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WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

Discussion in 'ABV' started by CarolKing, Jul 11, 2015.

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  1. GreenDragon

    GreenDragon Well-Known Member

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    Here we go again...But with a twist this time.

    The NRA whispering in Dirty Donnie's ear.
    And his gang of grifters too.

    I am sorry to the electrons who lost their lives in this short lived post so that I may express my frustration.

    Uhh...Wait, this is 'MERICA! F@#K those electrons. They were bad hombre electrons. Winning!
     
    RUDE BOY likes this.
  2. howie105

    howie105 Well-Known Member

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    Bump stocks are IMO a gadget that has a very limited appeal to the gun community in general and even less appeal in the way utility. That said part of the problem is that the ATF itself green lighted the production and sales of bump stocks and the item succeed as a niche market product. Fast forward to this sad incident and the blow back is totally missing the ATF and landing on gun owners in general who are for the most part not involved. So now instead of looking at the process and players everyone has jumped into well know trenches with well known arguments with likely predictable results.
     
  3. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    I am all for a Constitutional convention...but you have to open it all up, not just the 2nd. Perhaps we might put an end to many rights claimed from the so called "penumbra". As to the reasons for the 2nd, I'm not sure how they are any less valid today than they were when it was written.

    Rights based on the "penumbra" are those that look to the Bill of Rights as a whole and tries to determine what they imply. Things like a right to privacy and all that entails. [This would affect contraception, sex acts, abortion, separate but equal is not equal and a host of other things we take for granted as "rights" today.] Once you open things up, it's open. You think people argue now, wait until everything is on the table.

    The reality is, without a convention, there is not going to be an amendment banning firearms. The NRA is not as powerful as it is because of the millions of dollars it spends, but on the millions of votes it represents. And all that is just in making the law. Since the main purpose of the right as expressed is to prevent usurpation of rights by the federal government (Self defense is not just against bears, but the government as well.), enforcing a prohibition against well-armed neighbors who fear that very thing and believe the right was to prevent that very thing, is going to be quite a party.

    [​IMG]

    Edit:
    Another part of the problem is that bump stock results can be had with a rubber band or a belt loop.
    Click to play YouTube Video

    Click to play YouTube Video
     
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  4. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    I guarantee you, if such a law were to be proposed, it would be considered racist. Are there any other civil rights we need permission from the government to exercise?

    (On a tongue-in-cheek side note, to "killing 60 in a matter of minutes something is very wrong. This is not something the founders intended". I assume a person with a musket could kill a single person in a moment. Population today is ~325 million and, in 1790 [The first census just before the Bill of Rights were effective.] was ~4 million. As a percentage of the population, such a killing machine was clearly something the founders contemplated.)

    Edit:
    How many of us are a part of the militia? I'd say all of us. The federal government says:

    10 U.S.C. 246:
    (a)
    The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b)
    The classes of the militia are—
    (1)
    the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2)
    the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.


    Are you of the opinion the 2nd amendment does not give women (not members of the national guard) the right to possess firearms?
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
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  5. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    Google something like: voter id racist
    Then, look at the reasons why. If the cost of obtaining ID is a racist way to prevent people from exercising their voting rights, then, the cost of obtaining liability insurance is a racist way to prevent people from exercising their right to bare arms. (Edit: Um...bear. While we don't have a right to bare arms, I am unaware of a significant number of people against it.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
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  6. howie105

    howie105 Well-Known Member

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    1,486
    Education, teach people the essentials of gun safety and you will save more lives then the never ending, ever repeating gun debate. Almost no one should object to saving lives through education.
     
  7. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    I am not flip about the thing that takes more lives than anything else, I am flip about the arguments for gun control. There are LOTS of things that takes more lives. One purported right that takes lots more lives is abortion. Another might be sugar. Murder, by gun or no, is way down the list.

    Finally, and then I'm out so you can have the last word, it is simply NOT true the "idea of change" is built into the Bill of Rights. They are fundamental normative rules. The purported source is found in the Declaration of Independence "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The basis of liberty is that, even in a democracy, individuals have rights that no majority should be able to take away.
     
  8. Likes2vape

    Likes2vape Well-Known Member

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    No it is not time to repeal the second amendment!!! An armed populace is a safe populace!! The government and police officers should be scared of their citizens not the other way around and that is how it is in America. I’m sorry you feel that the constitution is out dated but it is just as relevant today as it was 200+ years ago. Our forefathers has the foresight to see that is every persons rigt to own and bear arms. I bet if the citizens of North Korea were armed Rocket man and his oppressive regime wouldn’t be in charge.
     
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  9. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    When the constitution was written we didn't have the artillary, ammunition and war type guns that we have now. It shouldn't be a free for all like it is in some states. Also not following the rules or overlooking them and turning their heads the other way in many cases. It's rediculious how obsessed some folks get.

    This week I heard that they are trying to make it easier for unstable people to get guns. WTF with that?

    I'm all for being able to protect yourself and go hunting. It's great if a person has a hobby and they like to go target practicing. There's a lot of BS out there that folks will get their guns taken away when anyone talks of any restrictions.

    The people of America deserve a safe society to live in. I think we need to work towards that. Not sure how we get there? I think education is probably a good start. As soon as there is talk about gun control the NRA shuts everybody down. Probably the strongest lobbiest in WA D.C. because they pay for that privilege with a lot of money. Get the money out of politics!:rant:

    Edit
    Every time there is a big shooting the amounts of guns that people buy goes up. It's insanity and obsessive.

    Trump signed law to help mentally ill get guns | MSNBC
    MSNBC.com › rachel-maddow › watch

    19 hours ago · Rachel Maddow points out the irony of Donald Trump's remarks that the Las Vegas shooter was "sick and ... only legislative accomplishments was a law to make it easier for the mentally ill to get guns.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  10. Gray Area

    Gray Area Well-Known Member

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    757
    Looking from the outside (of the US) it doesn't appear either your government or police are scared of you... :hmm:

    This is the part I don't get... do you really think people would organise and work together as a real opposition and actual threat to the government and power it wields, should you need to? Really?
     
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  11. Likes2vape

    Likes2vape Well-Known Member

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    I’m all for banning bump stocks but this ridiculous notion that every gun is an assault rifle is ludicrous. Just because something looks military doesn’t make it so. Yes I do think the government and especially the police are scared of the standard citizen. That is why they are so quick to shoot an unarmed person because they are scared they are armed. It is also one of the major reasons the why the US has never been invaded by a foreign government, they know they US population is armed!
     
  12. Gray Area

    Gray Area Well-Known Member

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    757
    So them being scared, makes them more likely to shoot you? And you want them to be scared?

    You honestly think that's the reason nobody's invaded??

    I still don't get it...
     
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  13. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    Not really strange. It seems that almost all such laws are racist in nature. As a Nation we had no need for such laws until ex slave owners in the post Civil War feared visits in the night. Then we got gun laws to disarm 'the other guy' (typical). This is the basis of the 'Saturday Night Special' laws (cheap handguns) they first sought to price guns out of the hands of the poor. So it became class prejudice as well. Still is, I guess, since those who would take your guns away still want their armed security. If fact, disarming you makes them safer? Remember when the champion gun grabber at the time, Ted Kennedy's body guard got caught with a full auto Mac 10 in the DC airport (where even loose ammo is a bust)? Let alone the gun was illegal. Nothing happened to the guy I understand, although he didn't get 'his gun' back.

    Here in California we never had slaves, so we have repressive knife laws since we feared Mexicans who use knives (or so the logic goes). Gun (or other weapon) control is very often racist in nature since it's based on fear of folks you don't trust.

    I agree citizens, law abiding and not, should be responsible for the use of the guns they own, same as other dangerous things. I'm big on responsibility. But the statement that "absolutely nothing" is wrong with licensing and registration ignores the idea this is a step to regulation, further restriction and concatenation. Examples abound. For instance detachable mag SKSs here. First they were legal, just declare them. Then illegal, turn them in or else. No problem finding you, they have a list. Fun thing, lists. IMO there's good reason to fear this escalation. Consider what no less a champion of gun rights as Nancy P. said today, "They’re going to say, 'You give them bump stock, it's going to be a slippery slope.' I certainly hope so," she told a reporter at a news conference. From 'this side' the intent is clear no matter how 'reasonable, common sense' it might seem to others. Pirate Logic, straight from Captain Jack Sparrow, 'take what you can, give nothing back'. Saying there is "absolutely nothing wrong with the idea" is either dismissive of a LOT of gun owners honest experience based opinion or ignorant of it.

    I disagree a bit with the last, discussion is key of course, but IMO it all begins with getting the facts straight. That means objectivity, which can, in turn, make it difficult or even impossible to get that good start? I'm in favor of honest discussion, of course, but right now I don't think ANTIFA is going to let John Lott speak...... Nor, do I think, many on 'either side' are listening that well since they both know the truth and know the other side is evil.

    In a fun way this idea, 'an armed American behind every bush' played heavily into Japanese thinking coming up to WWII. Pearl Harbor is credited by some to this idea (avoid an invasion at any cost) in fact. There is reason to fear 'citizen militias' which is why fascists are so fond of rounding up all the gun at the first opportunity?

    In a fun way, 'we' left the Swiss alone (and neutral) in WWII in large part due to all the military rifles in the hands of trained citizens. I wouldn't try to convince them it has no value.

    OF
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  14. HellsWindStaff

    HellsWindStaff Dharma Initiate

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    1,762
    I am enjoying reading this thread; I don't really know how to change the system. I don't really know if it needs changed. I don't own a gun.

    I understand Americans have a special place in their hearts for guns compared to most. Don't know if guns are the problem, evil is evil. I saw this today...

    "Hey America *acid attack* why don't you *gets stabbed* ban guns *nail bomb goes off* so then you'll be safe *gets hit by truck* like us?"

    No disrespect. I don't know how to fix the issue. But it starts with mental health. I understand this guy was seemingly fine, but still believe mental health better investment to stop these things. Cause when guns get banned everything else will just be used.

    I will say that upon initially hearing this, that their was a shooting in Vegas...I barely paid it a thought. Which is sad. It wasn't until I realized the severity that I actually paid attention and informed myself what happened.

    Which just sad that it's become common enough that I didn't think much about it. I remember when Sandy Hook happened, and maybe cause kids but that hit me hard. Literally remember what I was doing and where I was going and type of day when i heard it on radio. 9/11 same way. This will hardly burn into my memory I reckon and that is very sad for humanity...

    Peace and love
     
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  15. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    That's just not true (he says for the third time in a few days) I gave the reference to back that up a page or two back. This shooting is like 14th on the list, the only US shooting in the top 20 world wide. More over, since semi autos are harder to find, they turn to the Black Market (the one that gets drugs wherever they want......), unfortunately that usually means they import a real military assault rifle (like an AK) and the citizens face real machine guns most of the time?

    Best to get the facts straight?

    Careful here, the (military) definition of 'regulated' as above is the same as when you get both barrels of a double rifle to shoot to the same point of aim. Or the wing guns on a WWII fighter. That's what 'regulation' means, not marching in lines and stuff. Able to function as a useful soldier, able to deliver aimed fire. This is a tradition that goes back to middle age England (where many of our traditions come from), where law demanded that peasants be armed and practice regularly. You could be fined or put in the slammer for not taking part. Standing armies put an end to much of that but the idea of citizens trained in the use of arms able to make up a militia as the need arises remains. To this day in the opinions of many. Reading the Federalist Papers gives insight into what the authors of the Bill of Rights really thought, no need to guess or assume......and it wasn't anti gun. Fun reading, although it's been a long time since I have. IMO the principles still apply today.

    OF
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
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  16. howie105

    howie105 Well-Known Member

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    1,486
    After decades of believers selling it to the masses objective has often been compromised by both sides. So debating statistics pro and con often comes down to wanting to believe in the, presentations and conclusions that support our individual positions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
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  17. HellsWindStaff

    HellsWindStaff Dharma Initiate

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    I'd be interested in seeing overall violence/homicides rather then specifically gun violence. it would be interesting to see if US is low on that scale.
     
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  18. Krazy

    Krazy Well-Known Member

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    *Three of the below quotes are Mz. King; picked because they are well written and an example of views held by a number of people. I actually agree more than disagree with her in general on this topic.


    Actually our country IS filled with crazy, stoopid people. :( Remember 1/2 of everyone you meet is below average in intelligence. The entire world is full of crazy, stupid, fraked up people.

    As decided by whom? As in any and all persons that seek help from a councilor or therapist?

    We will just have to agree to disagree on that one, lol. I'm Xmilitary and have never looked forward to putting a bullet into anyone. As a civilian Iv taken risks to talk my way out of things rather than simply (legally) kill someone before. I'm now older, disabled, and caring for my parents. My 12 gauge is for home protection and your disapproval of such maters not a whit. :rolleyes: (to me). I have used it in a non firing way agains an armed home intruder in the past. Having written all of that I can't disagree about a certain group with the mind set you write of.


    So you are not OK with that but anyone with "mental health" issues should be banned from firearm ownership? How about people that suffer from mental symptoms as a direct result of of physical ailment like depression due to menopause or thyroid disorders? Not intended as snarkyness by the way.

    Very true. And unless and until we are willing, as a society, to address a bunch of basic and underlying issues? Our violence issues are not going away. Institutionalized child mistreatment, Implicit racial and religious bias, etc..
     
  19. macbill

    macbill Gregarious Misanthrope

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    Can you stop a Clever Crazy? If someone is hellbent on mass murder, there are many ways to go.
     
  20. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

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  21. Krazy

    Krazy Well-Known Member

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    That is why the Secret Service is so freaky OCD and dialed in. the old truism about an assassination: A smart, dedicated, patient person that is willing to ignore the "...and then escape." part of the plan is incredibly hard to stop.

    There are a couple of very effective methods that have not yet been explored by modern crazy-clevers and I won't mention them here. But simply from a vehicular homicide POV; what if this guy had used a tractor trailer with a full trailer rather than guns?


    It also doesn't help at all when people use emotionally charged, incorrect terminology. It helps even less when they pass laws altering or incorrectly defining a term. From a military perspective an Assault Rifle is one capable of both single shot and fully automatic fire. Under current gun laws it is a cosmetic term. It helps even less, IMO, when people double down on the term, more interested in "being right" than effecting change. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-a-scaletta/ar15s-are-basically-assau_b_10469112.html

    More crazy with semantics: How is an AR-15 equipped with a bump stock NOT an automatic weapon? It is a weapon with autofire capabilities but NOT an automatic weapon as defined by law. :mental:
     
  22. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    Location:
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    Also known as confirmation bias :tup:

    Some interesting stats in there...
    • New York has 8.3 million residents. It is likely to have 335 murders this year.
    • In 2011, Austria, with 8.4 million residents, had 71 murders.
    • Switzerland has 7.9 million residents and 46 murders.
    • The Netherlands, with 16.7 million people - more than twice the population of New York City - had less than half the number of murders (144) in a year.
    • Or, put differently, if New York had the same murder rate (0.8) as Germany, Austria, and Spain, there would have been only 67 murders this year - slightly more than one each week.
    • Toronto -- a city of 2.8 million residents -- had 55 murders in 2012, a rate of 1.9 per 100,000 people. That year Chicago, a city with a similar population size, had 506 murders. Detroit, a city of 701,475 people just across the river from Toronto, recorded 411 homicides last year. Chicago's murder rate was almost 10 times larger than Toronto; Detroit's was about 28 times greater. Detroiters and Chicagoans are so used to the epidemic of killings that they often go unreported in the local media. In Toronto, almost every murder is a front-page story and a topic of public soul-searching.

    :hmm::bang:
    :myday:
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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  23. TboneToker

    TboneToker Medical Enthusiast

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    551
    There is nothing wrong with it, if people couldn't use guns they would use other things.
     
  24. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
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  25. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead FC-OG

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    Another brick in the wall! :bang:
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
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