Crafty/Crafty+ by Storz & Bickel

[dagfp]

I don't know how far along your vaping journey you are, but there was a few things i did at the start, and some things i thought would never be for me.

I know what you mean. It can be tough not to be stubborn about doing things the way you like them. I try to approach it like Bruce Lee... "Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own"

Vaping is very zen for me. I try to minimize movements as much as possible and recreate the same hit every time. All in the pursuit of that perfect hit. If something distracts me or I don't fully immerse myself in the moment, it doesn't quite hit the same way. There is a certain power to ritual.

It seems the question of how black to go with the ABV will never be answered. I agree that it's not as simple as set the temperature as far as you can go before combustion, since gradually increasing temperatures over the course of a session works much better with just about any vaporizer than cranking up max temperatures at the start.

Adding to the confusion is cannabiniods like THCV which vaporize at 428 degrees and has properties of being Anti THC? What does that even mean? It's making me less high? THCV also has appetite suppression properties but I'm usually pretty hungry afterwards...

Moreso than just the raw cannabinoid count, there are other factors at play like the airflow and how much is able to be delivered over a set period of time and that's the main appeal of the Crafty+ for me. The bowl size is larger than what I have now and seeing videos of people just puffing away effortlessly on their Mightys and Craftys makes the airflow look impressive.

The 40 piece dosing capsule set also feels like a solution to a problem I didn't know I had. Being able to streamline the process of loading a week's worth of herb is a huge quality of life improvement.

But I don't keep my ABV... If it came down to a situation where I needed to bust out a jar of ABV to eat, maybe it's time for a tolerance break...

 

[LabPong]

On the other hand, we have some vaporizers that can extract 98% of the cannabinoids, producing more carcinogens but also nearly fully extracting what is contained in the plant

Exactly which vape with what material produces carcinogens?

 

[Siebter]

Exactly which vape with what material produces carcinogens?

I was wondering myself where those vague assumptions come from and did some research; the only carcinogen I found¹ within vaporization temps was benzene which is released at 205°C / 401°F. However, I found no studies on how critical this actually is.

¹ https://www.zamnesia.com/img/cms/Bl...n/Vaporizer-Temperatures-for-Cannabis (1).jpg

 

[invertedisdead]

Exactly which vape with what material produces carcinogens?

Probably many of them if they were to actually be quantified to medical device standards for inhalation.

Adding to the confusion is cannabiniods like THCV which vaporize at 428 degrees

Even more confusing are compounds like quercetin which actually vaporize above the combustion point of the plant material.

I now strongly believe this is one of the major factors in why combustion still works better for certain conditions.

 

[Siebter]

428°F / 220°C won't combust, though.

 

[invertedisdead]

428°F / 220°C won't combust, though.

Quercetin vaporizes at 250c.

Also, a number of compounds in the plant will combust before that temperature.

This is a common myth that the entire plant biomass must incinerate to ash to reach combustion - (think more towards how charcoal is produced) each compound has its own vaporization-degradation pathway.

This is why people don't like to vape flower and oil in the same rig. It's definitely not as pronounced, but it's in the same ballpark as running a flower vaporizer through a bong that has been smoked in.

 

[Siebter]

Quercetin vaporizes at 250c.

I was referring to THCV.

 

[dagfp]

Exactly which vape with what material produces carcinogens?

any vaporizer capable of combustion produces carcinogens. the hotter it goes, the more carcinogens, as well as tar and carbon monoxide. the specific carcinogens found in large quantities in combusted matter are benzene, toluene and naphthalene. toluene and naphthalene will clear out of your system in a day, benzene has a half life of 10 days but most benzene inhaled through the lungs is cleared out of the system in 48 hours, so not as bad as ingestion.

research shows at lower temperatures, it is possible to have nearly pure cannabinoids but that the material still contains cannabinoids that could be further extracted with higher temperatures at the expense of producing more of the pyrolytic byproducts.

benzene, the carcinogen that is probably most well researched, was found to be a byproduct of terpenes. when any and all terpenes vaporize, you get leftover benzene. this makes dabs more harmful than dry herbs as not only are they much higher temperatures than herb vaporizers, they sometimes add artificial terpenes back in. methacrolein is another toxicant formed in dabs but i can't find any proof of it being found in the temperatures of dry herb vaping and not much research is available.

the actual paper citing the amounts of benzene in dabs looks to have been scrubbed from the internet and replaced with a less informative one, but at about 550 degrees i recall the amount of benzene seemed negligible. if my math checked out, it was still below the background levels of benzene in air that can be found in some places. people who have consistently high levels of exposure to benzene due to their work (gas station attendants/fuel refillers) show a slightly higher risk of cancer but not so much that people are unwilling to do the job. and cigarette smokers get way more benzene than dabbers... so there are plenty of canaries in the coal mine for dry herb vapers.

i would think that ensuring the flower has been grown without pesticides and is bug and contaminant free probably has a bigger effect on health than worrying about the difference of carcinogens between 400 degree and 440 degree vaping.




the main risk that i am concerned about is regular exposure to hot air. some research shows people who drink hot beverages daily have an elevated risk for esophageal cancer, and while dry heat feels different than a liquid, it is definitely hot enough to cause concern.

so uhh.... what were we talking about again? yes, the CRAFTY+... the cooling unit seems to do a good job of conditioning the vapor. so yeah, that's why i'm buying one. health reasons.

Even more confusing are compounds like quercetin which actually vaporize above the combustion point of the plant material.

I now strongly believe this is one of the major factors in why combustion still works better for certain conditions.

I think most people agree that the entourage effect is important. If there was something in the plant that wasn't necessary, nature wouldn't have put it there. i take the good with the bad... and some hormesis can be a good thing.


when it comes to digesting proteins, the act of heating makes it more bioavailable by changing the molecular structure. a cooked egg is more nutritious than a raw egg... but as it is we are probably at least a few generations away from fully understanding what heating does to cannabinoid profiles.

in the awesome book Cannabis and Spirituality by Stephen Gray some people compare vaporizing to MP3 and combustion to analog. vaporizing clips the data that you may not perceive but something *is* missing, while combustion gives you the entire dynamic range, so to speak.


i prefer vaporizing for many reasons but if by chance there is some combustion, you better believe i'm sucking that sweet smoke down like i owe it rent money.

......has anyone ever combusted in their Mighty or Craftys?

 

[GoldenBud]

the more carcinogens, as well as tar and carbon monoxide.

Hmm.. There aren't any CO molecules, because there isn't a chemical reaction under ~240C, it is just a physical change. Same about CO2, at 210C-220C I don't see how it can be produced, physical change only (solid to gas)

 

[dagfp]

Hmm.. There aren't any CO molecules, because there isn't a chemical reaction under ~240C, it is just a physical change. Same about CO2, at 210C-220C I don't see how it can be produced, physical change only (solid to gas)

that's good to know. most of what i referred to comes from the research on dabbing. there is probably less data on vaporizing herbs since there is nothing of danger to warrant studying.

to bring it back to the Crafty+... why do you think S&B make their products only go to 410? health reasons? or because their heater can't get up to that level of heat without affecting battery life? It's a lot easier to market a unit that is good for 7 bowls at 410 degrees than 5 bowls at 440...

 

[Siebter]

most of what i referred to comes from the research on dabbing.

I have never dabbed, but I think it needs a little more heat than dry herb vaporizing – hence I don't consider dabbing to be „vaping“. Here's an article that refers to dry herb vaping only → https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456813/

For me vaping is primarily harm reduction, not guaranteed absence of any potential harm. However, I do agree with @GoldenBud that combustion is a very definite kind of chemical reaction happening at very specific circumstances.

Edit: I don't think anyone can answer your question about the max temp of S+B devices, but I'm sure they would reply if you ask them directly.

 

[GoldenBud]

that's good to know. most of what i referred to comes from the research on dabbing. there is probably less data on vaporizing herbs since there is nothing of danger to warrant studying.

to bring it back to the Crafty+... why do you think S&B make their products only go to 410? health reasons? or because their heater can't get up to that level of heat without affecting battery life? It's a lot easier to market a unit that is good for 7 bowls at 410 degrees than 5 bowls at 440...

battery life/less heat around battery/there's no taste after 210C anyway

 

[Siebter]

I also think battery life might be a major reason, both short term (time until having to recharge) and long term (the more the battery is stressed, the sooner it will loose its max capacity).

 

[invertedisdead]

when any and all terpenes vaporize, you get leftover benzene. this makes dabs more harmful than dry herbs as not only are they much higher temperatures than herb vaporizers,

Benzene formation occurs at over 600 degrees. That's not quite accurate that "any and all" vaporized terpenes form benzene as a byproduct.

It's certainly possible to dab well below those temperatures, many of us here do

in the awesome book Cannabis and Spirituality by Stephen Gray some people compare vaporizing to MP3 and combustion to analog. vaporizing clips the data that you may not perceive but something *is* missing, while combustion gives you the entire dynamic range, so to speak.

That sounds like a pretty strange analogy, don't you think combustion would taste better than vaporization if it truly gave you the "entire dynamic range?" The fact is combustion temperatures destroy many compounds, and vaporization leaves compounds behind, and extractions leave compounds behind (ABV brownies?) Nothing is 100% efficient. Quality hash has an affinity for vaporization though, even when combusted - IMO this is why most historical cannabis regions consumed hash. You might get a good mixed spectrum from smoking hash since it will kinda vaporize and combust.

I have never dabbed, but I think it needs a little more heat than dry herb vaporizing – hence I don't consider dabbing to be „vaping“. Here's an article that refers to dry herb vaping only →

dabbing is simply a more pure form of vaporization, free of degrading plant biomass.

 

[Stu]

Please take any talk about carcinogens to it's own thread as it's not an appropriate discussion to have in the Crafty+ thread. I don't want to have to copy/pasta a bunch of posts myself into a new thread, so your cooperation is appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[blackstone]

why do you think S&B make their products only go to 410?

Because "Validation studies have shown that at this temperature, THCA (TetraHydroCannabinolic Acid, Cannabidiolic Acid (CBDA), and the terpenes are almost completely dissipated without combustion taking place."
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/medical-cannabis-vaporizers/66643/

And because as a maximum, it's "idiot-proof" and prevents accidental overdosing, and it has been recommended to use it to prevent abuse by other parties.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjADegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1wOwKCJb5AIhInemzOJbMO

I got a laugh about the overdosing part and had meant to share on here when I found it before!

 

[NO_F_U]

Keep it on topic blackstone.

 

[MGG]

I've got both the Mighty and the Crafty + side by side.
Here's my honest opinions comparing the two.

DISCLAIMER : I recognise some may disagree with my views, but they are here and they are unbiased.
I'm also going to try and avoid stating a lot of what people have already spoken about such as disappointments with this not being a larger upgrade and lacking more features (such as a removable battery, no usb c, blah blah blah)

Firstly, if you already own a Mighty, I don't think upgrading is worth it.
The Mighty performs just as good and out performs in some areas.
Though if you're looking for a new vape, the Crafty is JUST AS GOOD as the Mighty
in many aspects and is definitely worth it if you value portability.

POSITIVES:
First major pluses for the Crafty+ :

+ Form factor this is one of the best on the market to combine portability with quality vapour.
This thing is light weight, feels great in the hand, significantly lighter than the Mighty.

+ Vapour as good quality if not marginally better thanks to a number of adjustments to the heaters design and optimisations to the internal firmware/software.

+ Heat up time JUST as fast if not slightly edging out the Mighty.

+ Battery about as good as the Mighty from my experience. Perhaps marginally better?
It's hard to say, i'd need to properly test further and I don't want to speak out of place on this.
But I guess i'm saying that even the fact it's comparable to the Mighty is really impressive.

+ Slightly better/stronger flavour than the Mighty purely from the smaller mouth piece.

+ Crafty has a stand...
It still baffles me Mighty can't properly stand up without paying for a 3rd party stand.

+ Generally firmware is more optimised than the Mighty.

+ Appears to function consistent even on 1 bar of battery compared to the original Crafty which seemed to really get whispy on the final bars.

+ Great fit in the pocket, actually a portable device, where as Mighty is 'portable' but you couldn't really comfortably lug it around in your pocket like you can with the Crafty.

+ The addition of an extra boost mode (Making 3 in total) is much more ideal than the 2 heat modes the original Crafty had.


NEGATIVES:
For me these are the Crafty + faults compared to the Mighty:

- No pass through charging, Mighty has pass through charging, its really annoying when you can't use the vape and have to wait for it to charge. That's never been an issue for me with the Mighty.

- Crafty cooling unit by design is smaller and has tinier grooves at a shorter distance, this means the vapor is harsher than the Mighty. The Mighty cooling unit actually fits perfect onto the Crafty. I tested both back to back and there's a definite difference. The Mighty cooling unit is smoother. I suppose if you really wanted you could use the Crafty with the Mighty cooling unit if you wanted smoother vapor.

- I straight up don't like using this mobile interface, not only does it present a legitimate security risk for people in non legalised countries due to the fact it requests bluetooth and location data. I also find the actual interface not to be ideal. I do appreciate that there's a lot of features and more ability to tweak your crafty with the Mighty, I actually wish they went further with it. But my primary issue is that the app crashes, it disconnects, and I dislike this routine of clicking on the app > Selecting whether I want to use the Crafty or the Hybrid> Selecting my serial number > Then maybe I can see the temp or it lags or doesn't connect well.
I think this must not be the issue for the wider audience, and perhaps my phone is too old to use this newer app. It did definitely work better on my friends newer phone. Some people will have fun with the app, its a neat gimmick, a party trick, but the screen on the Mighty to me is just way more straight forward and avoids so much trouble of "Hey man can you take out your phone so I can see what temp I am".
I also keep getting the error message 'could not read project status register (2); the initiation of read sequence request failed' No idea what that means! Might just be a result of the product still being new and the app just needing an update, but still not acceptable to be having problems like this on launch. Rather than making the logo bright orange I would rather they'd put a very tiny basic screen there to just tell me the temp.

- Lighting (IN MY OPINION) could be illustrated better from my perspective if it went
RED: normal temp
GREEN: boost
BLUE: max boost

- I'm not totally a fan of having to take out the pick every time I want to charge the device, I suppose it does sort of protect the charging port. But eh, it's something I didn't have to do on the Mighty. The Crafty seems to have a lot of those things, extra unnecessary little tasks, it's very... 'crafty' like that.

- Mighty's mouth piece is more fool proof because you can turn it on either way, Crafty requires it to be round a certain way, this is another thing you will have to get used to coming from a Mighty

- The other issue that will come about from the Crafty's smaller cooling chamber is it will get gunked twice as fast and have to be cleaned more regularly.

MEH:
Here's differences I noticed that are neither really negative or positive to me:

* Crafty's pick is transparent, Mighty's pick is solid.
* Vibration is weaker on the Crafty.
* Crafty + logo now bright orange, personally to me i'd rather pure black, but eh.
* Logo design at top of cooling unit has been updated.

FINAL CONCLUSIONS :
At the end of the day it's still early days with this vape, and it's hard to make a final conclusion. I feel as if i'll wake up tomorrow and feel as if I overlooked some details I could of touched on. These two devices are VERY similar. I'd say the Crafty is just as good as the Mighty but it has a few small nuances that add a little extra work to the process.
If portability is important to you and you don't own a Mighty already, I'd say get one.

If you already own the Mighty, I'd say wait to see if a Mighty+ or Plenty+ arrives.
Or potentially Ghost Stealth MV2. Vapexhale have also been talking about doing a portable for a while. Hopefully 2020 will see some more bigger leaps in progress in the vape scene.
Storz N Bickel seem only interested in doing baby steps.

 

[LabPong]

Keep it on topic blackstone.

seriously....your first post and it is this? He actually was keeping the topic about the use of the S&B in regards to their heat settings.


Crafty+ seems like some will like the minor refinements, but most are not moved to get one if they have a mighty or crafty already? I have a friend looking at the Crafty+, but I am not sure how to advise them on it yet.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Here is one cool teardown by the VC.https://forum.vapelife.com/discussion/6097/crafty-review-i-cant-believe-this/p1
I have tried only the mighty and it is not the best tasting vape for me ,but tastes better than most portables i've tried but i felt something off in the taste which was not a big surprise, but now after seeing this it only further confirms my impression... I knew there was plastic in the airpath but i didnt know about the wires ..

I am curious about one thing, after vaping at max temp ,is there something left in the herb ,have you confirmed that with trying it in another vaporizer ? I cant imagine that there would be anything satisfying left after a long session at 210C.

 

[biohacker]

He actually was keeping the topic about the use of the S&B in regards to their heat settings.

You certainly weren't!

Exactly which vape with what material produces carcinogens?

i didnt know about the wires

No different than the Arizer Solo's.

@MGG Awesome feedback/comparison!

 

[MGG]

Also to briefly add to what I said in my comparison.
Another difference I didnt touch on is that the Crafty+ no longer comes with grinder, brush, charger power adapter and some other things the Mighty and original Crafty had. This has been done to save on shipping costs. Though its a bit dissapointing.

 

[biohacker]

some other things the Mighty and original Crafty had

Filling tool. At least Arizer doesn't skimp. Even includes potpourri! And their products are more reliable, and warranty way better to deal with IMO.

 

[invertedisdead]

Filling tool. At least Arizer doesn't skimp. Even includes potpourri! And their products are more reliable, and warranty way better to deal with IMO.

The aromatherapy dish cracked in half the very first time I tried it in my Air

 

[blackstone]

I knew there was plastic in the airpath but i didnt know about the wires ..

No different than the Arizer Solo's

When it's assembled the air doesn't come into contact with the wires, thats probably why you didn't know about them.
And also why it was such a facepalm to see more than one company still doing it on new vaporizers in 2017.