When I read their newsletter, I had a different interpretation of the 1% number. If I had to guess, I'd say they track defect rate by production or assembly run (or some other trackable grouping); not their defect rate from the beginning of time.Lies. Even at 1%, if they sold 100k units that would equal 100 defects. Well, we know based on serial numbers they are nowhere close to that number. Where are they getting these numbers? Are they just completely making them up? And if they are seeing hundreds (or even 100!) of defects based on the amount of units that they have produced, the defect rate is much higher than 1%. I'm fairly positive that they have seen more than 100 returned.
I mean, come on. I'm just one person and I had to return mine 6 times in 6 months. I've also talked to multiple people who had to return theirs multiple times.
From my experience and talking to others it really comes down to how often you use the device. If you use it a dozen times a day it's going to fail in about three weeks. If you use it 3 times a week you are going to have it working for a much longer period of time. Regardless, it should work much more reliably for the heavy user.
Lies. Even at 1%, if they sold 100k units that would equal 100 defects. Well, we know based on serial numbers they are nowhere close to that number. Where are they getting these numbers? Are they just completely making them up? And if they are seeing hundreds (or even 100!) of defects based on the amount of units that they have produced, the defect rate is much higher than 1%. I'm fairly positive that they have seen more than 100 returned.
Nice one.Your math is a bit off, 1% of 100,000 is 1,000. That's beside the point though.
The thing I found interesting about that email is they never actually claimed to have a 1% failure rate. I had to read it three times to make sure, it's very carefully worded.
"It is important to realize that even with a 1% failure rate, we will see hundreds of customers with problems."
To me that sounds like a purely hypothetical statement, using the 1% number to illustrate a point. There are probably over 10,000 Grasshoppers out there so that would make hundreds of customers with problems if they had a 1% failure rate.
That is just my speculation, but that's my point too, they haven't ever made a hard claim to reliability. The closest we got was the Reddit AMA April 15. Matt said that the initial failure rate was 30% and it is more than an order of magnitude lower now. That would place it less than 3% two months ago. I doubt they are down to 1% that fast, but it would be good news if true and if they would confirm it is an accurate number. If the failure rate was that low back then they should have just said 1% in the AMA.
https://www.reddit.com/r/vaporents/comments/65ks2l/ama_hopper_labs_founders_matt_and_trevor/dgb26wk/
The funny thing is failure rates of 1%, 3%, 0.1% all mean nothing without a time period. That is how reliability is measured.
I'm glad Hopper Labs has set a hard goal of 0.1% failure rate, so hopefully if they reach that number we will finally have detailed statistics, with an actual time period included.
It would be nice if Hopper Labs would implement some sort of "lemon" policy where they will outright replace problem units and units that are dead on arrival. It would be great if they did it after the first DOA but they should certainly do it after two or three DOAs in a row like in @JCat's case. It seems like it might help troubleshooting. If that user continues to have problems with new units, it might be use related. If the "lemon" gets repaired and sent to a new owner and it still has issues than it might not be use related.
Think of it more as a High-5slapping my theoretical hands
Very astute observations and reflections of your experience in the field. Thanks, Tiger.Nice one.
Last I hear, HL said (on Reddit) that the failure rate had jumped to just below 10% after their recent calibration blunder. (All the recent combustion issues and the new red then dead).
Before this it was below 5%.
This means the numbers of faulty devices, whatever they define that as, is still alarmingly high. 0.1% is a normal industry goal I'd say, I used to test electrical power meter tolerances to 0.05% to ensure this with the products my company makes. But failure rate is not probability, and even PCBs very, very expensively printed in South Australia arrive at the assembly line with faults amongst the batches - leds not mounted square, dodgy individual components or a missing component, or bridged solder are not common but do occur in decent numbers (even after multiple revisions of the PCB, and I'm talking nearly a decade of R&D by experienced professionals too). If I have to build 146 devices and I have available components to build 150 but 5 devices fail which the techs can't patch fix, we ship 145 and customers (generally corporate) get irate. Micro-controllers failing or communication issues cause vast fluctuations in detected current and the entire device becomes useless, and despite our prestigious calibration and testing procedure, not every device is equal and some end up having wacky faults in the field. The circuitry between the meters I build and the hopper is not entirely dissimilar, so a lot of the hopper problems I see (which I could fix if I had component access and tools to open the device easily enough) are really nothing to be too shocked by given the nature of HL's project. It will take them some time before they iron this all out in any meaningful way, but the recent update discusses some important aspects. Mainly that there are still important revisions identified but not yet implemented, so don't expect an overnight drop to 0.1% as it may never happen, but it's a normal goal they need to concern themselves with, so it's good they've made the progress they have towards it.
Think of it more as a High-5
Even at 1%, if they sold 100k units that would equal 100 defects.
The funny thing is failure rates of 1%, 3%, 0.1% all mean nothing without a time period. That is how reliability is measured.
hand burned by a friends sister
Your math is a bit off, 1% of 100,000 is 1,000. That's beside the point though.
The thing I found interesting about that email is they never actually claimed to have a 1% failure rate. I had to read it three times to make sure, it's very carefully worded.
"It is important to realize that even with a 1% failure rate, we will see hundreds of customers with problems."
To me that sounds like a purely hypothetical statement, using the 1% number to illustrate a point. There are probably over 10,000 Grasshoppers out there so that would make hundreds of customers with problems if they had a 1% failure rate.
That is just my speculation, but that's my point too, they haven't ever made a hard claim to reliability. The closest we got was the Reddit AMA April 15. Matt said that the initial failure rate was 30% and it is more than an order of magnitude lower now. That would place it less than 3% two months ago. I doubt they are down to 1% that fast, but it would be good news if true and if they would confirm it is an accurate number. If the failure rate was that low back then they should have just said 1% in the AMA.
https://www.reddit.com/r/vaporents/comments/65ks2l/ama_hopper_labs_founders_matt_and_trevor/dgb26wk/
The funny thing is failure rates of 1%, 3%, 0.1% all mean nothing without a time period. That is how reliability is measured.
I'm glad Hopper Labs has set a hard goal of 0.1% failure rate, so hopefully if they reach that number we will finally have detailed statistics, with an actual time period included.
It would be nice if Hopper Labs would implement some sort of "lemon" policy where they will outright replace problem units and units that are dead on arrival. It would be great if they did it after the first DOA but they should certainly do it after two or three DOAs in a row like in @JCat's case. It seems like it might help troubleshooting. If that user continues to have problems with new units, it might be use related. If the "lemon" gets repaired and sent to a new owner and it still has issues than it might not be use related.
I did that. I had an og hopper that worked well but was suspect mechanically, and finally popped apart. I sent it in and they put on a new back end that was better, but it never vaped right--it would just barely change the color of the material and was hot to touch. I waited another year or so until they seemed more caught up, and when they announced the colored ti pfe's I sent it in again. The unit I got back worked great a few times and then broke again; different issue this time. It happened more than 72 hours but less than a week after I had gotten it back, and to their credit they did offer & send me a pre-paid postage label.For a long time I've suggested the "time capsule" approach to this dilemma. Put the silly thing away for a year or two, don't think or worry about it, and send it in if and when you really think they've got a solid product.
I'd just really like to know in what time frame .... ever? In the first 24 hours after shipment? (ie. only for those that live in the same city) ... In the first 24 hours after ownership? .... my track record if you count for my SS having been shipped to me 4 times by HL not working properly and my Ti working for <1 week first time and working flawlessly for a 1 month period after 1st RMA ... than it's a 60% failure rate from the first second of ownership to the first week ... an 80% failure rate from week 1 to week 4, and a 100% failure rate within the first 5 weeks ...
I'm only a 1 person sample with 2 devices and 5 back-ends though so take it for what it's worth
Oh yeah ... @Icon13 ... you did it again ... think you meant 2,000 units
That's a drag. Pretty disappointing!It appears I bragged on my repaired gh too soon. Today when I turned it on it went straight to blue lights and its not heating on any temp with any of my batteries. So much for hitting that 1% failure rate. Ive returned mine 3 times in 2 months. 7 or 8 times total in a year and a half. Very frustrated and starting to look for a more reliable vape so I can toss this thing in a drawer and get back to happy vaping adventures. This sucks honestly!
Edit... After banging it on everything with in 5 ft of me to no avail... I say what the hell its already broke so I try blowing in it.... Back to working for now... Who knows how long..
Reliability, Maintainability, and Availability are all well developed sub-disciplines for the design and QA engineer.I'd just really like to know in what time frame .... ever? In the first 24 hours after shipment? (ie. only for those that live in the same city) ... In the first 24 hours after ownership? .... my track record if you count for my SS having been shipped to me 4 times by HL not working properly and my Ti working for <1 week first time and working flawlessly for a 1 month period after 1st RMA ... than it's a 60% failure rate from the first second of ownership to the first week ... an 80% failure rate from week 1 to week 4, and a 100% failure rate within the first 5 weeks ...
I'm only a 1 person sample with 2 devices and 5 back-ends though so take it for what it's worth
Oh yeah ... @Icon13 ... you did it again ... think you meant 2,000 units
Well I got another day out of it but now its going straight to blue lights with no heat again. Maybe it is small particles and I shouldn't be grinding quite so fine.That's a drag. Pretty disappointing!
Your edit strikes a chord here. I think there is something to it, along the lines of debris/crap/whatever affecting the temp sensor. Before my break (almost a month now, ugh), I made a habit of removing mouthpiece while unit still warm, rapping on wood to empty and, after each couple of bowls then taking a firm, quick draw. I was also trying not to fill it to the brim nor tamp the load. Mine had previously both felt restricted (draw restricted) prior to their rma troubles. I did enjoy two great smooth running Hoppers for 3-4 months before the break. They're on vacation now, though not by my choice. Long, shitty story with which I could fill pages on the Fuck You! thread...
Well I got another day out of it but now its going straight to blue lights with no heat again. Maybe it is small particles and I shouldn't be grinding quite so fine.
Maybe it is small particles
I had heard not to blow in the chamber I just did because it was broke anyway... Is it ok to blow into the chamber regularly?It probably is. Usually you can just blow the chamber out and it'll be fine.