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WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

Discussion in 'ABV' started by CarolKing, Jul 11, 2015.

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  1. Krazy

    Krazy Well-Known Member

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    *Three of the below quotes are Mz. King; picked because they are well written and an example of views held by a number of people. I actually agree more than disagree with her in general on this topic.


    Actually our country IS filled with crazy, stoopid people. :( Remember 1/2 of everyone you meet is below average in intelligence. The entire world is full of crazy, stupid, fraked up people.

    As decided by whom? As in any and all persons that seek help from a councilor or therapist?

    We will just have to agree to disagree on that one, lol. I'm Xmilitary and have never looked forward to putting a bullet into anyone. As a civilian Iv taken risks to talk my way out of things rather than simply (legally) kill someone before. I'm now older, disabled, and caring for my parents. My 12 gauge is for home protection and your disapproval of such maters not a whit. :rolleyes: (to me). I have used it in a non firing way agains an armed home intruder in the past. Having written all of that I can't disagree about a certain group with the mind set you write of.


    So you are not OK with that but anyone with "mental health" issues should be banned from firearm ownership? How about people that suffer from mental symptoms as a direct result of of physical ailment like depression due to menopause or thyroid disorders? Not intended as snarkyness by the way.

    Very true. And unless and until we are willing, as a society, to address a bunch of basic and underlying issues? Our violence issues are not going away. Institutionalized child mistreatment, Implicit racial and religious bias, etc..
     
  2. macbill

    macbill Gregarious Misanthrope

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    Can you stop a Clever Crazy? If someone is hellbent on mass murder, there are many ways to go.
     
  3. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

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  4. Krazy

    Krazy Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    up on a mountain
    That is why the Secret Service is so freaky OCD and dialed in. the old truism about an assassination: A smart, dedicated, patient person that is willing to ignore the "...and then escape." part of the plan is incredibly hard to stop.

    There are a couple of very effective methods that have not yet been explored by modern crazy-clevers and I won't mention them here. But simply from a vehicular homicide POV; what if this guy had used a tractor trailer with a full trailer rather than guns?


    It also doesn't help at all when people use emotionally charged, incorrect terminology. It helps even less when they pass laws altering or incorrectly defining a term. From a military perspective an Assault Rifle is one capable of both single shot and fully automatic fire. Under current gun laws it is a cosmetic term. It helps even less, IMO, when people double down on the term, more interested in "being right" than effecting change. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-a-scaletta/ar15s-are-basically-assau_b_10469112.html

    More crazy with semantics: How is an AR-15 equipped with a bump stock NOT an automatic weapon? It is a weapon with autofire capabilities but NOT an automatic weapon as defined by law. :mental:
     
  5. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    Location:
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    Also known as confirmation bias :tup:

    Some interesting stats in there...
    • New York has 8.3 million residents. It is likely to have 335 murders this year.
    • In 2011, Austria, with 8.4 million residents, had 71 murders.
    • Switzerland has 7.9 million residents and 46 murders.
    • The Netherlands, with 16.7 million people - more than twice the population of New York City - had less than half the number of murders (144) in a year.
    • Or, put differently, if New York had the same murder rate (0.8) as Germany, Austria, and Spain, there would have been only 67 murders this year - slightly more than one each week.
    • Toronto -- a city of 2.8 million residents -- had 55 murders in 2012, a rate of 1.9 per 100,000 people. That year Chicago, a city with a similar population size, had 506 murders. Detroit, a city of 701,475 people just across the river from Toronto, recorded 411 homicides last year. Chicago's murder rate was almost 10 times larger than Toronto; Detroit's was about 28 times greater. Detroiters and Chicagoans are so used to the epidemic of killings that they often go unreported in the local media. In Toronto, almost every murder is a front-page story and a topic of public soul-searching.

    :hmm::bang:
    :myday:
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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  6. TboneToker

    TboneToker Medical Enthusiast

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    There is nothing wrong with it, if people couldn't use guns they would use other things.
     
  7. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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  8. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead trance-form

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    Another brick in the wall! :bang:
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
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  9. GetLeft

    GetLeft Well-Known Member

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  10. dapperdopamine

    dapperdopamine Active Member

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    What exactly makes prohibition a viable options with guns, it clearly isnt with cannabis or any other drug. I dont thinking owning a firearm or wanting to own a firearm should be a crime, Im reticent to give the state, which has been witholding what lots of you use as incredibly effective medecine just because it doesnt agree with their ideology, So knowing this, why would you willingly give them more power. The US is also awash with firearms, not just because theyre legal, but because we have a huge gun culture, its stupid to think they would just dissapear. Also something a lot of people don't actually seem to grasp is the second amendment doesnt exist to protect yourself from individuals, it exists to protect from a tyrannical government.
    Feel free to disagree or tell me otherwise, im quite open minded and would love to get some alternative viewpoints.
     
  11. vapirtoo

    vapirtoo Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    NYC
    America is or was founded on the gun. Firearms are deeply engrained in our cultural norms as is racism and sexual abuse.
    Our culture is glacially moving to a more loving space which might take many decades. In the meantime these open debates help to speed up the process.
     
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  12. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    Interesting grouping. Some would group it with Freedom of Worship, the Press or Public Speech? Or 'Due Process' protections? Constitutional Rights?

    I get the view "America is or was founded on the gun", and to an extent support it, I just don't agree fully. IMO it was founded by a group that were willing to defend their beliefs against a foreign force with the best tools available to them. Seriously. With their 'lives and fortunes' for what they saw is the collective good. Many call them Patriots. Guns were just the tools, guns had been there before (and after), the foundation was ideas. The basis of the Republic is found on 'paper', not iron.

    I agree, discussion can often help. So does experience? For the fun of discussion, let me ask a question?

    Does Chicago have such restrictive gun laws because it's such a dangerous place or the other way about?

    I'll take the con side, such laws have restricted at least some honest citizens from protecting their families this way but haven't discouraged the guys in black hats that were planning on breaking laws anyway. If anything encouraged them? Anyway, I think an argument could be made that yet more restrictive laws would make it worse, not better, for the citizens?

    There's a fun German saying, "Foxes prefer rabbits with no claws", I'm told.

    FWIW, I'm not sure the two are directly related, but I think most of us assume they are? I'm wondering which 'polarity' is going on, for sure opinions before the question factor highly as well.

    Scale is perhaps also worth considering. We're what, 3 times more likely to be killed by Opiates than guns (if we subtract suicides)? Or more likely to be killed by a 'distracted driver', over half of which are using their cell phones at the fatal moment, than murdered by gun.

    Anyway, I was curious how folks see cause/effect WRT gun laws in Chicago and crime? TIA

    Regards to all.

    OF
     
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  13. cybrguy

    cybrguy Patience Rewards

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    In your dreams, maybe. Personally I think it is circling the drain. We WERE moving in that direction, but not anymore.

    This is probably not a good thread for me. I had 1100 posts in the politics thread before it spontaneously combusted. I think I'll go back to hanging in vape threads...
     
  14. vapirtoo

    vapirtoo Well-Known Member

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    Gun prohibition like drug prohibition is not the answer. Yes guns are tools for sure, but all tools come with responsibility.
    More people may die on the roads, but we will not ban cars or toughen our licensing process
     
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  15. cybrguy

    cybrguy Patience Rewards

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    The purpose of a car is not to kill people. If you kill someone with your car you are using it incorrectly and not as intended. That is why it's called an accident.

    If you kill someone with a gun you are doing what it is designed to do. The manufacturer goes out of his way to increase the lethality of a gun. There is NO OTHER PURPOSE for a gun other than to kill something, whether human or not. Target practice is called practice for a reason.

    Comparing car deaths and gun deaths is meaningless. The only thing they have in common is someone is dead. And we do everything we can to make cars LESS lethal and to reduce the likelihood that someone will be injured in or by one. We have LAWS that REQUIRE manufacturers to make cars as safe as possible.

    Efforts to make guns safer are blocked regularly and effectively by gun manufacturers, lobbies and the NRA. Smart guns can get NO traction and are actively prevented from being manufactured. A store owner who thought they might be a good idea and offered to carry them was practically put out of business and forced to recant. States have made laws AGAINST BUY BACKS AND EFFORTS TO DESTROY GUNS COLLECTED.

    See, not a good place for me. I really am gone now.
     
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  16. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    There are plenty of other purposes for a firearm. In most cases, only the criminal's purpose is to kill someone/thing. (Small exception for sharpshooters in the line of duty.)

    A better description of purpose for a firearm might be to STOP someone.
     
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  17. dapperdopamine

    dapperdopamine Active Member

    Messages:
    41
    I mean competetive shooting and marksmanship still exists, bows and arrows are also meant to kill, should we just ban anyone from having ranged weapons, I just cant see why you would want the same people that only a couple decades ago were kicking down your doors for a plant, to be the only ones with firearms. Is it not true that those who seek power are unfit to rule? Why would I give someone else more leverage over my life, I cant see the logic in it. Violent crime happens in lots of places with or without guns, guns are just another tool humans have used to kill. man can fashion a weapon out of anything, its why we prospered initially because of tools. tools can be used for good and for bad.
     
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  18. ghostofcyberx13

    ghostofcyberx13 And That Ain't No Joke, You Can Disappear In Smoke

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    Location:
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    Well for staters use the gun laws that already exist. Next get rid of "Santuary Cities" where gangs like MS13 can and do thrive. That is all. Sayonara.
     
  19. crawdad

    crawdad floatin

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    Click to play YouTube Video


    back when america was "great" people laughed at this, now it seems people are considering it. thanks archie?

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts
     
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  20. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    Giving some teachers guns in a crowded school during a shooting with a machine gun is ludicrous. I can’t believe the dumb shit stuff I’m hearing. No teacher that I’ve ever talked to wanted to carry a firearm during their jobs. Plus being good enough not to get shot or shoot another innocent person.

    Maybe paid security guards would be a better idea. Make schools more secure with cameras inside and out. Have doors with a card lock, like in hotels. Most schools don’t have enough security built within their schools. What about doors without a window in the hallway? Start with some actual ideas for the security of our school children that might be plausible.

    The feds need to give the schools money for security guards or police officers. Don’t rely on teachers with guns. That is so rediculious, it just proves how out of step some of our leaders are. Curious if Trump has ever been to a plublic school? Has he ever seen how small the classrooms and hallways are?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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  21. seaofgreens

    seaofgreens My Mind Is Free

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    766
    Oh man, I got it!

    If just all the kids have "school," guns as well. They grab them when they go to their lockers, and must be returned at the end of the day etc. Then there is no excuse! If you are shot while at school, you should have defended yourself with your school gun...

    But believe me! They won't just be normal kids. They will have training... the best of training! And military grade target practice... ooh boy. Nobody will shoot our kids then! NOBODY!

    Problem solved. Trump style.
     
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  22. crawdad

    crawdad floatin

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    Location:
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    getting rid of background check loopholes (gun shows) and making large magazine and quick fire large caliber firearms illegal for non military persons (nationwide) has to happen, not discussed, its been discussed...ultimately this should also be handled with appropriate healthcare measures such as : uniFUCKINGversal healthcare so ppl can get help quickly and should be included as part of the measures schools follow when dealing with disturbed students. mental health is the issue you say mr president? agreed, pass something to address it.
     
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  23. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    The gun shows need to have more oversight to make sure the rules for registering the firearms are being done. I think a lot of rules are overlooked and not followed. The NRA has had so much pull in this country even with the Democrats. These high school kids are so great maybe they can make a difference where others haven’t been able to.

    Who needs a machine gun to protect themselves? Crazy gun laws in America.

    Interesting how the president wants to give bonuses to teachers that carry guns when their schools don’t have enough books or materials for all the students to use. Sometimes all this stupid talk from people in power makes my head hurt. Really so out of touch with the average American.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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  24. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    1,410
    1. No one wants to force a teacher to carry a firearm. But,
    [​IMG]

    Maybe we should give more points in the hiring process for veterans.

    2. There was a paid, armed, uniformed DEPUTY SHERIFF on the grounds of the recent shooting. While all the facts are not out, it seems that one point of defense reacted poorly to the situation and ran away from and not toward the danger. He has resigned and is under guard at his house as many are upset at his choice.

    3. When we talk of this in general, there are many areas of the firearm problem to deal with. The most deaths are from suicide. Then, there is the criminal violence that does not rise to mass death level. The vast majority of deaths there has to do with inner city violence. In other words, there are racial components to the violence. Whites are five times more likely to commit suicide with a firearm than they are to be the victim of a gun crime. Blacks are the reverse. Then, we can talk of mass killings--where the U.S. is not the leader. (I believe the leader is Norway, although that is probably more because of low population and a horrific incident than any set of causative factors.) Then, we have to deal with accidents.

    4. When we talk of this particular incident, we find the government failed on multiple levels in dealing with this situation and people got killed. Because government does not have to protect us, even if they say they promise they will, none who suffered from the failures will be compensated by those who failed. (It's good to be king. aka qualified immunity) They may get some from the killer, but I bet the lawyers will get most of his inheritance for his defense. No law can change our situation if all the levels of government who are supposed to enforce that law don't. Here, they didn't. I will leave it for those who lean right or left to read the purported explanations for how that could be without mere incompetence.
     
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  25. Newcastle

    Newcastle Stoned!

    Messages:
    573
    Location:
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    Well first off @CarolKing the only person at a gun show that can sell without background checks are tables that dont hold a FFL. There are not many any more because after you pay for a booth there is no money to be made. Most every gun booth is a gun store. They have to abide by all FFL laws. Plane and simple. The reason we dont want background checks on all weapons is so I dont have to pay just to pass a gun to my son or sell to a friend. There has never been a mass shooting stopped because of a registry. Its a false sense of security to have a list of gun owners. Machine gun? REALLY? Ar15s are not machine guns.
     
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