Discussion in 'Concentrates' started by Bluto, May 9, 2009.
This is our first post although we have been watching FC for many months now and have had email correspondence with some of you. I just wanted to express my respect for the research you all are conducting. I have conducted some of the same experiments myself over the course of the past four years. As you correctly surmise, it took considerable time and money to actually perfect the process of making Liquid Herb (tm).
These are exciting times for MMJ patients. I have personally made arrangements to process many pounds of 'feedstock' into our product "Liquid Herb(tm)" We will be providing this medicinal herb extract to dispensaries all over the USA!
While we wait for the 'movement' to spread to those other states I am willing to give some insight for the experimenters out there. My main concern is that you all 'play safe' and don't ingest any toxins as the result of your experiments. There are some things I can't discuss due to legal reasons, but I will do my very best to post only accurate information that is backed by scientific experimentation.
With your permission, I would like to raise the following points:
Since the active ingredients of cannabis begin to degrade at temperatures above 30 degrees C,
have any of you considered the advantages of vacuum distillation and vacuum reflux?
Have you considered working in an inert atmosphere to avoid oxidation?
Check ebay for a used BUCHI Rotavapor. You NEED one of these!
Yes BHO will work but there are reasons we no longer use it.
While BHO is a concentrated source of actives, it is impossible for an individual to get chemically pure Butane due to the DOT regulations regarding odorless, flammable gasses. This means that after the gas is 'quintuple refined' or whatever, the manufacturer must, by law, add an odorant before it can be shipped! The usual 'garlic smell' is caused by Mercaptins. You can NEVER REMOVE these impurities. This is the true reason that BHO is not suitable for medical use. Try buying some ETD or CO2 extract at your local club if you are in a medical state. These are much better starting materials than BHO.
Just so you know it's possible: We've made a liquid that actually will give you a 'head rush'! It costs more, so we haven't released it yet.
I can't guarantee that I will be a regular poster on this forum but I want you all to know that we are listening and will do our best to respond to your needs.
Hey Doc!! Welcome to the forum and thanks so much for your post and your research! I hope someday my state will my MMJ friendly! In the meantime....we cannot help curious damnselves
Thanks so much, looks like I've got some reading to do but I'm sure it's over my head! Looks like FC Labs has a piece of eq to add to the wish list
Fellow explorers, thank you for your warm welcome.
Lo, I had dinner with an art gallery owner from (not so sunny) FL two nights ago in Los Angeles. You can contact the Moksha Family Artist Collective in Miami and ask for Ray. Ray knows about the vape-pen.
JamBandPhan, Ethanol is a great solvent for your purposes and it is easily reduced by evaporation. I wish it was easier to get 100% ethanol in CA. We buy ours from a lab supply house because it is impossible to get otherwise. Consider yourself fortunate!
I spoke to VP about your atomizer: Send $10 by paypal to vape-pen when you are ready for a new atomizer. Add $5 for priority mail.
I'm so sorry to hear you have a sensitivity to PG. Could that be caused by other impurities in the e-juice? Did you try the ginseng that came with the VP? We have not had any adverse reactions in the hundreds of individuals who participated in our trial experiments.
On the other hand, we had several complaints regarding VG. Please don't use VG. It is not safe and here is the reason:
The problem with the VG is not apparent until you do careful study of the SINGLE POINT TEMPERATURES that are possible in certain small areas of the atomizer itself. The filament inside the atomizer will easily reach 300C each and every time it is used! Therefore, toxic acrolein is ALWAYS produced when atomizing VG in this way.
Have you tried the pharmaceutical grade PG? The other possibility is PEG-400. Have you tried it?
Your comments on polar vs. non-polar solvents are also very relevant. It would not be as difficult to make these formulas if the liquids were not immiscible. Using D.I. water is a good idea, especially if you want more vapor to be produced. Use too much and you will risk precipitation of the active substances, they will fall out of solution and you will have ruined your batch for the purposes of vaping. If this happens, you can still eat it.
We use all stainless and glass equipment and try to keep the highest lab standards. We also subscribe to the tenets of the Medical Cannabis Safety Commission.
We just bought a GC! Now we have to get it calibrated. That means I have to get back to work.
I'm starting to wish my e-joint vaping needs are more frequent so I too can continue testing. It's fun.
Very interested in the Liquid Herb and really no interest in acquiring any more lab equipment.
It's not widely known about here in Denver, that I can see.
Jam, I'm with ya all the way on that.
My needs are the times I get stuck in something like a store (especially a thrift store with the wife)[or the Sprint business center, OMG], or any where else people are present. Normally I carry a VG for times away from home, but as we all know there is no stealth with that. I want to use an escape rope while standing amongst people. This seems to be the best way.
I have come to know a few patients that can absolutely benefit from THe-cig. Would love to assist them.
I ran across this tid bit of info which leads me to believe that if VG were to become toxic while using it in an ecig, you would know it.
Acrolein, has a pungent, suffocating odor, is toxic by all exposure routes. Exposure causes inflammation and irritation of the skin, respiratory tract, and mucous membranes. Inhaled, acrolein is irritating to the upper respiratory tract even at low concentrations. Its odor threshold of 0.16 ppm is similar to the OSHA permissible exposure limit (0.1 ppm); thus odor may provide an adequate warning of potentially hazardous concentrations. Inhalation may also cause an asthmatic reaction in sensitized individuals. When ingested, acrolein produces chemical burns of the lips, mouth, throat, esophagus, and stomach. Nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea also occur. Apart from rare cases of sensitization, no adverse effects in humans chronically exposed to low concentrations of acrolein have been reported.
jamband...this shit is fascinating and over my head, so if I may ask some basic, or stupid questions....
1 -- Is your dry mouth any more than I would experience as a normal cotton mouth experience?
2 -- Do you find that, in the end, consuming weed this way effects efficiency at all? In other words, do you know yet if you are using more, less, or the same amount of weed consuming it this way?
I can say that I experience a cotton mouth type of feeling, similar to smoking the medication, using PG as well. I have read many others experience a middle of the night thirst. But that's about it with me. I no longer get cotton mouthed since I no longer smoke my meds.
I can say in my intial testing/experience it is definitely not efficient at all. The idea for me was to sacrifice a bit for complete stealth and since I don't have a fully equiped lab to mess around with, we gotta do what we gotta do and that tends to be not efficient.
LOL. Sort of a DOH.
I got a thagbuilt.com battery MOD for all this e-juice testing stuff because it gave me the option of multiple voltages and I had it built with a 510 fitting and got all the adapters to test all different atomzier styles out there. Hell, for no charge he even finishes it in various ways. I had simple Asclepius Rod put on it.
This thing, with THe-juiCe, actually kicks ass and gets people ripped. Tested, verified, and I'm damn happy. I never even tried a higher voltage then 3.7.
Today was the first day I took it for back up purposes (in case I get stuck somewhere amongst people). My original goal was for total stealthness. DOH, this thing, although tested and verifed, IS NOT STEALTH!
Note to self: keep tiny e-cig batteries that actually LOOK like a cigarette fully charged.
So, before we left I told my wife, "we're coming straight home".
Pretty much. It's got two things going for it. Large enough for a 3.7V (standard vaping voltage) 18650 lithium battery which will vape all day for 2 - 3 days before re-charging or it can take TWO CR123 batteries that will bring you up to 6V vaping. Which, in a pinch, are available at any photo aisle. There are higher voltage atomziers available now as well.
When I use the standard e-cig battery I'm not happy with it's initial burst of high current then seemingly it withers fast during the draw. An 18650 will give you constant current during the draw.
The majority of adapters I see convert a "510" to something else, so I ordered mine for a 510 and got all the different adapters to be equiped for different atomizer try outs. So far I'm only dealing with the 801 cartridge as it's huge.
Can't tell for certain, but damn, it seems my batch actually got stronger. I know... Had it out today and just had to jack with it when I got back home this evening.
This post is gold, keep the info coming. Pretty sure I speak for everyone who's stumbled onto this post when I say it's much more appreciated than words can describe. I as well have been experimenting with similar extraction methods, new vaporizer peaked my interest. =] I'll be watching this post closely and if I have anything of importance to contribute I'll make sure and get it up here asap.
Do you work for Got Vape?
Separate names with a comma.