The Pax and MFLB: a subjective comparison

[JDSupreme]

Now that I've thought about it, if you pack it in you are forcing more material into contact with the heating surface. I therefore retract my statement that it has no effect at all. I still think it has nothing to do with conducting heat.

This is basically it. Beat me to it. Fine grind + packed oven = the more surface of the plant touching the heat source

 

[stickstones]

I think there's conduction going on throughout a tightly packed a load.

 

[rayski]

I think there's conduction going on throughout a tightly packed a load.

I tamp my lb load because I think it eliminates air space which would insulate and not be conducive to conduction.

 

[stickstones]

interesting tip, rayski. I tap it too, but not for this very good reason...it never occurred to me.

If you look at the pics joekickass posted of his Pax loads after use it's pretty clear it is getting cooked all the way through, without stirring, too, I think.

 

[JDSupreme]

interesting tip, rayski. I tap it too, but not for this very good reason...it never occurred to me.

If you look at the pics joekickass posted of his Pax loads after use it's pretty clear it is getting cooked all the way through, without stirring, too, I think.

In my short experience with it so far, it needs a stir or 2 for an evenly toasted load, this can be done by tapping the side like the LB as well if no tool is handy.

 

[Dammit]

In my short experience with it so far, it needs a stir or 2 for an evenly toasted load, this can be done by tapping the side like the LB as well if no tool is handy.

I use the flat screw driver/file on a Swiss Army knife as a spatula to take the loaf out of the oven and flip it. If I'm lucky, it comes out in one piece. If I wait too long to flip between sessions, it comes out in a couple pieces because the bottom is all dried out.

 

[pakalolo]

I think there's conduction going on throughout a tightly packed a load.

I don't. As I said, plant material, dry or not, is a lousy thermal conductor. If it weren't, you wouldn't be able to hang on to a joint for long.

The even cooking referred to is almost certainly due to the increased secondary convection that happens in the Pax over the LB. The wider mouthpiece allows you to move a lot more hot air through the chamber.

 

[kushcabbage]

I don't. As I said, plant material, dry or not, is a lousy thermal conductor. If it weren't, you wouldn't be able to hang on to a joint for long.

The even cooking referred to is almost certainly due to the increased secondary convection that happens in the Pax over the LB. The wider mouthpiece allows you to move a lot more hot air through the chamber.

Accutaly pakalolo the mouthpiece is not fully open like it looks, if you look straight down it is blocked with a small hole to one side where the stainless steel air path is through the body. I always thought it was a large wide opening as well until I received my own pax.

 

[Haywood]

This is turning out to be a great thread; who would have guessed? I too was a beta tester for Magic Flight (LaunchBox and LaunchTube). I think the world of Magic Flight and feel they're the model for the kind of company (and people) I like to deal with. ThermoEssence too. That said, I also haven't used my LB for almost a year.

Couple of thoughts.

In the non-specific, something I rarely see mentioned in "mine is better than yours" discussions is the realization that no single device is best suited for all circumstances. Even among similar devices (eg., portable vs. portable or AC bag system vs. AC tube system). Most good vaporizers have some things they do better than anyone else, and some things they don't. The Solo isn't part of this discussion, but it's a perfect example of doing some things exceptionally, and sucking at other things (like how stealth is sucking vapor through a big glass tube sticking out of a big metal gizmo, even if it tastes great). Part of the secret of being happy is recognizing the things that are important to how you want to use your vaporizer, and buying the product that best suits your needs. Or buy two different products, using each when it's appropriate. Or buy six .

Some specifics.

LB
When it has to be fast and as odorless as possible, it's still pretty hard to beat the LB. Few seconds to warm up, three or four thin (but still full of medication) hits, and with no one the wiser, you're done (pun intended). Repeat as needed, or just take five or six hits. Fast, tiny, almost odorless. On the other hand, when I don't have to hide in the corner, I like more powerful hits, even if it is bit wasteful. And when I'm home, even with the PA, I'd rather use my Volcano or one of my TV toys.

The battery part really sucks. I mean really sucks. And it's more than just having to carry around a bag of batteries. It's been at least a year since I've been over to the LB thread, so maybe this has changed, but all of the LB's that have passed through my hands (over a dozen) have suffered from long term ill battery connections. I used to buy a half dozen at a time and give them to my friends as gifts, to convert them from their combustion one hitters, and after 6 months of use we all had to continually play with the battery to get the LB to work well. All of us also found that using the PA stretched out the circular negative contact enough to make battery use more than just intermittent. Yes, I know Magic Flight will send me (and my friends) new ones, but we've all sort of moved on; it's a shame, actually, because I got much joy from my LB. The LB with a PA is still a wonderful thing, btw, if a little unwieldy.

Pax
I don't have one (yet; I'm waiting), so this is just my thoughts from what I've read here in the Pax thread. I'm encouraged by reports of how well it works in providing a reasonable hit, with reasonable efficiency, with no minding (stirring) necessary unless desired. I'm encouraged by how many hits you can get from one bowl, and how many bowls you can get from one charge. I'm encouraged that maybe, just maybe, I can finally travel (fly) with one without much of a chance of getting hassled (i.e., with proper cleaning, and loaded with tobacco first). I'm encouraged about how it looks, though I won't know if I like the mouthpiece until I actually have one. On the other hand, I'm worried a bit about the company. I understand their reluctance to have anything to do with people-like-us, but that certainly doesn't endear me to them. But it's too early to tell how they are as a company, and I haven't come to any conclusion yet. I'm discouraged by the reports of power buttons dissolving with ISO (or whatever is causing the rash of reports of stuck power buttons). I'm discouraged by reports of sticking mouthpieces. I'm discouraged by the non-user accessible battery, and reports that their battery charging circuitry may be less than stellar with dealing with a heavily discharged battery. I'm hoping this is just "new company" and "first run" stuff, and it will all be resolved in a short amount of time. Still, wouldn't this kind of stuff (if the power button actually melts on contact with ISO) have shown up in preliminary testing? So instead of buying one immediately, I decided to wait a bit. It's killing me not having one though; it has party mode!

 

[OF]

Great discussion.

I own several LBs but have never seen, let alone used or own the PAX. I'm trying to read the thread there but for a couple reasons it's going slow. First off, amazing volume. I read when I have time to devote to it, but sometimes feel like the guy chasing the car that just changed gears and started pulling away as he gets closer at full throttle. Folks there can post faster than I can take it in sometimes. There's also a lot of strongly held opinions there (a good thing, of course), but much of it coming from first time buyers and folks with little posting history. Not that having a few dozen posts makes your opinion any less valid, it's just I tend to put more stock in the opinions of 'known suspects' with broad experience. Posters asking how it smells then posting how wonderful it (or any device is) a week or two later don't carry as much weight with me so it's taking me longer than normal.

It can be brutal there, more so than many other Forums around here. One poor chap posted he didn't like the heat build up and wanted to sell his and wait for D9 to release a herb cart. Nearly instantly he was openly accused of being a shill for D9 (in a post 'liked' by a disturbing number of folks) and another guy all but calling him a liar (not even owning one) and insisting he post a photo of his unit with his user name on a background that couldn't be Photoshopped! Chutzpah where I come from. This makes it hard for me to separate the wheat from the chaff.

All that said, it seems to me both units have a place in the market, but I don't think it's the same place. On one hand we have a frugal 'folksy' unit that has a lot of flexibility but is complex to use. On the other is a unit that is very simple to use, but inflexible WRT use (needing larger full loads to work, having longer warm up time, etc.). The PAX will also work in any position, a shortcoming with LB in that the load can fall out of contact with the trench.

One seems to favor the (IMO more common) low tolerance user. The PAX would seem to favor the heavier users who 'need' a larger dose of THC at one time and don't want to be dealing with multiple trenches and batteries. This 'decision point' (heavy or light dosage) might be a key factor here, perhaps the most important one? It may be putting us into 'camps' in and of itself.

I realize I'm rambling, and it's time to get back to reading, but that's my take on it thus far. As I'm seeing it it's not so much as a 'one or the other' deal as a 'which tool will suit my needs?' one? Indeed, for some users both would make sense? I understand, of course, many don't have that option.

Edit: Another point is marketing. Right now I can buy a MFLB 'all over the place' at competitive pricing with various 'sweeteners' offered in the packages. PAX not so. Not only 'is the fix in' and nobody allowed to offer discounts but perhaps my favorite Dealer, Planet Vape, is not allowed to sell them to the US! I cannot support them with my business even within the protectionist pricing structure. As a consumer I don't like the free market being circumvented (costing me more money) nor do I like not having as many choices in who I do business with. I understand this is 'maximizing the return on investment' for the domestic distributor, but I'm a customer and that's where much of my interests lie. (OF)

OF

 

[Slightly Medicated]

All that said, it seems to me both units have a place in the market, but I don't think it's the same place. On one hand we have a frugal 'folksy' unit that has a lot of flexibility but is complex to use. On the other is a unit that is very simple to use, but inflexible WRT use (needing larger full loads to work, having longer warm up time, etc.). The PAX will also work in any position, a shortcoming with LB in that the load can fall out of contact with the trench.

One seems to favor the (IMO more common) low tolerance user. The PAX would seem to favor the heavier users who 'need' a larger dose of THC at one time and don't want to be dealing with multiple trenches and batteries. This 'decision point' (heavy or light dosage) might be a key factor here, perhaps the most important one? It may be putting us into 'camps' in and of itself.

OF

Very well said. I had been thinking this... but I don't think I could put it so eloquently. Different strokes. Bottom line is finding a device that will suite your needs. Like you said, I think the light/heavy dosage requirements are a key factor as well.

 

[OF]

Very well said. I had been thinking this... but I don't think I could put it so eloquently. Different strokes. Bottom line is finding a device that will suite your needs. Like you said, I think the light/heavy dosage requirements are a key factor as well.

Thank you very much. Trust me, putting it into words didn't happen casually. I've been thinking about it off and on for many hours.

I might not be in the same league as you when it comes to perfectionism but the written word (not to mention this awkward language we pinched off the Brits....) is a handicap to clear communication all too often. I'm sure I sweat it too much for some, but I hate the idea of conveying a false impression.

Your point is well taken. In an off the shelf world, full of one size fits all thinking, we are still individuals first and foremost. That effects everything even remotely subjective. Even if it wasn't getting you stoned at the same time.

Trying to 'be all things to all people' is what destroyed my love life.......

Anyway, thanks again for the kind words, high praise indeed given the source as they say. Fun topic, for sure. It can get past the simplistic 'this or that' kind of thing real easy, doncha think?

OF

 

[darkrom]

Very well said. I had been thinking this... but I don't think I could put it so eloquently. Different strokes. Bottom line is finding a device that will suite your needs. Like you said, I think the light/heavy dosage requirements are a key factor as well.

Definitely. Pak certainly vaporizes differently from I do, and the things that led me away from the MFLB after years of use, are the exact things that bring him back to it. Besides factoring in peoples different medical needs there will always be personal preference.

I know Pak LOVES his MFLB, so I kind of expected a 100% favor of the MFLB review from this thread. That being said there is some good information such as load sizes.

Honestly between Paks and JDS posts you have what seems like 100% accurate information coming from both parties, but both concluding that one is better than the other...TO THEM.

If this thread stays civil it should be used as the prime example of a peaceful discussion here. Successfully comparing 2 different hot items without a flame war?! BRAVO


@Pak just curious from your posts, it is clear that you've managed to get and keep a low tolerance to the point where the MFLB achieves great results. Have you ever used something like Da Buddha or a cloud or something like that? Would you say it is simply overmedicating or something? I remember fondly using the MFLB with great results, but my tolerance simply doesn't allow it anymore. The harshness of using it many times back to back to get good results rendered it useless to me finally. That was a sad day when I sold mine to Vicki.

It can be brutal there, more so than many other Forums around here. One poor chap posted he didn't like the heat build up and wanted to sell his and wait for D9 to release a herb cart. Nearly instantly he was openly accused of being a shill for D9 (in a post 'liked' by a disturbing number of folks) and another guy all but calling him a liar (not even owning one) and insisting he post a photo of his unit with his user name on a background that couldn't be Photoshopped! Chutzpah where I come from. This makes it hard for me to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Stuff like this is either happening more, or the shills of the old days were much better at it

Its a disturbing trend and I'm grateful to have this site where the mods are active about picking out shills. The pax form is "aggressive" in the pros and cons I've definitely noticed that too. I'm going to attribute that to being a vape of "high interest" and say it is not necessarily a bad thing. Nothing like an outcry, positive or negative, to speed up research.

I've been following the pax with interest. I really enjoy my thermovape and don't have much cash left, so I don't know that I'd be switching any time soon, but I can see myself trying it at some point when the longer term feedback is in.

I think the MFLB is definitely enough IF you can vape a trench and be satisfied with the results. Since I'm the type of user who would need several trenches, I doubt I'd ever pick up a "low dose" portable again.

 

[bleak]

All that said, it seems to me both units have a place in the market, but I don't think it's the same place. On one hand we have a frugal 'folksy' unit that has a lot of flexibility but is complex to use. On the other is a unit that is very simple to use, but inflexible WRT use (needing larger full loads to work, having longer warm up time, etc.). The PAX will also work in any position, a shortcoming with LB in that the load can fall out of contact with the trench.

One seems to favor the (IMO more common) low tolerance user. The PAX would seem to favor the heavier users who 'need' a larger dose of THC at one time and don't want to be dealing with multiple trenches and batteries. This 'decision point' (heavy or light dosage) might be a key factor here, perhaps the most important one? It may be putting us into 'camps' in and of itself.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

I love the LB a lot, and I think it will hold a place in my collection for a long time to come. But I did find the Pax to be considerably better, for my preferred style of vaping I like the big chamber, big hits, more potent, more airflow type of vaporizers. I'll also say that the Pax is an all-around easier to use device than the LB. Using the Pax involves a lot less fiddling around. I like having the ability to load a nice big bowl and sit back knowing I can get as high as I want, without being interrupted by continuously reloading herb and/or batteries. Its only a convenience thing, but if you're using a device virtually every day, the little do things add up... and they do affect the enjoyment of a session if you like to get really high like me

 

[pakalolo]

First, congratulation to OF for a great analysis. I agree completely that they are different vapourizers that will appeal to users with different requirements. As I said earlier this list was originally intended to show someone who was interested in the Pax why I would buy the LB instead. Naturally it is biased towards the LB, and as someone pointed out early on, I made no attempt to include points that would favour the Pax--in my opinion, it being a subjective list.

I'm a bit taken aback at the number of comments saying this is a great discussion (not taking anything away from what has been posted) because I agonized over posting the list and truth be told, I am against such discussions in general. That's because they tend to degenerate into two phanboi camps at war, which fortunately hasn't happened here. Yet. I am not even sure this thread belongs where it is, since it's not really "Vapor related but not model specific". I've been discussing backstage moving it somewhere else, but where? Anyway, don't be surprised if it moves.

Having said that, I'd like to avoid further discussion along the lines of discussing the threads and the posters themselves. Most forums have a rule against that (no "boards on boards") and shut such discussions down quickly. Our rules are less restrictive (no discussing mod decisions) but I think we're better off not discussing other threads or how other members post. For one thing, it's off topic; for another, it's a nightmare to moderate.

Finally, Darkrom: the closest I've come to a heavy hitter is a few experiments with elbow packing in my Extreme. That was enough to convince me that thick clouds were not for me. I find them hot, harsh, and lacking in taste. It's not a matter of tolerance. I'm not even sure where I fit on the tolerance scale. I can get nicely buzzed on three or four low temperature hits, but I can absorb an awful lot without getting much higher. I hardly ever exhibit signs that would let anyone know I was stoned, even my dear wife has a difficult time recognizing it. I take an annual two month break while I am on Maui (where I am now) but I do not find any noticeable change in tolerance when I resume. Make of that what you will.

 

[willieR]

This thread has convinced me to get the Pax. I have had several LBs and want a bigger hit. Side note, the smell or lack of smell is directly related to heating the herb. Less heat evolves less vapor and therefore less smell.

Less smell = smaller hit

 

[ilovebOObs]

thanks for taking your time to post this pakalolo. i agree that the pax and mflb are too different to really compare fairly. although i don't use my mflb anymore i still can't find myself to getting rid of it since its still holds a special place in my heart. either that or i just have hoarding problems

 

[darkrom]

Pak maybe there could be a "comparisons" section for this purpose? Comparisons are always useful, and there could be rules on what you can/can't do in the section.

I've always thought comparisons can tell you more than a product than statistics in some cases.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

For me it comes down to this:

Wake up at any time in the middle of the night feeling like puking... which one is ready faster? LB or Pax?

I can still feel good from a bit less than one full trench, maybe around 2/3

 

[Slightly Medicated]

I might not be in the same league as you when it comes to perfectionism but the written word (not to mention this awkward language we pinched off the Brits....) is a handicap to clear communication all too often. I'm sure I sweat it too much for some, but I hate the idea of conveying a false impression.
OF

Thanks for noticing that. I actually spend allot of time making sure what I write lives up to my standards. I don't always make it but I try. It actually comes from my learning disabilities. I have to try really hard. When I was a kid I learned to write last in my class. I had spelling issues throughout school. Luckily I have improved tremendously, although it took years of making a concerted effort. There is nothing more frustrating then being eloquent in speaking, but unable to put those words in to writing.

thanks for taking your time to post this pakalolo. i agree that the pax and mflb are too different to really compare fairly. although i don't use my mflb anymore i still can't find myself to getting rid of it since its still holds a special place in my heart. either that or i just have hoarding problems

I feel the same way. I would never sell mine, even if I have not used it in 4-5 months.

I'm a bit taken aback at the number of comments saying this is a great discussion (not taking anything away from what has been posted) because I agonized over posting the list and truth be told, I am against such discussions in general. That's because they tend to degenerate into two phanboi camps at war, which fortunately hasn't happened here. Yet. I am not even sure this thread belongs where it is, since it's not really "Vapor related but not model specific". I've been discussing backstage moving it somewhere else, but where? Anyway, don't be surprised if it moves.

I think these types of treads can be useful, but there needs to be rules. Luckily, everyone here seems to be following them. Comparison threads are useful if they are brought up in a way to discuss the differences... not pick a winner. I also thought about where this thread should be put... I thought maybe ASK FC because you are asking others for comparisons. Otherwise I think the general vaporizer discussion is a good place.

It is hard for me to be a FanBoy... I think if I was a FanBoy I would be a Cloud FanBoy. Mostly because for my needs it matches them better than any other device. I just love using all these devices and finding out their strengths/weakness and how they work. After getting over 10+ vaporizers, I realized they all function close to the same. It is mostly figuring out what form, function, and price you need. What I try and do is make sure that nothing is just junk or a waste of money. I hate the thought of poeple taking advantage of our community to make a quick buck.

For me it comes down to this:

Wake up at any time in the middle of the night feeling like puking... which one is ready faster? LB or Pax?

I can still feel good from a bit less than one full trench, maybe around 2/3

Have you tried an underdog? You could leave it on 24/7 next to your bed. You could even load a stem before bed, so you can wake up and just put the stem in and hit. I know when I feel really sick I moved my Underdog up stairs next to the bed.

 

[Nick Again]

For me it comes down to this:

Wake up at any time in the middle of the night feeling like puking... which one is ready faster? LB or Pax?

I can still feel good from a bit less than one full trench, maybe around 2/3

Have you tried an underdog? You could leave it on 24/7 next to your bed. You could even load a stem before bed, so you can wake up and just put the stem in and hit. I know when I feel really sick I moved my Underdog up stairs next to the bed.

Unfortunately I know this problem well. I leave a PD stem or two full of hash as well as "topping" off a DART each night. Having a Omi cart ready also helps when you need fast relief. For me, the biggest part of the problem has been solved by taking a capsule (#5, about 320mg raw, about 120-200mg of THC) of RSO an hour or two before bedtime - but this isn't an option for everyone and I don't recommend it if you don't need it (doctor's orders for me) or don't have "elephant" tolerance level because most people won't wake up for a LONG time afterwards.

-NDA

 

[Dammit]

All that said, it seems to me both units have a place in the market, but I don't think it's the same place. On one hand we have a frugal 'folksy' unit that has a lot of flexibility but is complex to use. On the other is a unit that is very simple to use, but inflexible WRT use (needing larger full loads to work, having longer warm up time, etc.). The PAX will also work in any position, a shortcoming with LB in that the load can fall out of contact with the trench.

One seems to favor the (IMO more common) low tolerance user. The PAX would seem to favor the heavier users who 'need' a larger dose of THC at one time and don't want to be dealing with multiple trenches and batteries. This 'decision point' (heavy or light dosage) might be a key factor here, perhaps the most important one? It may be putting us into 'camps' in and of itself.

Obviously I'm on team pax, but I just wanted to point something out. The pax is just as good for people with low tolerances and it is for high tolerances. I'm about in the middle somewhere and I usually start at medium and finish on high. High right away is too heavy for me, and low, although tasty, doesn't provide enough vapor to satisfy me, but would be perfect for people with lower tolerances. Also, lately when I'm using my pax at home, I've only been partial oven loads. I find this still provides tasty hits at the beginning, but shortens the time your puffing on it when most of the flavor is gone but is still putting out vapor. Partial ovens still work great, just as long as you pack it tight.

 

[willieR]

Partial ovens still work great, just as long as you pack it tight.

Thanks for that! So it's not an all-or-nothing issue. You can fill smaller hits and be just fine.

 

[kushcabbage]

Wow this thread has grown fast. Good to have some seasoned members in here. Has it been mentioned Pax has got the LB beat on ability to do wax and wet hash? But the LB has the Pax beat on amount of heart warming writing on the device. Pax just says "Designed in San Francisco Assembled in China." My launch box goes on and on in detailed writing telling me how much it loves me.

 

[ShipDit]

As did I, but seriously the PA puts it on a different level.

Even considering what I paid for the box ($120 locally) and then the PA ($60 online), $180 for this thing is great, since you don't remove the ability to switch to batteries in under one second.

There are some real good deals if you're willing to camp Amazon for a bit. Once I decided to buy,it took about a week or so,but I was able to score the current 2012 in-the-tin with all the goodies MFLB for less than $80. With that kinda savings I scooped up a 4 pack of Powerexx 2700's AND a titanium SpaceCase med 2 piece grinder. All this goodness for $119.57 delivered. At that price I was able to splurge on the P.A. That's a pretty good set up for less than 180 clams,especially with the versatility it allows. She'll do all I need while I start that long haul towards a Volcano!