Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

my vape doesnt show temperatur but i just tried a meat thermometer on it and i seem to run it around 427 i get thick tasty hits with a moderate draw and with a slow draw it browns the whole bucket easily

 

Interesting remarks. Allowing to control the air flow rate is I think the only way to enable precise temperature control. It took me a while to be able to phrase it precisely.

With conduction vapes with feedback loop temperature regulation, the temperature is always at or below the set temperature. They are able to usually control pretty well how hot the bowl is, but if you draw too fast you can overcome the conductivity rate of the bowl material (usually ceramic or stainless steel) and thus the temperature of the material inside the bowl drops below the set-point.

Back then there were already two schools: open air flow like the Ascent or restricted air flow like the Solo (to name the two extremes) With the former it was nearly impossible for non initiated users to get good hits, it required quite the self control to create the regulation, otherwise nearly all of them drew too hard or fast and got only wispy vapor. With the Solo it was the inverse, the vape created the right amount of restriction such that it was easy to get vapor, if you drew too fast the vape would restrict you so you were always in the right zone. But of course this came at the cost of comfort with many people finding the restriction unbearable (the famous golf ball through a straw comparison)

Fast forward to convection vapes and we find ourselves in a comparable situation excepted it's reversed: they tend to be at or above the set temperature, because they can not adapt to the flow rate because they don't measure it (some vapes have draw detection but to my knowledge none has any real air flow rate sensor, as it's either pricey and/or impractical)

We also have open air flow vapes like the Milaana, where you have to create the restriction yourself, either by forcing to slow down your draw or by letting the screen clog a bit. At the other end we have the CFV / SwiftPro which have the exact same characteristic as @Prolusio described above: if you force too much you're not getting more, so in a way they ensure you are always drawing inside a very narrow rate band.

And this is the key! The SwiftPro is the only temperature regulated full convection vape that I have that is able to create the "level depleted" effect that I have with my Ascent and other properly regulated conduction vapes (i.e. you can set a given temperature level, deplete completely the level until vapor production almost stops, then as soon as you raise the temperature to next level, production restarts, proof of excellent regulation)

Even with the Project or the iHeat using TC mode with good mods and/or firmware, it's the same as with my manually regulated convection vapes: it's is possible to extract the entire bowl at any given temperature setting provided you get enough time... because naturally you will draw harder and longer as the session advances and this is what creates the "automatic temperature stepping" effect. It's not the (very limited) amount of conduction created by the SS or glass bowl (proof is, I get the same with @Alan's wood stem in the iHeat and the bowl is almost cold at the end) (or well, more precisely it's the inverse, the bowl mass is robbing less and less heat from the system over time, but it's not that, the effect is minimal)

Without draw rate sensing, even with very good temperature regulation at the coil(s)/heater (and in fact the better the regulation the truer the following is) the temperature at the material will rise the harder you draw. The heater will keep heating more and more air at the right temperature (if properly regulated it doesn't drop much or at all, especially if you give it ample power like we do) thus more hot air is available, the bowl material receives more calories, extraction temperature gets higher and this is what gives us the temp stepping (@Shit Snacks this should put words on your "just a number" remark)

So if we want true temperature regulation with (on-demand or not) convection we need either:
1) use flow rate sensing on top of temperature sensing in a closed loop
2) have the vape create a flow rate restriction (at the cost of people complaining like for the CFV)
3) force ourselves to always draw at the exact same rate and strength (at the cost of requiring a technique and being not user-friendly and noobs complaining they got nothing or that it's not working)


PS: (3) can be eased by using so much power that the heater can't be overwhelmed, allowing to draw at nearly any rate (like the Tubo, but at the cost of excessive power consumption) but it doesn't solve the "temperature regulation at the bowl location" aspect

PS2: with conduction the important variables are known: it's based on the surface area, and the heater is fixed so it becomes a constant. With area, coef of conductivity and temperature, we have all important parameters. With convection we are dealing with a moving mass of air, but we just monitor the temperature and not the flow rate, it's evident that we are missing half of the equation.

 

Sorta like riding up then down a roller coaster hill. Start low gradually increase to max then decrease down the hill

 

I made a post recently elsewhere that would be well suited to this topic, at least when it comes to precision of temperature regulation in the case of convection vapes (or their lack thereof)

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/custom-carbless-vapcap-ti-stems.25324/page-4#post-1167794

 

great post... i think its true that precision in temperature doesnt matter as long as your not over the combustion point, and as long as you are getting the range of vapor wanted

 

I’ve done similar research with various vapes. The most was done with a Vapir Rise Ultimate 2.0(convection) that died on me 3 months in, Vapir told me to f myself, and then I let a tweaker who said he could fix it rip me off for $75, and the broken heating element and motherboard he was supposed to fix, all so that I could preserve that research.

When I replaced it, I couldn’t afford anything with nearly the same bells and whistles, and I realized that my research is done with the Vapir was useless, because it essentially only applied to *that* machine.

My Pax 3 is probably my most well documented current machine, and even with single degree temp control on that, they admit that there’s a +/- 10* differential. And that’s just in regard to the element itself. Nothing to do with the actual temp of the herb in the oven.

Basically what I’m saying is that though this research is fun, and I think that most of us that get heavily into vaping do it, unless your baseline machine is one of the few top of the line models where people are in agreement that the temp displayed is actually the temp the herb is at, it only applies to the machine the research was done on.

That being said, it does do a big service for owners of *that* vape, so it is worth it. I just don’t believe that the results are universally applicable.

 

Temps vary to say the least

 

Just tried some ABV threw my Volcano at temps 420 degrees, 428, and 438. The first two bags definitely had vapor left. Third bag had less but still some. Didn't notice any bad taste that some complain about and the high was slight i'd say maybe a 2. Looks like it's time to make some edibles or oil

 

I just realized something. I vaped CBD dry herb and am now asking myself "Did this even do anything?"

I'm wondering if vaping CBD herb even does anything because vapes were made to lift off the THC off the bud, when in reality CBD is herb that u probably won't feel the full effect of unless you smoke it?

 

I definitely get something from my cbd only herb. It is subtle but a definite calmness washes over me.

 

the thing with herb is whole plant compounds and the entourage of all those compounds including and especially cbd or thc depending what is bred in the strain... if its whole plant bred for CBD you will have terpenes too that cause effects etc... And CBd is a psychoactive compound it is just an antagonist of immune system instead of THC being an agonist compound in the central nervous system

 

um... citations? So you're saying CBD would exacerbate folks with autoimmune diseases? THC as an agonist, to what specifically? This is all a bit fuzzy to me

CBD as fas I know is non-psychoactive (aside from it's anxiolytic and antidepressive effects), it might raise or free up the levels of anandamide in the body (naturally occurring euphoric endocannabinoid), but I've never felt the 'bliss' effect and I've done rather prodigious levels of CBD and THC alone and together.

Yep, the fingerprint of each 'varietal' includes the terpenes and they do indeed have physiological effects as well as psychoactive effects. I pine for the days when we have certified testing that includes CBDa, CBD, THCa, THC, THCv, CBC, CBG, CBN and terpenes (not to mention ALL contaminants!).

 

by psychoactive I mean able to pass blood brain barrier which cbd does... cbd-a for example does not nor thc-a etc...
CBD is an antagonist compound @ cb2 receptors...
THC is an agonist compound @ cb1 receptors...
So, CBD antagonizes immune cells in the immune system while THC agonizes neuronal cells in the Brain and then peripherally to reproductive organs. it is why effects are really noticed with thc and not so much with cbd...
terpenes direct the bio-active capabilities of thc and cbd somewhat
I've seen examples where CBD @ large dose can via cellular cross talk inhibit anandamide production and anandamide is an agonist compound naturally @ cb1 and cb2 respectively.
so many reports man, no direct citations for this exact info but it is known..

any compound that is capable of passing the blood brain barrier is psychoactive... it is just that CBD does not directly target ( activate/ agonize ) cb receptors causing immediate effects like thc does... cbd sits on the receptor as an antagonist agent

 

ok, now I capish where you were going with this.

I was only thinking of the blood brain barrier crossing as psychoactive in the sense of the mind, not just the act of crossing.

y'all are a very cool bunch, just got to say, I so enjoy civil discourse with folks and rarely see any trolling behavior here. good on everyone!

 

This is a long thread so sorry if this has already been posted. I found this article on the different temps for terpenes interesting: https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/understanding-cannabis-testing

 

So is there a point for me to vape CBD flower or should I be smoking it for the strongest effect?

 

....................................................................................................
Vaping of any and all cannabis flowers is 100X better than combusting---don't do it.

Smoking any cannabis flower ( CBD only or THC + CBD) yields many toxic nasty chemicals, in fact, 90% + is nasty by-products and about 10% the CBD and other good compounds . Vaping is the reverse, with about 90% the goodies and less than 10% misc compounds. Some estimates also indicate smoking destroys about 40% of the goodies.

Vaping is much more efficient with your herbs.

The "strong effect" that folks feel when combusting is your body going into "emergency mode/ I'm being invaded by dozens of toxic chemicals mode". It's a rush, but a bad bad rush... as your body reacts to the toxic bombardment.
Vape it

 

CBD's boiling point isn't even much higher than THC's. So it won't be much harder to vape. Still more efficient
THCV would be more difficult to vaporize. But I'd still much rather vaporize at a high temp, to really vape it, than combust. and it's possible that it's not even necessary to go above 400F to get most of the thcv?

 

if I recall correctly, THCv vaporizes @ 428F.

 

plus, these temps actually reflect a near vacuum (Merck).
we need to measure vape/boil points at SEA LEVEL, should be quite informative.