1. What does SSTB mean? See our glossary of acronyms.
    Dismiss Notice

Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by tdavie, Feb 2, 2010.

Tags:
  1. looney2nz

    looney2nz Research Geek, Mad Scientist

    Messages:
    766
    Location:
    So Cal
    yeah, it's all over the various sub-forums on the board.
     
    Ricardo likes this.
  2. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,700
    even with that preciseness just vaping a long time @ a low heat will eventually pull a lot of the actives out of there... it just takes more time and pulling heated air over the herb... I had an iolite that only hit 375 F and never could get the ABV dark with that vape... no way to get all of those actives out @ 375 but it was close
     
    John Coaltrain and Ricardo like this.
  3. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v4.0a (unstable) Staff Member

    Messages:
    9,092
    Location:
    Other side of your screen
    I edited your post to fix the link. This is the most appropriate place for this chart.

    This is the best chart I've seen for this information (partly because it references ranges rather than specific temperatures) but it's not ideal. Perhaps the biggest failure is the lack of any references describing how these temperatures were derived. For example, the warning about benzene repeats information that (as far as I can find) has been reported in only one paper, and no one has duplicated those results. I'm not disputing the finding, but it's an old report that still has no corroboration. (If anyone can direct me to something I would appreciate it.)

    I'd like to see the Celsius equivalents included. I'd also like supporting evidence for the benefits claimed. Again, I'm not disputing them, but I'd rather see references to peer-reviewed papers instead of claims that might well just be anecdotal.
     
  4. ejackyou

    ejackyou Hamilton

    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Ontario
    Sorry, but the Celsius Is included, but somehow got chopped of the Left side?

    Loney2nz says He knows where to find it.
    Maybe He can Post it?
     
  5. Entorwellian

    Entorwellian Member

    Messages:
    17
    I've been following the guidelines on health canada after legalization happened: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-can...professionals-cannabis-cannabinoids.html#a3.4

    Lots of good information on that site, but section 3.4 for Dosing - Vapourization has a bunch of cited studies on dosage and temperature. The temperatures cited range from 180 to 200, with about 190 being the average. If I had to pick one temperature to stick to, I'd probably pick 195 C. If I want to stretch out my high then I'll seperate it into two sessions with about 0.1g (about half of an arizer stem, lightly tamped down) of cannabis. The first one is at 180 C for a 10 minute session, then a second 10 minute session at 200 C to get the rest. Anything else is put in the ABV jar or discarded.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  6. breakingbad

    breakingbad New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Does the material of chamber and way of heating (convection,combustion) effects the perfect temp settings?
     
  7. adamster

    adamster Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    119
    Regarding Abv I read here its not a good idea to eat the actual in a baked goods like I usually mix with heated cheese is that any problem to eat the actual abv or should I strain it make an oil?
     
    Madri-Gal and DirtyD like this.
  8. Vapeur Rogue

    Vapeur Rogue Est. 2013- Never Lookin' Back

    Messages:
    296
    Location:
    Middangeard
    I made a coconut/ghee blend oil from mine, you can get much more mileage from that- and add sunflower lecithin too - but eating it should not be a problem.
     
  9. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,492
    @ejackyou

    Which is absolutely key to understanding what these numbers mean and what they don't mean.

    Without footnotes to the OG actual lab experiment test conditions, this info is more than useless, IMO....its misleading.

    A good while ago I spent a good amount of time trying to back track from the summary report upon which almost all of these charts are based back to the actual clinical experiments that provided the data with limited success.

    The success I did have showed that most of these temps were derived in a vacuum chamber under vacuum conditions with a pure sample of the compound in question. Others were done at sea level pressure of a standard atmosphere model (29.92 inches of mercury).

    None of them attempted to derive boiling point figures for these compounds mixed together and in a very complex plant material matrix.

    Use these charts as you wish, but a guide to compound specific vaping they are not....IMO (haha).
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  10. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,492
    Those temp charts all over the web are completely and utterly useless. They are ALL derived from multiple individual actual science studies which used widely varying conditions (i.e. sea level of standard atmosphere of 22.92 inches of mercury and vacuum) and use pure extracted samples of the individual compounds in question in order to determine boiling point.

    None of which is a mix of over 200 compounds residing in a very complex plant matrix structure.

    I hate these charts....they make people think that they can selectively extract which I believe to be a complete fallacy.

    Just saying...I personally would rather see those numbers go away rather than further perpetuate them in a vape app.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  11. warren0728

    warren0728 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    156
    do you do any type of temp stepping or do you just vape at a high enough temp to get all the goods on the first round?

    i only have one battery powered vape (PotV) Starry and i sometimes temp step with it but i really don't know if i am accomplishing much ...

    sorry this is a little off topic ... on topic i wouldn't mind trying an mv-1 ... but not sure about the long inhale times and the aesthetics don't do much for me (i'm finding i'm more attracted to wood)
     
  12. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,492
    Yes, I do believe that this generalization (^^) is useful but it falls apart at the level of detail that people want to use temp data for.

    Yes, which is still puzzling as science says that there is no differentiation between them....that there really isn't such a thing as sativa/indica and that this mostly falls into being superficial physical characteristics (e.g. long leafy buds vs tight dense buds or long leaf vs broad leaf). But, like most of us, to me there is a def difference in effect between vaping Jack Herer and Northern Lights, for example.

    Cheers
     
  13. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,492
    Pretty much the later as I vape almost exclusively at night for pain and sedation and I tend to want quick and hard hitting sessions. That's just a personal preference tied to my personal medical condition.

    But please ask yourself this question...for each and ever vape because it will likely be different...the question is "WTF are they measuring this temp"?

    Let's take the Volcano, for instance. I set my Digit Volcano for max temp of 446 F and pull a real bag of milk with about 10 draws as thick as any vape.

    So where is that temp measured? Well, they certainly are NOT measuring air temp entering the chamber on this full convection vape. Just look at it....it measure temp when you turn it on with the fan completely off. No, it has a thermocouple somewhere on the heater or more likely on the big ass aluminum heat sink that's in there.

    Now, we have a heat sink (please allow me that assumption) and a fan. Turn the fan on and air goes past the heat sink and picks up thermal energy. Does it pick it all up? Of course not. Will the air temp be raised to the set temp in the short length of the heat sink before it hits the load....I think common sense and a bit of knowledge about thermal dynamics says NO!

    So what is 446 F to me on my Volcano...its a relative setting related to its performance. That is, I like what I get out of it when the read out says 446 F....I don't care what the objective temp is...I just know that if I set it to 446 F, I get milk.

    Its very hard...or expensive...to have an instant read thermocouple in the air stream. Even expensive commercial ones used in the HVAC industry take some seconds to settle down at temp.

    Then look at the Mighty....the thermocouple is attached to the air path tube inside of the unit. Its absolutely measuring the temp of that metal tube. What is the air temp...who the fuck knows (well, maybe Stu as he seems to have a good bit of test kit). The air will, again, pick up thermal energy as it transits this...what....3-4 inch (max) tube? But how much....well, you can see if you suck on it like you are trying to remove chrome from a trailer hitch the air will transit this tube faster and have less time for thermal transfer and hence a lower temp. Slower = higher.

    This can well be seen with the FP SH I have. I can leave the temp on the controller at the same setting and manipulate AVB color by varying my draw speed.

    Now, full conduction vapes...yeah, they can put a TC on the outside of the oven and measure oven temp and if left alone long enough, everything (oven and load) will reach temp equalization with whatever is the set point (assuming that the vape is accurate) and that's that....but with any convection at all, its a very different story/

    Hope this is somewhat helpful.
     
  14. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

    Messages:
    12,394
    Disclaimer: My wife works for Ghost Vapes. Take that into consideration when reading my posts in this thread. I will attempt to present factual, impartial information on Ghost products, but won't blame you one bit if you think I am biased towards this company.

    My kind of discussion!

    I believe the air in the Volcano gets to temp very quickly...it's the herbs that take longer to reach temp. It's always the herbs - they're a shitty conductor. That's why it doesn't matter what vape you use, portables always seem to take some time to get things going. I only have one or two desktops that have the calories to instantly produce vapor.

    Indica/sativa - I can feel different effects, but it's the terpenes that create them. That would suggest that stronger differences between the two would be felt when at least the first hit or two are at lower temps to capture all the terps, instead of destroying some. I don't say this from a direct comparison of the two methods, just thinking out loud.
     
  15. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead High Standards

    Messages:
    4,616
    Location:
    The Full Spectrum
    I strongly considered this, only problem with this theory is combustion smokers note the same differences in effect and we all know they are flashing off nearly all of the terps with the lighter.
     
  16. arb

    arb Semi shaved ape

    Messages:
    1,124
    Location:
    Montana
    The physical expression of sativa or indica are all due to environmental conditions and human selection........that only applies to Landrace cultivars.
    The commercially available cannabis genetics are in reality a polymultihybrid cluster Fuck of about five different landraces.......mostly Afghan on the indica side.
    No matter the fancy new name genetically speaking...........sigh.
     
  17. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

    Messages:
    12,394
    Disclaimer: My wife works for Ghost Vapes. Take that into consideration when reading my posts in this thread. I will attempt to present factual, impartial information on Ghost products, but won't blame you one bit if you think I am biased towards this company.


    They’re getting some terps, especially joint smokers, as the smoke pulls some off the herb as it travels up the joint. But, all I’m saying is the effects could be stronger, not missing, and I think a true comparison could only be done with vapor - no smoke.

    Actually, I heard some other crazy shit the other day that would suggest we’re all full of shit! So much to learn right now!
     
  18. Some-new-user

    Some-new-user Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    217
    Some good points here friends. Sorry if it's derailing the thread a little talking about the material rather than the hardware.

    I think I need to do more actual research in to this. I do use other herbs like lavender and I regularly use hemp tea (not cbd bud, hemp leaf tea) it helps me have a vape during the day without the worry of having stinky bud at work. I feel like the UK is still very uneducated in general regarding herb and vaping. E.g. I can take a starry to work with a tub of lavender and if I get security searched I can clearly say it's lavender. I don't think anyone could argue that it's not or that it's anything 'dodgy'.

    If anyone can point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.

    I do feel like certain strains have different effects for me. I have been able to get 'exodus' cheese it does seem to sedate me more than other strains.

    This does make me question a lot of things and maybe @stickstones is right maybe we're all full of crap. We're all just sat here pretending that this and that does one thing or the other and its all placebo/made up in our head.

    I guess if it works for you then that's all we're really aiming for in the long run.

    On a lighter more on topic note I love vaping. I love all of these devices and take my hat off to these companies who have actually designed and sold these units. Shame about the haze. I'm sure they have passion, best wishes to all.
     
    Madri-Gal, ClearBlueLou and arb like this.
  19. warren0728

    warren0728 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    156
    thanks baron ... that all makes sense ... i guess i could see vaping at a low tempertures to get more flavor and then hotter temps for full effects ... but i agree that trying to fine tune to get specific cannabinoids, etc just isn't realistic.
     
    Madri-Gal, arb and Some-new-user like this.
  20. Dragonlore

    Dragonlore Active Member

    Messages:
    36
    I agree about the boiling point charts.
    most people don't care about specific boiling points, biosolubility, etc.
    I also didn't intend to imply fine tuning to a specific hydrocarbon.

    If at yellow 1, 2, 3 you'll be primarily vaping and feeling the effects of hydrocarbons that vaporize below the level it's set at, why not show what those hydrocarbons are and their perspective effects and/or flavors. Specific temps are not important, just low 338(170), med 365(185), high 392(200).

    Why not help people understand why the higher temp effects may be different, and the components responsible.

    Much like different plants in the nightshade family contain differing average amounts of nicotine.
    Different strains and phenotypes will have varying amounts of the same components.
    Some will always have a tendency to have higher levels of specific hydrocarbons.

    no charts, just basic info.
    As has been said.
    Who knows? Tomorrow we might find out all the effects are caused by an enzyme also found in Peruvian mouse farts.
     
    Some-new-user and arb like this.
  21. sickmanfraud

    sickmanfraud Well-Known Member

    Can you please point me to an article or website where this is explained?

    Also, what is the legal position on terpenes?
     
    arb likes this.
  22. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

    Messages:
    12,394
    Check out the Trichome Institute for some really interesting info.

    I'm not sure what you mean by legal position.
     
    Hippie Dickie and arb like this.
  23. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v4.0a (unstable) Staff Member

    Messages:
    9,092
    Location:
    Other side of your screen
    Terpenes are present in a large variety of plants, evergreens in particular. There is no "legal position" on them as such, although if they're produced for human consumption then they are subject to the same medical and food regulations as anything else.
     
    arb, Madri-Gal and Hogni like this.
  24. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

    Messages:
    2,621
    Location:
    where the Cube rules!
    looks like all the info is behind a pay wall … do you know if there is info about the lipids in trichomes, or the other components?

    to get back on topic - i wonder if the lipids vaporize at a higher temp than THC, so the wispy vapor at the end of the session is really not what i want to inhale. i can't seem to find this information (yet).

    i don't bother to temp-step my sessions - i do stir after the first 3 minutes, and get several more decent hits. the vial holds about .1 g which gives a dozen hits or so.
     
  25. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

    Messages:
    12,394
    If there is, I haven’t leveled up that hi yet!
     
    arb and Hippie Dickie like this.

Support FC, visit our trusted friends and sponsors