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WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

Discussion in 'The Vapor Lounge' started by CarolKing, Jul 11, 2015.

  1. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    The young man that killed those 9 people in S Carolina shouldn't have had a gun. There was an error, he had a drug arrest on file which would have eliminated him from getting a gun.

    Americas murders are higher than other parts of the world and most of the time its done with some sort of a hand gun.

    Im not talking about someone who likes to go hunting with a rifle for game like bird, deer or elk. I'm talking about all these idiots walking around with a hand gun.

    I feel frustrated by all the needless deaths and thought I would put this out there. I hope we can be grown ups and be respectful of others feelings, myself included.

    I want to generate intelligent discussions. Violent crimes with guns seem to be through the roof in large cities. I don't want this subject to be a lightening rod for some.

    I have some serious questions about the affect the NRA has on our lawmakers and their decisions that they make.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
  2. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    This from the Washington Examiner a conservative newspaper. June 2015

    With Washington largely silent on gun control after the Charleston, S.C., shootings and the national debate steering to a fight over flying the Confederate flag, advocates of the Second Amendment are declaring victory.

    Citing recent surveys in support of arms, the National Rifle Association said, "The polls suggest that the public has thoroughly rejected the gun control talking points."

    In one poll cited by the group, Rasmussen Reports found that a majority of Americans would rather live in a neighborhood where residents were allowed to own guns. And a Gallup poll has shown a steady decline in support for stricter gun laws.

    "These results are bad news for gun control advocates, who spent the 1990s trying to convince Americans that close proximity to firearms posed a threat to their safety," said the NRA.

    The topic was a hot one last week during a mayors conference in California, but many admitted that there is a political lack of will to take on the fight both in Washington and in state legislatures.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
  3. WoodVillain

    WoodVillain Backwoods Rated

    Messages:
    643
    Good topic. Im on the opposite side of thinking but im grown up enough to discuss it civilly.

    Im a little lit.... SO it might not be great writing though LOL.. But understand im not arguing at all, just discussing it from my side of the fence...

    A little about me to begin... Im from the south, grew up with guns. I had a rifle when i was 12, got my first handgun the DAY i turned 21. Im also disabled Army and was an expert marksman while enlisted.

    I also had a stray bullet fly through my bedroom window back in March this year. I have been robbed at gunpoint as well. So i see both sides... But Im still for FREEDOM.

    Now my side of the argument.... Really it boils down to freedom. The entire idea behind this great nation that i have fought for, that many have died for. FREEDOM. If we take the guns from the good people your left with ONLY the criminals having guns.

    Most the violent crimes that are committed are not committed by people using their own legally purchased firearm, so why punish everyone for the people already breaking the law?

    You cant eliminate guns anymore than you can eliminate drugs. You can only eliminate our freedoms and leave the righteous unarmed and unable to fend for themselves.

    How can we say we want MJ legal but want to take freedoms from others? Understanding that SOME people are doing things they shouldnt with BOTH, but MANY are using/owning responsibly.

    Freedom to choose is what i fought for. I love that everyone can believe in their own religions, i love that we can own guns and knives, i love that i can catch my food and prepare it like my ancestors did.

    I also love that you can have your opinion on this matter and i can have mine, and we can discuss it like adults... without anyone having their heads chopped off :lmao:
     
  4. Joel W.

    Joel W. Deplorable Basement Dweller Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,778
    I think it was the fear of The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Brady bill) taking or not letting you buy guns that drove the gun sales of assault rifles and handguns back in the 90's, or at least it was in my case. Then more of the same in 07 from NRA crew saying "Obama is gonna take yur guns" fears that lead to what we have today (more gun rights).

    Fears from the fox news 24hr fear shows, to fear of the zombie apocalypse, fear the economic collapse, fear the super volcanos, fear of polar shifts, fear the global warming, fear the asteroids, fear the poor, fear the terrorists, fear y2k, fear the mayan calendar in 12'.

    I subscribed to the "It's Better to have one and not need it, than need one and not have it" policy.

    Sometimes I think if everyone carried, and everyone knew everyone else carried, there might actually be less BS in the world as the stupid would thin out quickly and the rest would show respect for one another.
    I know it's a silly idea and more guns is not the answer but there is something seriously wrong with the way people are wired mentally whether it's due to movie/video game violence constantly numbing us into killing each other or what but I don't blame the gun itself I guess..

    I think we would just kill each other with knives, rocks, sticks and arrows again, It would be harder yes but outlawing guns won't stop the violence. Criminals will not follow the laws and when we live in an age where one can 3d print a working weapon, well. I am not sure how you could really control guns now?
     
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  5. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    Another side of the coin too if there is a gun in the home and if a person is having problems with depression it's easier to commit suicide if a gun is in the house.

    Often in some households the gun isn't stored properly and can get in the hands of a child.

    How often is a gun stolen by an unsavory character and used in a crime?

    You maybe entirely responsible with your gun but not all gun owners are responsible like yourself. I thank all of you that served in the military by the way.

    It seemed the Tea Party spread humors that Obama (the black president) will take your guns away.
     
  6. NickDlow

    NickDlow Log Hog

    Messages:
    2,223
    I have to agree with @WoodVillain on this one. I've been robbed at gunpoint with the barrel pressed against my temple. I can almost guarantee that gun was acquired illegally. Just like a majority of guns used in crimes.

    If I had my 1911 on me at the time that whole situation would have been A LOT different. I was out $2,500 and lost my dignity for a bit.

    What kind of gun control would you like to see? This isn't directed at one person but in general. If you take the guns always completely from legal owners then as Wood said that leaves the criminals with their illegal guns.

    If everyone carried and everyone knew then there would defiantly a whole lot less shit goin on. I'm not trying to offend anyone but if those 9 poor souls were armed(yea I know they were in church n stuff but for argument sake), that's 9vs1 I doubt that sick fuckin bigot would have got a second shot off.

    But this is a very touchy subject so once again I'm just discussing and not trying to offend anyone.
     
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  7. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    I don't really know what kind of gun control? But there needs to be something in place better than how it is now. I'm not saying to take all the hand guns away, there just needs to be better control. Keep them away from crazy people would be a start.

    What do they do in other countries that seem to work? There aren't nearly the killings in Cananda as in the U.S.

    My husband has a couple of rifles that he used to hunt with back in the day and he has no intentions of getting rid of them. We keep them locked up.

    EDIT

    I don't have the answers - I would like to see less fatalities associated with guns - just putting it out there.

    I don't favor one gun over another. I don't even know a lot about different guns and ammunition. I know plenty of you out there that do. I live a pretty sheltered life I think compared to some living in large cities. I live in a small community and have for years. It affects us too, just not at such a great level. I've never been held up at gunpoint.

    A meth addict walked in my house once hid in my bedroom closet and scared the shit out of me. He thought he was being chased by gang members. I ran to the neighbors and called the police. He was arrested, he didn't have a gun luckily.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
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  8. nihil

    nihil Member, Known Well

    Messages:
    410
    @CarolKing, with respect, can you define the question "WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?" What would you like to see enacted regarding "gun control" in the individual states as well as federally?

    From your initial post it seems that you are fine with rifles, but not hand guns?

    Or would you want hand guns limited to certain people? If so, what is your criteria?

    Are all rifles equal? The "AWB Ban" of 1994 expired in 2004, and now we can again purchase imported semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines and pistol grips, folding stocks, and bayonet lugs. Is this bad in your view point?

    I ask these questions with absolute respect for you, but am weary of the lack of details regarding both pro and anti gun people in the States. The laws in place tend to be hypocritical, and the laws proposed tend to be ignorant of the larger problem (if it can even be defined by gun legislation).
     
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  9. NickDlow

    NickDlow Log Hog

    Messages:
    2,223
    Exactly you keep yours locked up, which is how they should be kept if the is a chance of a child or crazy person getting access.

    When a child or mentally unstable person aquires a gun, then the owner of that firearm should be held responsible IMO.

    If a mentally unstable person gets one legally that's an issue. But is it possible to give every person a legit psyc test before they buy a gun? No but maybe they should.

    As far as a depressed person, yes it's easier to pull a trigger than most acts of suicide but if they are unstable enough, God forbid they will find a way. Also how is a person selling a gun going to know someone's future, wether it's divorce, loss of a loved one, financial ruin or any other "reason" for depression? You can't. It's life and shit happens.

    Idk about other countries but I know in Mexico guns are completely illegal. How's that working out for them?

    Edit: I'm not trying to badger, insult or offend anyone so if I do please say so n I'll shut the hell up lol.
     
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  10. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    You're absolutely right you can't possible know a persons future. We get our licenses for our cars renewed after so many years maybe that could be something that could be used with firearms? Just a suggestion.

    My dad was drunk many years ago, he was in the military he got his gun out and threatened to shoot my mom. My mom pretended like she fainted and my dad changed his tone and was all of a sudden worried for her. He bent down and asked her if she was OK, and my older brother took the gun out of his hand. So I guess I do have that memory.

    EDIT. Here is a graph from a few years ago. Wow!!

    Firearm homicide rates in selected high-income countries, 2010

    [​IMG]

    In a 2013 article for The Atlantic online that compared gun homicides in US cities to some of the deadliest places in the world, the authors created a map, below, that shows Atlanta has the same gun murder rate as South Africa, Detroit as El Salvador, Phoenix equal to Mexico’s gun homicide rate:


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
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  11. killick

    killick But I like it!

    Messages:
    1,722
    Location:
    Okanagan
    In Canada the process to acquire a handgun is different from the process to acquire a long gun (restricted v unrestricted), with each having their own rules for use and carry. For example I am only allowed to transport a handgun between my residence and a shooting range, and I'm not supposed to stop for shopping and such when it's in the car.

    Another interesting rule - my license is good for 5 years, and if I let it lapse I could go to jail for up to 5 years! But if I killed someone with a car and I've been drinking I'll maybe get 6 months. So we have those kinds of incentives, as well...

    Most of the shootings in Canada tend to be from unregistered and stolen firearms, and the shooters tend to be unlicensed.

    As for suicide, that can be done with a handful of most anything in a typical north american medicine cabinet. Firearms just make it louder and messier...
     
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  12. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    @nihil guess the title was a bit rough. I could have stated it - " How can we solve gun violence in America? "

    I think FC reflects how Americans feel about their firearms so far. Guns have been important to folks since they were invented. It looks the the Chinese invented it back in the 1000s AD it was a contraption that shot spears that were on fire. They used it to kill their leader or King is what I read.

    It looks like they invented the first bongs too.

    Folks - give ideas how people can live safer with guns in America. This doesn't need to be people for or against guns.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
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  13. frostyrod

    frostyrod Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    51
    I'm a bleeding heart progressive liberal, who also happens to be a born and bred redneck. The gun control issue is such a catch22 in America. It's so ingrained the conservatives will bleed for it and liberals are half afraid to touch it. I mean it was supposedly sewn into the fabric of this country, Betsy Ross might as well have used Gun Blued thread to touch up the field of Blue. That being said I don't think this whole gun control issue will ever get solved any time soon. I'm all for responsible gun ownership and protecting the rights of those who own guns and want to hunt responsibly and sustainably, and to be honest we Need hunters in the US since we have wiped out all the native predators. The problem is that the way the situation currently sits every time someone mentions Gun Control. The Right screams "2nd Amendment" like it's written in stone, like it was inscribed in the document by God him/herself and heaven forbid anyone try to remove the American's right to grasp his cold hard steel in a time of imminent peril. (It's funny one of the most densely populated cities in the world, New York, isn't subject to random Home invasions, but down south where there is hardly any people the biggest argument for firearms is to protect their home from Random Home Invasions, They might as well throw a net to keep their kids safe in their beds from Shark attacks too). However, they don't realize that "Amendment" itself means an addition/addon/ or Change. The whole purpose of a living breathing document that can be Amended and changed is the founders intended it to grow and evolve with the country and society, and for most situations it has, civil rights, women's right, marriage rights etc. But don't go trying to suggest gun right changes... It almost feels like a no win situation. A tragedy happens the left calmly says "lets have a conversation about gun control". Then the right screams "THEY ARE COMING TO TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS!" And nobody said anything about taking away guns, we just do not want them in the hands of the mentally unstable and members of society who have shown they do not want to play by the laws and rules of the land. The right complains about new laws being made, that we should just enforce the laws we already have. Yet when we try to enforce the laws we have, like tracking down felons with guns and taking them away... they scream "See we told you they were coming after our guns". I fear the only real solution "is" to remove the problem. I'm just mostly sad that the country is so polarized that there can only be two workable solutions: A vigilante society with no gun control. Or a police state with no guns. [7]
     
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  14. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    @frostyrod i enjoyed your post I liked how you stated the issue. Welcome to FC friend. It just seems like the Wild West in some of the big cities, Seattle is the largest city I live by. There are so many innocent lives gone needlessly do to shootings every single day.

    I don't have any answers. Thanks folks for adding your opinions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
  15. ragnorak71

    ragnorak71 Well-Known Member

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    220
    this feels a little like therapy. the answer is obvious but means nothing if others have to provide it for you

    it does shock me a little to see the argument of more people being armed is somehow a preventative measure. arm the teachers to stop the high school massacres. just stop making guns and it gets a whole lot better

    it is much easier for these criminal type chaps to illegally acquire guns when there are so many guns washing about to try and meet the demand to arm every american twice over

    i dunno guys, just dont get it. i read about how you lot feel this was in the fabric of your constitution from the beginning

    over here in england it was legal until a few years ago to twat a welshman as long as you were using a longbow. doesnt mean we are all tooling around like robin hood

    right, well i am sure that will offend pretty much everyone but it is not meant too, rambling more as stem works...
     
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  16. frostyrod

    frostyrod Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    51
    Look, I get it, I grew up in Texas some of my earliest memories are of going out and blowing shit up with our guns, target shooting, rabbit hunting, quail hunting. But really most of your arguments for keeping guns in order to protect 'FREEDOM' have already been exhausted and proven wrong and tested by other first world "free" countries with only good results. Once you remove the bulk of illicit firearms the black market is so bottlenecked that illegal and blackmarket guns sell for Thousands of dollars, this is what "criminals" have to come up with to attain guns in Australia, and Britain for example. Most of your 2 bit hoods, criminals, street gangs etc. can't afford a gun to go come in and take your freedoms away. And the criminals that can afford the guns (Basically the mob and mafia types) aren't going to be going around to every Bubba in Georgia to ruin their Saturday evening of Nascar. And look taking away peoples handguns, tracking hunting weapons etc. isn't going to "punish" anyone. But what it does do is provide a system and create a working society where we "all" can send our children off to school, and our families off to Church or the Movies without worrying about some guy that forgot to take his medication getting his/her hands on M16 that Uncle Jeb modified with a 3 burst fire selector, a flash suppressor and an extended capacity magazine, showing up and taking them out. Controlling guns stops this, again I point to Australia that virtually eliminated their mass killing rates once they started deeply controlling firearms. Again I don't see how you marry "gun ownership" with Freedom. Living a happy life, being able to not worry about the mentally ill or violent running around with easy access to firearms is freedom, not Smith and Wesson always at the ready under your pillow just so you can accidentally shoot your child through the thin drywall if you hear a bump in the middle of the night . And i'm not pointing any of these comments directly at "you" or your choices. These are just general responses addressing your statements. I "know" that most gun owners are responsible and only want what is best for their family. But we can't keep allowing firearms to flow through the country so cheaply, easily accessible, and readily available. I want hunters to still have their guns and be able to teach their daughters and sons to go out and provide meat for their family just like their fathers did with them. And those guns should be licensed and tracked to a person who has gone through all the proper channels to insure nobody is going to die because of them owning it. Look we have to study for hours, take a 30-50 question test, check our eyes, take a ride with someone that is watching our every move... Just so we can drive a car around. Yet if we want a gun, for most americans, all we have to do is pick up the classifieds, and meet some guy in a parking lot with 50 bucks... yes it really is that easy in most of America, and it shouldn't be.

    Edit: I wanted to add that for the most part most of my argument is null and void anyway, since mentioning gun control in America is akin to Slapping Jesus across the face. So you really don't have anything to worry about, i'm pretty sure that Americas gun "rights" and gun "access" will stay in place for at the very least yours and part of your children's life times. The only people that benefit from either side even opening the topic is gun and ammo manufactures because everytime someone cries "Wolf" they double their prices and mark ups, as you well know if you've bought any guns or ammo over the past few years. BTW those prices have nothing to do with government regulations and Taxes. They are all caused by fear mongering from the Right, greedy arms and ammo companies and NRA lobbyists. I'd save that next check to the NRA if I were you, you're gonna need it to afford a brick of .22 long or box of 30/06 to get that delicious elk steak.

    I have to commend you on even opening up this Topic that was very brave, especially over "this" topic. As for me i'm suicidal with my rhetoric and fear no down votes. At the very least I feel that the "herbal" community has a larger measure of pacifists than other communities, so that my comments won't be so totally drowned out by the indignantly armed among us.

    Mod note: posts merged
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2015
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  17. WoodVillain

    WoodVillain Backwoods Rated

    Messages:
    643
    Removing the bulk of illicit firearms is not going to happen...EVER. Criminals are not giving them up... Black market guns wouldnt go for thousands either. They dont now. You can get black market full autos without a class 3 or even writing your name down for well under a grand if you know where to look. There are stock piles of firearms all over this nation. Waiting for stuff just like we are talking about. Wouldnt change if the government tried to control or remove guns... More people would just be considered outlaws. Lots more.

    Imagine if all criminals KNEW nobody, no good law abiding citizen anyway, walking down the road, or sleeping in their bed peacefully had a gun... What would stop them from taking whatever they wanted whenever they wanted?

    The fear of death is the ONLY deterrent i trust. Criminals aint scared to go to jail these days. You ever been to jail? 3 hots and a cot with color tv and radios. Some have it worse on the street.

    Im not that book smart... but i have a little bit of real world experience in this topic... People that have their minds made up wont change them. Me and you included. I was simply explaining my side of the situation.

    Like you said, arguing guns, is like arguing religion. I try not to argue either as im for the right to be FREE. Including the right to feel how we each wish on this subject.

    Suns coming up now... Take care and best wishes to all!!
     
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  18. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

    There are actually more murders in Russia than America (80% with guns). But America wins on the amount of guns - 100 guns per 100 people. Russia has 9 guns per 100 people. Interesting facts. These stats are from a little while ago.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
  19. VapourHaze

    VapourHaze Rexcornish on IG, Vaping since '02

    Messages:
    602
    Location:
    Eurocentric

    You are only free to so whatever they tell you to do. You dont really have any freedom.

    If nobody has guns then there is hardly any gun crime ... its very simple

    In the US 3.2 killed per 100,000
    In the uk 0.1 killed per 100,000

    Pretty big difference, the average person in the uk will likely never have any interaction with a gun. Ive never seen, heard or know anyone who has any access to illegal firearms.

    Guns for teachers in schools? That is just plain crazy.

    You are not safer beacause you have a gun.

    Russia does not report their firearm homicide statistics.

    The fairest comparison is to compare US stats to all other developed countries. Unfortunately you are by far top of the bill.

    Sorry double post :(

    Mod note: posts merged
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2015
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  20. WoodVillain

    WoodVillain Backwoods Rated

    Messages:
    643
    Yall keep pulling me back in.... I could of let it go had you not said "You dont really have any freedom." Dont tell me that i got buddies that DIED and i personally can never work again or even drive a car again at only 31 for something you dont think exist? You can bet veterans and their families worldwide would have a lot to say about that.

    Go to the middle east, go to north Korea... got to to one of many other countries and then come here and say we dont have any freedoms.

    I can question my leader, we can vote for the leader, i had the choice weather or not to serve my country, i had the option to buy a firearm, im allowed to keep my electric on and wear what ever clothes i wish, my wife can vote, can dress how she wants, we can believe in whatever religion we want and meet in public, men can marry men (some states?), women can hold office... These are freedoms weather you want to acknowledge it or not.

    "If nobody has guns then there is hardly any gun crime "

    Logically, if NOBODY has ANY guns, then there isnt ANY gun crime EVER....

    Hey if there was a button to magically make every single gun, missile, nuke, bomb ect, AND THE HUMAN WILL to create more AND THE WILL TO HARM OTHERS disappear and never return... Id press it for you all... I can still hunt with a bow and LOVE to fish.

    The problem is... We dont live on the Disney channel. Magic is not real. And ALL firearms will never be able to be controlled. Its way too easy to make a zip gun. And being the only one without a gun when one is needed is a side of the fence i dont want to be on.


    This last part... "You are not safer beacause you have a gun."

    Im not sure how you figure this... A firearm has save my life on more than one occasion. I have also prevented a woman from being raped with a firearm. Im pretty sure she was safer because i was carrying then as well. Maybe YOU are not safer because in YOUR country nobody has a gun... But around here.... A gun wont save your life... But having one AND the proper training could!
     
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  21. ragnorak71

    ragnorak71 Well-Known Member

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    220
    stage one: denial

    you are thinking too small, irrelevant about anecdotal i saved a squirrel malarky

    eradicate and educate and break the cycle but until you lot can lift your head and see past the shadows on the wall there is no real point to this discussion
     
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  22. WoodVillain

    WoodVillain Backwoods Rated

    Messages:
    643
    Well there are police reports from the incident, i had to go fill out a report and everything obviously. And come on by and i can show you my dd214 to prove my military background and training. Cant post it online for the world... But anyone in person is welcome to see it.

    Using big words to try and call me a liar doesnt hide the fact your trying to call me a liar.
     
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  23. ragnorak71

    ragnorak71 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    220
    i hope this is not aimed at me but if it is then i apologise if thats the impression i gave. my point in saying irrelevant was not to say you were lying but that it means nothing in the bigger picture. for every gun used to prevent a crime there will be more used committing them

    hope that helps, also if i want to call someone a liar i will do so and there will be no need to clarify
     
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  24. WoodVillain

    WoodVillain Backwoods Rated

    Messages:
    643
    Sorry if i took it the wrong way... I drank a bit and havent been to sleep.... If i took it the wrong way i do apologize, like said im not great with books or big words. In all honesty i googled anecdotal and malarky and the definitions gave me the impression you were saying i was lying.

    This is why i try and not get involved though. It starts peacefully... But it always goes downhill. Normally my fault i can admit... Im proud. Freedom plays on my patriotism.

    But I also come to this forum to get away from my regular life... to avoid politics, to NOT think about this stuff. But i thought it could be a peaceful convo on every side. I have no reason to make stuff up on here. I dont see why anyone would make stuff up to impress people they will never meet, see, or even HAVE to talk to... I thought my point of view would be helpful due to the past and experience i have and thats the only reason i joined in. I like Carol and love her posts so wanted to join in and explain it from the other side.

    But I dont want to argue.. I got 2 small kids and a wife on the rag if i wanted to argue id wake them up LOL

    Sorry again, and ill leave this thread to you fine folk!!
     
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  25. h3rbalist

    h3rbalist I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too

    Messages:
    934
    There has so be someting about the mentally surrounding guns in the US.

    These stats regarding developed country's speak for themselves.

    Also questions have to be asked as to why Canada who have similar quantities of guns have three times less murders/deaths caused by guns.


    Speaking honesty I can say that if I carried a hand gun (even with the correct training) I would have murdered 10 people already. Through road rage incidents, EDIT 'alcohol', red mist monents in my teenage years especially. I may even have taken out a family member, cheeting girlfriends, bastard teachers from school. Who knows???? Guess it's just lucky I live in a country where guns are not considered the normal and my folks didn't give me a semi automatic for my 13th birthday.

    One thing my Dad said sticks in my mind about how the West was won from the Native Americans with the force of guns. Maybe that has sonething to do with the 'from my cold dead hands' mentality that seems to be so prevalent in the US.

    :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015

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