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Thermovape Cera (Original thread, closed because of chaos)

Discussion in 'Portable Vaporizers' started by SameOldTim, Nov 1, 2012.

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  1. ThermoVape

    ThermoVape Vaporizer Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Nor Cal
    Jam,

    Here is our most recent video. We are going to be shooting some more short, old school Cera Videos, we are working on it today, so we should be able to get something up by Monday.



    Cheers,

    Noah
     
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  2. jambandphan03

    jambandphan03 Vapor Goddess

    Messages:
    5,487
    :tup: Thanks Noah!! :D
     
  3. havealight101

    havealight101 Norski

    Messages:
    939
    They sent me an email saying it got messed up, checked my account and its as if it never happened. So I guess I'm good?
    I think I'm in the same boat with the vape journey, in the end I want three units: Cloud for desktop, xxxx for portable, and solo for back-up. So I have one hole I'm trying to fill, the inh came close, but definitely not a purist vape.
    BTW, yes, looking for a portable cloud, because a big part of stealth, for me,I s how fast one can vape X amount of botanicals and have it back in the pocket.
    Best wishes,
    HAL
     
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  4. NoName

    NoName Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    219
    Noah,

    Nice vid. Nice to see some familiar TET faces in it. Looking forward to the 'old school' videos. Btw, was it the e-liquid attachment being used in the video?

    Regards,

    NoName
     
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  5. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,364
    Location:
    Left Coast
    I just got back from a serious test in the garden. Wonderful day, good sun, lots of birds for the cat to watch and me with the Cera, a fresh battery charge, a load of Trainwreck and my stopwatch. What followed amazed me, sorry HAL I don't think this one's for you unless we can run it in a different mode, but I was seriously impressed with the run.

    I actually think there's a little magic going on this time friends, I'll get to that in a bit. For now, here's what I swear happened (for sure I'm going to try to repeat it) as best I can describe. Understand to some extent (I hope under control) the experimenter is part of the experiment.....

    I freshly charged the black battery on the charger they provide (different from the prior WF-188 which I like a lot), TV is convinced this charger gets a little longer life from a charge. I wiped the bowl out with a paper towel (no particular reason...) and put in a full bowl, but not packed in any way, of fine ground dry bud. It weighed 98mg, close enough to .1 grams for jazz. This is, I think, nearly ideal for this bud. Less (.06 grams) is harder to get to vape well and more (.13) seems to not do as well. I did not wipe the accumulated 'wand hash' from the underside of the MP as I sometimes have, buttoned it up, took it outside, took my chair, started the stopwatch and keyed it on. This time the idea was to sip at it as I felt inclined, no rush, no effort to get loaded in a hurry. Not quite like you'd sip on coffee as you read the paper, but something like it if you follow.

    Anyway, over the course of 20 minutes (OK 19 minutes 51 seconds) I took say two hits a minute? I'm not exaggerating here, it never left my hand, it was easily two dozen hits. Because I was hitting it so lightly in terms of flow rates, flavor lasted a very long time. At 8 minutes in I noticed that while I could start to taste the nutty taste of some of the bud getting well done, I could also detect the original Trainwreck taste. Just a bit, but it made the hit seem more fresh than it would be otherwise. The last hits were potent. Not huge clouds of course, but substantial and easy to see in the noon time sun. No doubt about it, it was producing when I keyed it off. Not because it was done, but because I was. Off a tenth of a gram!! It was also getting impossible to hold onto. I was hanging on the last inch of the body and the metal end cap before I carefully pushed the button off and set it down.

    As has been pointed out it cools slowly as well as heating that way. Several minutes later I decided to come in and report and discovered experimentally it's a lot easier to drop a hot Cera into your shirt pocket than it is to pluck it back out when you discover it wasn't all that good an idea to start with. No real need for anyone to repeat this test, I'm pretty confident of the results......

    Anyway, to the magic part. One of the things Noah loves to go on with when you pull his string is how aerosol particle size is critical to uptake. He's a Doctor you know, he thinks about stuff like that. When you look at the numbers, there's like maybe 20 mg of THC in that load, I need maybe 4 or 5 of that? Some is loss from residual that doesn't vape off and ends up in ABV. Some I exhale, some gets absorbed. In this case it seems like maybe 20 or so percent overall? My thinking is some clever optimizing of size is going on. The bigger particles are being 'recycled' inside the bowl until they escape as more useful (less wasteful) I can absorb rather than blow out again.

    Normally it seems like you absorb less than you blow out?

    Maybe it's all in my mind. But whatever, I just got blasted on an otherwise small amount for me.....or at least I think.....

    OF
     
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  6. BLAZING OG

    BLAZING OG Vaping is a way of life!

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    Sounds like a winner, maybe they will have a hotter core option for cloud chasers!!!!!!:tup:
     
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  7. weedemon

    weedemon enthusiast

    Messages:
    2,758
    Location:
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    OF, thanks for the post! Ok, so you are telling me the following.

    1. the cera get quite hot to the touch, so much so you can't hold on to it? doesn't the mouth piece burn your lips when you try to hit it then?

    2. you are getting more bang from your buck on the hits because you were taking many smaller rips rather than going for big hauls?

    I would like to ask you this. Is the cera capable of vaporizing the load at a faster rate if someone was in a rush, and tried to take bigger more intense rips off of it?

    the way you write really flows, It's as if you are a novelist, poet or something. But as such I have difficulty understanding your messages sometimes.

    please help me further understand! :)


    ================
    also on a related topic, but not targeted at you OF; in the newest video... I didn't like how they criticized and pictured the competition. Feels like a nut shot. and I think Thermovape should be classier than that because I already respect the company.
     
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  8. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    12,364
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    That's an excellent point. There's a 'fine tuning' that's going on right now, same as happened with the other products. Eventually I expect several test cores of different powers. Hopefully by then other testers will also be coming on line as more test units are assembled. They're already targeted a power based on their testing to date, I'll be getting a step two hotter and cooler to work with in the next week or two. Sometime just before the first shipments are getting their cores built a decision on the official power will be made. I'm told the one I have now is 20% over the current 'best guess' at 12 Watts, I think for the leisurely pace I'm using now this is too much. It's generating more heat than I need and that's just making the body get hotter faster. Cutting back some on that should not only increase the battery life but make the sucker easier to hold for longer sessions.

    The Cloud Chasers aren't into quarter hour sessions as a rule. I bet they're long done with it before a hotter heater can heat the body too much. My guess is after the rush of the first units is over they'll be some lively business in other powers going on (remember TV was very supportive of this last time, willing to build most any reasonable core on request). My guess is the same thing will happen (perhaps the other way) with the oil cart. I bet when that sucker gets rolling it's going to be a serious handful. I'm betting even a couple of the diehard Cloud Chasers will be reaching for the 'chicken switch' that doesn't exist.....

    While I obviously can hold it (I haven't dropped it yet) it gets uncomfortable to hold progressively as you run it. Heat works down from the core so hitting it makes no difference, I left it running with no load and it still got as hot in the same time frame. The MP heat depends on draw. The cap, more than the MP, gets too hot first. However I've stuck an inch long piece of tube on mine and that moves the hot part far enough away so it's not an issue. One interesting note, the sucker reflects sun very well. Even cold you can close you eyes and bring it up to your cheek and feel the heat reflect off that small curved surface! You could probably make a very interesting solar furnace from that stuff if you could afford it.

    2. Not exactly. Just taking small hits in MFLB or other similar size vape would not have done that good a job I don't think. I think, cloud for cloud, that vapor was more effective than I'm used to. It's not completely spent (it was still working when I turned it off) although it's pretty well cooked but I'd normally have done a second LB trench in similar conditions to get the same sort of effect I think. And my standard LB load is a weighed 125mg (I put between .120 and .130 loads in one dram vials 20 or so at a time) so that's a quarter gram against a tenth. Big difference. I'm thinking I just got more 'right size' vapor with Cera gram for gram. Maybe.

    Yes, you can go faster, I've not had much luck with that yet, but I think it'll come in on par with T1 in that regard, second seat to Evolution. Time will tell that part.

    OF
     
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  9. Haywood

    Haywood Onward Thru the Fog

    Messages:
    552
    Thanks for, and keep up with, the great reports, at least as much as you can without falling down.

    It will be interesting to see if you can discover a methodology that allows for enough heater off time to keep the outside ceramic temperature down enough to handle at all times. Sort of figuring out the duty cycle for power on mode. Since the ceramic formula TV is using seems to be slow to change its temperature (you mentioned slow to get hot and slow to cool down), maybe once the ceramic in the bowl area reaches a certain temp, some short duration power pulsing can keep the core at a suitable temp for vaping, while the outer ceramic that your hand contacts has enough time to cool off in the surrounding air that it never gets too hot to comfortably hold. Or maybe not...

    I'm really looking forward to the oil core, and I suspect I may stick with my T1 and the high power SV core I'm having rewound (if I ever get it to the post office) for my herb.

    Oh, and though it does NOT come with any protection circuitry, you and the TV gang might want to check out the thread on the new Panasonic battery that JKA mentioned, if you haven't already. There are discharge curves posted now, and the cell itself is looking very promising. That said, I also trust in TV's battery judgement implicitly; they have been spot on in their selection in the past, and there's no reason to believe that has changed.
     
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  10. BLAZING OG

    BLAZING OG Vaping is a way of life!

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    Or maybe they are using those exact cells, Panasonic is in fact japanese, only difference if i recall , tv mentioned 3000 mah not 3400 mah???? hmmmmm :shrug:
     
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  11. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    You're welcome, thanks for the kind words. I'm happy to be helping out with this at many levels, but as you suggest avoiding the falling down part is very important to me personally. I don't even have one of those 'I've fallen and can't get up' things....yet.

    For sure duty cycle is a control. I'd rather start out with a lower heater if that can be made to work, I think it would be very neat to have techniques that don't involve using the switch to throttle stuff. If we can, of course. Good thoughts.

    Could well be, Panasonic is a biggie as I understand it, a serious player in the laptop battery pack business (which depends on the same basic cells).

    Off hand, I wouldn't expect the best battery for our use to have the highest mAh rating in the line for the reasons we've discussed. Much like the AW brand IMR 14500s we're so fond of are 100 or even 200 mAh lower than their competitors.

    OF
     
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  12. JoeKickass

    JoeKickass Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,833
    The flashlight guys love Panasonic and they aren't too dim :lol:

    Also, if you do like to run your battery until it dies, here are the same cells with protection: http://www.orbtronic.com/protected-3400mah-18650-li-ion-battery-panasonic-ncr18650B-orbtronic
    but the minimum order is two so it's not cheap...

    AW brand batteries are also built with Panasonic cells: http://www.lighthound.com/AW-18650-Protected-3100-mAh-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery-_p_3954.html
     
  13. ThermoVape

    ThermoVape Vaporizer Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Nor Cal
    Very glad you are enjoying your Cera so far. A few comments.

    That Black battery is the Japanese made cell, (with final protection assembly done here in California) that is shipping with the first run of pre-sale Ceras. I just want folks to know that is the same battery they will be getting if they ordered the battery with their kit. The final production batteries will have a higher grade overwrap (durability improvement), and true button top style positive contact (cosmetic change, functional requirement). Otherwise the Black batteries you are using are the same exact cell with the same exact 2C protection circuitry. So your experience with that battery should give people a very clear idea of what to expect.

    Another quick note on batteries. There are many 18650 batteries on the market, and almost none are created equal. The battery we are selling with the Cera is absolutely the highest quality, and best value 18650 you can purchase for this application. This is simply because we are using a Japanese made cell (Japanese Lithium has a higher purity and increased stability in my experience, and Japanese manufacturing is legendary for quality control, we both remember the roots of TPS, and it's offspring of lean manufacturing). This cell powers millions of laptops safely every day, and that performance history gives us confidence. Furthermore, we have the final cell assembly, including the protection circuitry, terminal connections, and insulative wrapping done here, to our exact specifications. Our specs are the toughest in the industry, and for a reason, we always work to set the highest standard we possible can for safety, and hope that other manufacturers follow our lead. Also having the cells assembled right down the road from where we make the Ceras, allows us to deliver performance with a clear understanding of the batteries capabilities.

    There will certainly be cheaper batteries available from other sources. However we want all fo our customers to know that you will not find a better value in terms of overall quality. We are not in the business of making money off of batteries, any one who has looked at our historic pricing of Tenergy RCR123a batteries will see that. Like the Cera, when you purchase a battery from us, what you are paying for actually arrives in a package, a very high quality cell, with final assembly done right here in the USa. We are proud that even our batteries help create American Jobs.

    I'll get of my battery soapbox... and hop onto my particle size one... ;)

    I cannot resist making a comment on your experience. You are of course correct and I have a particle size soap box have been known to stand on. I feel that one of the important things we do as a company is Translational Research, it is our goal to utilize the best science, and turn that science into something people can use, a product, and in this example the Cera specifically. There is indeed a particle size/extraction/efficiency that has been optimized with the Cera. The magic lies in her DNA.

    To be honest, we stand on the shoulders of giant, the tens thousands of physicians, scientists, and others who have spent decades researching and studying the many disciplines we draw from to develop our devices. It is the work of that global collective of knowledge that provided us with the starting point. Our achievement is turning that science into usable technology.

    So we knew that from the research and literature, that Short Flow Path Rapid Convection Extraction is currently considered the gold standard for safe, effective, combustion/Carbon Monoxide free delivery of desired voltile compounds from a botanical substrate, with theoretical extraction rates at >90% (combustion = 40%, Conduction lands somewhere between combustion and convection). So we knew at the start what our goal was for a portable loose-leaf vaporizer. The T1 acheived that goal, we think the Cera makes it usable for almost anyone.

    The Cera is a short flow path, rapid extraction, convection vaporizer. Based on the science that serves as her DNA, she should simply outperform all other vaporizer in terms of extraction. It is simply a matter of methodology.

    We know that we stand on the shoulders of others hard work, we feel we are an extension of that collective effort, and we all benefit from the innovation that draws life from scientific discovery. The translation of those discoveries into usable, accessible products is our daily work at Thermo-Essence.

    So, I certainly think we put some magic in the Cera. I just want to make sure to share the credit. We have very few secrets, our approach is actual fairly simple. We start with a clear understanding of the science, we then look to the material sciences to fnd absolutely the best materials for the application, and then we control quality by building each one by hand. We like to create jobs and opportunity in the process, and our ultimate goal is to help as many people as we can never smoke again (that would be our line for small company speed dating).

    I will be around to answer any questions while Tim is out for a little while. If I miss something please just remind me.


    Thank you! Cheers,

    Noah
     
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  14. ThermoVape

    ThermoVape Vaporizer Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    509
    Location:
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    The Orbtronic will not outperform the 2900 mAh we sell with the Cera (I believe the Orbtronic are also a 2C, which is our recommended spec). Panasonic and Samsung batteries are top performing cells in our bench tests. However the 3100 mAh Panasonic does not perform as well as the 2900 mAh Panasonic. This (as OF mentioned in a previous post) is typical for cells.

    Panasonic cells are Made in Japan, and I'll say we have more then a little experience with them ;)

    Samsung cells are made in Korea, and also perform very well. I'll say we opted to have not quite so much continuing experience with them.

    Makse sure any cell you use has the good old, standard button top connection.

    DO NOT use any UNPROTECTED Li-Ion (Li-Co, ICR, Traditional Lithium, Standard Lithium) batteries that are Unprotected. The Cera is designed for a 2C protection circuit.

    Cheers,

    Noah
     
  15. Futuretvowner

    Futuretvowner Active Member

    Messages:
    358
    Wow the Cera seems really great so far. The only thing that concerns me is that it sounds like it gets pretty darn hot. Would you say that the Cera gets as hot as the T1 does?
     
  16. PB88123

    PB88123 Vaporist

    Messages:
    536
    Good info ThermoVape. The next big thing is almost here.
     
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  17. ThermoVape

    ThermoVape Vaporizer Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Nor Cal
    Jam,

    The Cera stays MUCH cooler then a T1. If you ran a T1 fro 20 minutes strait it would be extremely hot. You would not be able to touch it.

    The Cera also does not need to be run "All on." It can be turned off in between inhalations. I use the side Safety Switch as my on/off when I am vaping the Cera.

    Cheers,

    Noah
     
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  18. Cheerful Dub

    Cheerful Dub Spaced Station

    Messages:
    105
    Location:
    Midwest
    Every time I think I can't be more impressed with TET I am proven incorrect :lol:

    I agree that we are privileged to witness this evolution, it is also very gracious and wonderfully transparent of the team and OF to continue their testing dialog for all of us here to enjoy. Although it is currently on my brain due to having just read Critical Path, the more information shared by Noah and Tim about their vision the more I am reminded of a quote from Bucky:

    I think we can all agree counter culture exposure and harm reduction are in large part necessary survival activities that humanity must be engaged in to fully express our potential. As ugobo said, TET definitely merits our support. Only a few more weeks out and I can barely contain myself! :D
     
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  19. Porquiplane

    Porquiplane Look Into My Eyes

    Messages:
    480
    Location:
    Wunderland, Overworld
    So the Cera... Sounds sweet.
     
  20. Sinclue

    Sinclue OK disagree with me, I can't force you to be right

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    902
    Location:
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    OK professor, tell me just how you measure that?

    Your (sic) getting downright mystical my friend.
     
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  21. jambandphan03

    jambandphan03 Vapor Goddess

    Messages:
    5,487

    :hmm:
     
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  22. ThermoVape

    ThermoVape Vaporizer Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Nor Cal

    The Cera for Essential Oil is a Evolution of the Revolution (terrible metaphor), or the re-imagining the Essential oil vaporizer if we started making it with feedback from a couple of thousands customers. We ask for user/patient/customer/reviewer feedback constantly, and we get a lot of it, for which we are grateful. In all honestly the ThermoVape Revolution is a much loved vaporizer and we got an enormous amount of positive feedback, however we knew we had room to improve.

    So the Cera for Essential Oil achieves several things based on the feedback of many customers and ThernoVape Revolution owners, many in this forum! ;)

    - Improved Battery Life
    - Increased carrying capacity, >400% increase over the Revolution
    - Designed to achieve optimum delivery of dense, but cooler, more flavorful vapor
    - Easy to load
    - Extremely resistant to high temperatures
    - Completely free of any type of silica, silicon, plastic, teflon, low temp metal, etc. that could potentially contribute to the vapor path.
    - Deliver a longer, more sustained output of dense vapor without getting whispy, or overheating.
    - Clog Free
    - Easy to Clean
    - Sterilizable


    It is designed to work best with high purity essential oils, concentrates with high plant content are best ground and vaporized with loose leaf via convection IMO.

    If people remotely enjoyed the Revolution, then we are confident they will really be thrilled with the Cera Essential Oil vape.

    Regardless of if purchased in Stainless Steel or Titanium, these are the most purpose driven, highest quality, essentail oil cartridges ever built for commercial production. It makes the revolution look like an antique, and I love the Revolution. Tings change, for the better.

    Hope that answers some questions.

    We put the last remaining Revolution-LV Cartridges up on the site for sale, we had 50 or so that were held for an order that never closed.

    Cheers,

    Noah
     
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  23. ThermoVape

    ThermoVape Vaporizer Manufacturer Manufacturer

    Messages:
    509
    Location:
    Nor Cal

    If I sounded like a jerk on that post, I apologize. Please make the angry pony tail go away, thats pretty much exactly how my 13 year old daughter looks at me constantly... seriously.... it is a scary emoticon....

    I don't sleep much, forgive me. Please...

    I just meant the Cera should not really ever get quite as hot as the T1 could get if you were just using them regularly, the metal on the T1 can get hot and get hot fast. The Ceramic is slow and steady up, won't surprise you.

    Noah
     
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  24. jambandphan03

    jambandphan03 Vapor Goddess

    Messages:
    5,487
    I was just giving you a bit of a hard time, I did not send you the original post ;) I think that was Futurtvowner, but I'll let it slide... :p hehehe
     
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  25. havealight101

    havealight101 Norski

    Messages:
    939
    Don't know that until you loan me that one for a few days..?.. My garden will make it feel right at home. It needs some cold weather testing also(unless you fit in your freezer?).
    Thanks for the honesty.
     
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