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Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by tdavie, Feb 2, 2010.

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  1. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    Yes and compound into that the fact that conduction vapes tend to get darker ABV than convection ones, or at least that's the impression I have (spare hot spots of course, those can get quite dark)

    But the bud color has a great impact. Yellowish and light apple green ones end up lighter brown for instance. Depends also what kind of "autumnal colors" the plant colas took when she finished (pink, brown, purple or blueish hues etc)
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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  2. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    I have no experience with water cured ( that I know of?) but generally when I see no more vapor it is also dark brown too in my case.. I vape it high temp as possible to get all actives out... I've actually combusted twice with a vape and it was like burnt hair gross... my da-vinci og combusted on accident twice LOL... I still use the dark brown left over for ABV peanut "juice" and it works if enough quantity is used at once lol..
     
  3. VaPurrDo

    VaPurrDo Member

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    my vape doesnt show temperatur but i just tried a meat thermometer on it and i seem to run it around 427 i get thick tasty hits with a moderate draw and with a slow draw it browns the whole bucket easily
     
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  4. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    Interesting remarks. Allowing to control the air flow rate is I think the only way to enable precise temperature control. It took me a while to be able to phrase it precisely.

    With conduction vapes with feedback loop temperature regulation, the temperature is always at or below the set temperature. They are able to usually control pretty well how hot the bowl is, but if you draw too fast you can overcome the conductivity rate of the bowl material (usually ceramic or stainless steel) and thus the temperature of the material inside the bowl drops below the set-point.

    Back then there were already two schools: open air flow like the Ascent or restricted air flow like the Solo (to name the two extremes) With the former it was nearly impossible for non initiated users to get good hits, it required quite the self control to create the regulation, otherwise nearly all of them drew too hard or fast and got only wispy vapor. With the Solo it was the inverse, the vape created the right amount of restriction such that it was easy to get vapor, if you drew too fast the vape would restrict you so you were always in the right zone. But of course this came at the cost of comfort with many people finding the restriction unbearable (the famous golf ball through a straw comparison)

    Fast forward to convection vapes and we find ourselves in a comparable situation excepted it's reversed: they tend to be at or above the set temperature, because they can not adapt to the flow rate because they don't measure it (some vapes have draw detection but to my knowledge none has any real air flow rate sensor, as it's either pricey and/or impractical)

    We also have open air flow vapes like the Milaana, where you have to create the restriction yourself, either by forcing to slow down your draw or by letting the screen clog a bit. At the other end we have the CFV / SwiftPro which have the exact same characteristic as @Prolusio described above: if you force too much you're not getting more, so in a way they ensure you are always drawing inside a very narrow rate band.

    And this is the key! The SwiftPro is the only temperature regulated full convection vape that I have that is able to create the "level depleted" effect that I have with my Ascent and other properly regulated conduction vapes (i.e. you can set a given temperature level, deplete completely the level until vapor production almost stops, then as soon as you raise the temperature to next level, production restarts, proof of excellent regulation)

    Even with the Project or the iHeat using TC mode with good mods and/or firmware, it's the same as with my manually regulated convection vapes: it's is possible to extract the entire bowl at any given temperature setting provided you get enough time... because naturally you will draw harder and longer as the session advances and this is what creates the "automatic temperature stepping" effect. It's not the (very limited) amount of conduction created by the SS or glass bowl (proof is, I get the same with @Alan's wood stem in the iHeat and the bowl is almost cold at the end) (or well, more precisely it's the inverse, the bowl mass is robbing less and less heat from the system over time, but it's not that, the effect is minimal)

    Without draw rate sensing, even with very good temperature regulation at the coil(s)/heater (and in fact the better the regulation the truer the following is) the temperature at the material will rise the harder you draw. The heater will keep heating more and more air at the right temperature (if properly regulated it doesn't drop much or at all, especially if you give it ample power like we do) thus more hot air is available, the bowl material receives more calories, extraction temperature gets higher and this is what gives us the temp stepping (@Shit Snacks this should put words on your "just a number" remark)

    So if we want true temperature regulation with (on-demand or not) convection we need either:
    1) use flow rate sensing on top of temperature sensing in a closed loop
    2) have the vape create a flow rate restriction (at the cost of people complaining like for the CFV)
    3) force ourselves to always draw at the exact same rate and strength (at the cost of requiring a technique and being not user-friendly and noobs complaining they got nothing or that it's not working)


    PS: (3) can be eased by using so much power that the heater can't be overwhelmed, allowing to draw at nearly any rate (like the Tubo, but at the cost of excessive power consumption) but it doesn't solve the "temperature regulation at the bowl location" aspect

    PS2: with conduction the important variables are known: it's based on the surface area, and the heater is fixed so it becomes a constant. With area, coef of conductivity and temperature, we have all important parameters. With convection we are dealing with a moving mass of air, but we just monitor the temperature and not the flow rate, it's evident that we are missing half of the equation.
     
  5. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v4.0a (unstable) Staff Member

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    This is off-topic for the Ghost thread so I moved it here.

    All the device can do is try to maintain a consistent temperature at the sensor. This is a) difficult, and b) unnecessary. It is a level of precision that is overwhelmed by the variables in load and air flow. The payload of your herb is released over a range of temperatures, not at a precise point. Moving the centre of this range one or two degrees (even Celsius) will not appreciably change anything.
     
  6. ShayWhiteGrow

    ShayWhiteGrow vAPEhOPPER

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    Sorta like riding up then down a roller coaster hill. Start low gradually increase to max then decrease down the hill:D
     
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  7. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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  8. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v4.0a (unstable) Staff Member

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  9. VaPurrDo

    VaPurrDo Member

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    great post... i think its true that precision in temperature doesnt matter as long as your not over the combustion point, and as long as you are getting the range of vapor wanted
     
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  10. ChaiLifeOR

    ChaiLifeOR Member

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    I’ve done similar research with various vapes. The most was done with a Vapir Rise Ultimate 2.0(convection) that died on me 3 months in, Vapir told me to f myself, and then I let a tweaker who said he could fix it rip me off for $75, and the broken heating element and motherboard he was supposed to fix, all so that I could preserve that research.

    When I replaced it, I couldn’t afford anything with nearly the same bells and whistles, and I realized that my research is done with the Vapir was useless, because it essentially only applied to *that* machine.

    My Pax 3 is probably my most well documented current machine, and even with single degree temp control on that, they admit that there’s a +/- 10* differential. And that’s just in regard to the element itself. Nothing to do with the actual temp of the herb in the oven.

    Basically what I’m saying is that though this research is fun, and I think that most of us that get heavily into vaping do it, unless your baseline machine is one of the few top of the line models where people are in agreement that the temp displayed is actually the temp the herb is at, it only applies to the machine the research was done on.

    That being said, it does do a big service for owners of *that* vape, so it is worth it. I just don’t believe that the results are universally applicable.
     
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