always been under two weeks. The RMAs were prompt for several years until the heater fiasco. At that point Hopper Labs had to start producing heaters themselves at a much lower volume. They also were probably in dire financial circumstances making it hard to scale production as needed.

Before the heater fiasco the latest Grasshoppers had become pretty reliable and the customer service and RMAs were much quicker than the Firefly 2 for example. I fully believe Hopper Labs can return to that level and even surpass it. I’m not saying HL hasn’t made mistakes, I’m just saying we should give a little credit where it’s due. They’ve been working hard trying to make the best device possible. It’s easy to say they should have done things differently from the beginning but the device may have never reached the market. I’ve been using my Grasshoppers for over four years, the initial experience was amazing and my units have been upgraded throughout that time with better tech, free of charge.
 
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Vaporific

All who wander are not lost...
Almost all repairs were completed within three days.
Consider yourself lucky. My single RMA event took a year, others have waited months and others even longer than me. You and others like your wait time are the exception, not the norm from what I’ve read herein for 4-5 years. And many have had the same unit go back and forth to HL since they didn’t fix the issue the first time (or another sad story occurred with their repaired unit). I have not read every single page of this thread but a majority prior to ordering my lone pre order Ti. I do hope HL persists and rises from the ashes as it were. We all know when the Hopper works well, it works well - and there is little out there to compare it with. Indeed, quality is job one and one of the things not done well at the beginning (it appears to have improved). Trying to stay positive with HL, that’s all I can muster at this point (the CS has been horrible for me - just saying). :peace: :peace: :peace:
 
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Cheesequake

Free Men Don't Ask
In regards to the recent discussion of Hopper Labs lack of business acumen, let’s not forget that all of their problems have not been under their control. There are certainly areas in which they could have done better. The biggest issue so far has been the unauthorized switch of materials that their heater manufacturer made to save money, which caused a massive increase in failures. Hopper Labs eventually scrapped all of those parts, so I’m sure they lost a lot of money when that happened.

The next major issue was the constant delays and subsequent recall of the 2019 batch of batteries. This was their largest order ever, 50,000 batteries, and they also had to eventually scrap these batteries. They couldn’t sell batteries to their customer for months and then eventually had to write the entire batch off as a loss.

Now they have switched to a different battery supplier but Covid-19 is causing delays in production and shipping. Again, this is out of HL’s control. It was HL’s decision to use a custom battery, but the rest was out of their control.

When the Grasshopper first launched it had serious quality control issues. The repairs were much faster then. Almost all repairs were completed within three days. I personally have never had an RMA take longer than that, and with shipping my turnaround has always been under two weeks. The RMAs were prompt for several years until the heater fiasco. At that point Hopper Labs had to start producing heaters themselves at a much lower volume. They also were probably in dire financial circumstances making it hard to scale production as needed.

Before the heater fiasco the latest Grasshoppers had become pretty reliable and the customer service and RMAs were much quicker than the Firefly 2 for example. I fully believe Hopper Labs can return to that level and even surpass it. I’m not saying HL hasn’t made mistakes, I’m just saying we should give a little credit where it’s due. They’ve been working hard trying to make the best device possible. It’s easy to say they should have done things differently from the beginning but the device may have never reached the market. I’ve been using my Grasshoppers for over four years, the initial experience was amazing and my units have been upgraded throughout that time with better tech, free of charge.
Other companies have to use suppliers too but they somehow manage to not have the same problems HL has. Seems like they've had NOTHING but problems since launching the first Hopper and I don't think the blame lies with anyone but them. Use better suppliers, make sure they're doing what they say they will. All part of business. Sure you could say it's due to lack of experience and they're still learning, but if that's the case they could've (and should've) paid someone to handle that for them who actually has an idea of what they're doing as well as what and who to avoid. Not to mention the fact that they're not even a new business anymore. They've been operating in some capacity since 2013.

If I don't have a working Hopper or a full refund for the original cost by the end of this month I will be filing a complaint with the Colorado Attorney General. Hate to do it, but they haven't even tried to give me an estimate or do anything to make it right and it has been over a year since I sent my Hopper in for repair. I hate to do it but paying full price for a vaporizer that worked maybe 2 months over a year ago isn't something I'm interested in. This isn't how a legitimate business operates no matter the size.
 
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Vapor_Eyes

taste buds
You and others like your wait time are the exception, not the norm from what I’ve read herein for 4-5 years.
I’m sorry but that’s not true. Look back through the thread. It wasn’t until the end of 2017 and the heater fiasco that RMAs started to take longer than three days. I am simply lucky I haven’t had to have an RMA since then except for a backend which fell apart and they immediately sent me a new one.

I don't think the blame lies with anyone but them. Use better suppliers, make sure they're doing what they say they will.

The heater supplier was not an issue for the first two or three years of production. Then they screwed HL over to save some money. How should HL have prevented that? Hire someone full-time to stand around at the factory and look over everyone’s shoulders? That seems like a colossal waste of resources. Especially since they had no reason to suspect that their long time supplier would change the materials used in the heater.
 

Vape Master

Formerly C3PO
Thanks for the article! Never saw that. My guess was around 50-60k but could be off and lower than the actual figure. Cool to have some substantive benchmark even a few years old.

I have the original mag charger for my pre order Ti and have only recently started using it in my car. I do think the magnet needs to be in place before the USB end is plugged in, otherwise no lights at all indicating it’s charging. I’ll keep an eye on this.:peace:

Glad to see your post, Happy Vaping. In the packaging, it notes there is a childproof mechanism. put the magnet on.... then unplug the USB side. When you plug it in it will charge like normal.

The magnetic circle has 2 sides one is more magnetic than the other, you may want to try both sides.
 
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