The Extreme-Q Vaporizer

[kellya86]

This is what I thought, but wasn't sure I'd there was things I didn't know about at play...basic physics says you can't have something for nothing...

I suppose if I could heat something hotter than the source I could solve the world's energy problems, and create a perpetual motion machine...

There must be some other way to explain this....

One question I have for you then @OF...

Why is it that I can eventually combust my material at 200 if I keep going, without raising temp, it will gradually get to the same point as if I used 220???

How is this accumulating heat explained????

How does water evaporate from the ocean without the water boiling???

I understand it happens on an atomic level, where things are different..
I need to learn more....

 

[Trypsy Summers]

With the Arizer EQ; I have found that the old boy/girl, needs about 12mins and more closer to 15min in warm up time. In terms of temperature accuracy, I have found it to be decent, (unless its faulty) even the Volcano fluctuates in temps, (the classic even more so than the digit).
But for the best results, I recommend 200C, (sorry folks, I am 'Centigrade' person) and then 230C, for dry herb.
As for concentrates, I've not really tried anything else in it - yet, but with the high temp range of the EQ, I don't think that its gonna be a big issue?

On a another note, I thought I'd try a reverse EQ/EVO hack, i.e. attaching the (EQ) cyclone bowl to the EVO, then attaching my adapter, then the Hydratube. My thinking was a wider vapor passage = bigger bang! So did it work? - Did it fuck! Epic Fail!

Maybe I missed out a simple, but fundamental part, but it didn't work for me, I might go and figure - later...Or better still, just wait for someone to tell me where I fell short!

Keep on vaping

PS: Nevil's Haze, as it can either be in its effect, or, it can be just !

 

[OF]

One question I have for you then @OF...

Why is it that I can eventually combusty material at 200 if I keep going, without raising temp, it will gradually get to the same point as if I used 220???

How is this accumulating heat explained????

How does water evaporate from the ocean without the water boiling???

I understand it happens on am atomic level, where things are different..
I need to learn more....

That's actually more than one question, right?

Again, I don't have/use this vape, nor do I think in metric.... My assumption is you're looking at rates? Perhaps thinking a bit about the water example might help?

You don't have to boil water to evaporate it off, damp clothes dry on the line, right? It depends on something called 'vapor pressure' or rather partial vapor pressures usually. This is part of what drives humidity in the weather. At any given temperature air will hold up to a maximum percentage of water, more with higher temperature. Cool moist air and clouds form and fog happens as the water condenses out (turns back into fine water droplets (liquid again) to obey this law. This gives up heat (it took heat to evaporate it in the first place) which is why rain is warm. It's also why 'wet/dry bulb hydrometers' work. The wet one has water evaporating off so it's cooler than the one next to it reading the air temperature. More evaporation (dryer air) and the temperature difference is bigger. You can read the difference off on a table.

In absolute terms this evaporation pressure is measured in mm of Mercury against the background, IIRC there's about 20mm of pressure from water at room temperatures, less than that total and the air 'sucks it up', more and you have fog. It doesn't matter what the other 740mm of pressure comes from (the usual total being about 760mm, 14.7PSI or 1000 mili Bars (a Bar, the source of "Barometer", being a unit of measure based on 'normal air pressure'). Put a damp cloth in a jar in the sun and water evaporates off only to condense 'everywhere' as it cools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_pressure

It's worth noting that you don't absolutely have to melt before evaporation (ice 'disappears' in the freezer?). The energy of any molecule is within a range, the average is what we call temperature. Those individuals with enough energy really can get out of town and never come back after graduating High School........

Up to boiling some molecules leave, some condense back, just more evaporate than condense.

As the temperature goes up, so does the evaporation and pressure. When it gets hot enough this pressure equals the total around it and it boils. This is why water boils at a cooler temperature in the mountains (where the air pressure is less), it boils 'sooner' so your eggs take longer to cook. Not that detail means much to us making vapor, but it 'ties it all together'. Boiling points depend on the pressure you're working at. The assumption, STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure), is typically 'room temperature' and normal 'sea level'.

Same thing happens in our vapes. As we heat it up the rate things evaporate off goes up. Just like with water, it (evaporation) happens at less than boiling temperatures. And the 'lighter stuff' (generally smaller molecules, but not necessarily strictly so) evaporate off faster since they have higher vapor pressures. They also condense out, either on the cooler walls or the herb mass itself, only to gain heat and try to escape again. Like with drying the clothes outside (or in a dryer for that matter) if you wait long enough (and draw the vapor away) you can 'get it all'.

Aren't you glad you asked?

OF

 

[kellya86]

I am glad I asked, but feel I may be barking up the wrong tree with this...

Sorry for the multiple questions...

I understand pressure, and how it relates to altitude, which brings up another point, would someone vaping on a mountain have a noticeably different experience to someone vaping at sea level????
Providing all other parameters were the same...

Anyway this is not helping me explain this...

I wish I knew how arizer calibrate the eq...
When I set to 200 does the eq set the heater to 250 to allow for heat loss through the parts.???

@scorpioeq has you eq ever been opened for any reason????

I'm keen to get to the bottom of this to ascertain if yours is an isolated incident or if all eq's are running hot...

One more question here....if I left my eq on for 24hrs at 200, would it eventually reach the same temp as if I had run the fan for 15 mins at 200???

I think not, I think the fan pushes the heat up through the glass parts that would otherwise not reach the same temp???

Which is why it seems that the fan makes it hotter than its set at. But it's not, it's just spread the heat further???

Without the fan the heat dissipates more????

Does anyone have any thoughts on this...

 

[OF]

I
I understand pressure, and how it relates to altitude, which brings up another point, would someone vaping on a mountain have a noticeably different experience to someone vaping at sea level????
Providing all other parameters were the same...

I seriously doubt it. The vapor pressure of THC at vaping temperatures is a tiny fraction of the atmospheric pressure change (unlike the boiling water case where they are basically the same).

Again, I'm sorry I have no specific thoughts WRT the Q to offer, but when the fan is on (blowing heated air away) the heater temperature control has to compensate with more power to replace it. This automatically means more stray losses?

FWIW I suspect however it's done the temperature relates to the load temperature, what really counts. Perhaps a Thermocouple probe in the load like this one in a Solo/Air stem which measures actual load temperature:

Or this one measuring the temperature of the 'doughnut' in the Devine Tribe base:

A couple years back I did the same think with Ascent showing conduction 'soaks' heat into the load but cold air from the hit rapidly robs it (like up to 100F drop......).

OF

 

[scorpioeq]

This is worrying me a little...

When I wand pack at 200 I feel like im pretty close to that temp...

I know when I load the adapter that conduction takes over a little and temps do rise. So I account for this and drop to 185...

I suppose you have to use some common sense and use the temp display as a scale more than a specific setting.

This is getting into thermodynamics now...
Specifically heat transfer...

With prolonged exposure to a heat source, I suppose the conductive part can exceed the temperature of the source...

I think that fan is confusing your study...

It's not a real world test.

Also the sensor touching the mesh will confuse your study too, your sensor will conduct differently to organic matter...

And again it's accumulation of heat...

Anyone got any views on this...

@OF i know you don't frequent this thread. But you know your thermodynamics??? I think...

Hey, Thanks for sharing my concern on the issue and trying to figure this out.

A few developments.

I have changed a few parameters of the study including changing the bowl type and adding ABV; but still consistently getting thermometer readings in the 350F-360s
with the temp set at 325F (F1 fan).
If the bowl is left to "warm up" for a few minutes and then the fan is turned on, the vape temp can jump close to 380 or so. The tests are as realistic as I can make them, but let me know if you have any suggestions to improve.

I'm using the stock Cycle bowl and DD short adapter for tests. Cyclone bowl seems to keep the temp of the bowl to about 355F or so when the unit is set to 325F. More testing though needs to be done to see how much of a difference the bowl type makes as this is a factor too.

As for Arizer, I had a long and detailed exchange with them yesterday and basically they said I should forget what my thermometer says and "trust" what is set on the device as they are confident from their quality control tests that the vape temp is what is set on the unit. Hard to believe this based on my measurements.

 

[kellya86]

I know it's hard to have blind faith when the evidence is suggesting otherwise...

But what does your avb say???

This will be a good indicator of what temps are really happening, if it was out as much as you say, wouldn't you think you would notice???

No disrespect, but I hope you are wrong somehow, I have faith in my eq, I don't want to think that I may have been inhaling benzene, and other compounds iv been trying to avoid...

@OF thanks for you input, I think I need to do my own testing as you suggest, with multiple thermocouples...
Or see if i can get hold of an infared camera, that's an idea...

 

[scorpioeq]

I know it's hard to have blind faith when the evidence is suggesting otherwise...

But what does your avb say???

This will be a good indicator of what temps are really happening, if it was out as much as you say, wouldn't you think you would notice???

No disrespect, but I hope you are wrong somehow, I have faith in my eq, I don't want to think that I may have been inhaling benzene, and other compounds iv been trying to avoid...

@OF thanks for you input, I think I need to do my own testing as you suggest, with multiple thermocouples...
Or see if i can get hold of an infared camera, that's an idea...

Hi, I ran the test with the probe sensor directly in the ABV and those are the results I was getting. It makes sense to me that the temperature was running hot because when the unit was set to 350-365, by the second bag it already started to taste slightly foul with thicker "smokier" vapor. The third bag usually I couldn't even finish because it was much more smokey, foul tasting and coughier.

My thermometer is a cheaper K-type thermocouple, but even if it has some error compared to a more expensive one, I assume it should be off by only a few degrees.

 

[Kalessin]

It sounds like to me your unit is malfunctioning...I use mine all the time at 420F and it never gets close to smoke.

 

[scorpioeq]

It sounds like to me your unit is malfunctioning...I use mine all the time at 420F and it never gets close to smoke.

Yeah, I believe it might be but, Arizer said it was working normally :/ Do you use the whip or balloon?

 

[Kalessin]

How high can you go before it combusts?

 

[scorpioeq]

How high can you go before it combusts?

lol, theoretically around 450F. I've never tried, and don't think I will (but the vapor is still more and more smoke-like with the higher herbs temps)

Just wondering if you use bag or whip, cause that makes a difference too. Leaving the bowl to sit and fully "warm up" with herb with and the fan off, the bowl temp is about 90F less than what it shows on the unit. Once you take a draw, the bowl temp goes way up (above what is set on the unit), until you release, then goes back down. So your herb is exposed to the higher temps mostly only during your draws.

 

[Kalessin]

I normally use the whip, but I have blown plenty of bags before at 410 and 420F without any trouble. My abv from bag blowing isn't significantly different from when just using the whip. perhaps a TAD darker, but certainly not a 20 degree difference.

 

[scorpioeq]

I also have this strange issue with the remote. When I press "+" or "-" to adjust the temperature by one degree, the unit automatically switches +/-20F different, rather than +/1F different like I intended. The problem usually corrects itself after this (but I still have to manually seek to the set the temp right again).

Also, sometimes when pressing a fan speed button, it changes the temperature instead.

 

[Kalessin]

Yeaaah. Definitely sounds like it's malfunctioning somehow or another. At least it still works somewhat, I suppose.

 

[kellya86]

The temp jump and fan button thing are just slight glitches that are apparently common on all eq's...although my latest model(all glass mini whip) doesn't seem to do it...

So it's not a sign that your eq is buggered...

 

[Stevenski]

Maybe it is my rather casual attitude but I only care about getting good extraction from my herb. The temperature that occurs at is irrelevant as it is alleged temperature I am vaping at. The only thing of relevance is getting mellow & becoming one with the couch groove.

I pulled all my EQ parts out after a week of soaking & everything is spotless & carefully put away in the biscuit tins I use to keep my EQ bits in. One has the DDave items & the other has the OEM & fake Dave adapter. I had a good close look at the two 18mm DDave shorty adapters & my fake Dave one. The DDave items are slightly taller & are thicker glass.

Sorry to hear about your gremlins @scorpioeq but the EQ is a mighty fine vape with plenty to offer the crafty consumer.

 

[kellya86]

I agree, I thought the temp display was only ever a rough guide and not to be taken as gospel...
As long as your getting vapour and your avb looks ok, then surely all is good...

Use the vape force and feel it, rather than going by numbers, this is what alot of other vapes do anyway...

I'm pretty sure I'm vaping at the right temps....

 

[CuckFumbustion]

I also have this strange issue with the remote. When I press "+" or "-" to adjust the temperature by one degree, the unit automatically switches +/-20F different, rather than +/1F different like I intended. The problem usually corrects itself after this (but I still have to manually seek to the set the temp right again).
Also, sometimes when pressing a fan speed button, it changes the temperature instead.

If I press mine less deliberately it behaves a little off. Or maybe you need a fresher battery?

I agree, I thought the temp display was only ever a rough guide and not to be taken as gospel...
As long as your getting vapour and your avb looks ok, then surely all is good...

I think under controlled conditions it can be fairly accurate. But for a moment the thread of that particular conversation had me wondering if the EQ has some sort of cooldown mode. I'm not disputing the laws of thermodynamics, but materials do get dryer in heat over time and can become thinner. So a fleck of that will be enough to cause combustion. I never have combusted at 200C even when the elbow screen is sitting on the heater. (by accident) Anything higher is suspect of combustion with my short bowl. So there is a constant it appears to be keeping. The ABV is more indicitive of the pack then any type of temp fluctuation. Seems dialed-in to me with my setup. But I'm also part of the plugged in 24/7 EQ fan club. Bowl is always on when I'm home.

Will re-read the thread and pick up this subject again. Thanks all around. Some great info, pics and thought out questions!

Any insight as to how and how often the EQ reads from it's own sensors would be helpful. I do want to know where the EQ's are physically placed. Awesome discussion.
I do watch the heat light and how often it pulses as another indication of what is happening. Perhaps it is telling me how often it keeps a constant heat going? but IDK.

You don't have to boil water to evaporate it off, damp clothes dry on the line, right? It depends on something called 'vapor pressure' or rather partial vapor pressures usually. This is part of what drives humidity in the weather. At any given temperature air will hold up to a maximum percentage of water, more with higher temperature. Cool moist air and clouds form and fog happens as the water condenses out (turns back into fine water droplets (liquid again) to obey this law. This gives up heat (it took heat to evaporate it in the first place) which is why rain is warm. It's also why 'wet/dry bulb hydrometers' work. The wet one has water evaporating off so it's cooler than the one next to it reading the air temperature. More evaporation (dryer air) and the temperature difference is bigger. You can read the difference off on a table.

Wickable fabrics and clothes exploit this by allowing water to pass through the fiber. Thanks for joining in @OF!

I do think about this happening on a much smaller scale between the surface area of the plant and the open air. Why I put so much emphasis on the amount of warm inside volume and the chimney effect.
When I was a noob with the cyclone, it felt like I was pulling moisture off the plant as opposed to a proper extraction. Or say like a poor hit of a weak portable.

 

[kellya86]

Thanks for joining in @CuckFumbustion , I was wondering where you had got too, and what your view were on this...

I think infared camera is the way to go, this would show accurate data in real time...

 

[CuckFumbustion]

@kellya86 I started this thread with IR repeaters and ended with temp reading setups. whew! Infrared cameras would show you things like the hot spots etc. Great for getting to know portables, where conduction is more critical. Remember looking at images of a heated up PAX under an IR camera and found that informative alone.

I was thinking about the accuracy of hand held temp readers because I could use that for other things. Maybe take three readings. The heater cover. The glass female connection and the inside of the bowl. Then there are several ways to calibrate things from there. Like say how much heat is retained in the bowl.

Even tried to use a biotherm when I thought my EQ was acting up to figure things out for myself.

 

[OF]

Wickable fabrics and clothes exploit this by allowing water to pass through the fiber. Thanks for joining in @OF!

You're welcome, glad to help if I can. But I don't really belong here so I'll probably wonder off and leave you good people in peace.

FWIW the key factor in 'Wickable Fabrics' isn't really evaporation (most fabrics do to some extent, including metal ones) but "wetting" or the atomic level interaction between the liquid water and the material:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetting

This is what 'draws the water up' and away from your skin. What makes modern materials superior to say cotton or wool in this respect?

Best wishes to all.

OF

 

[Dr. Soxhlet]

You're welcome, glad to help if I can. But I don't really belong here so I'll probably wonder off and leave you good people in peace.



OF

With 15,000 + posts and your grasp of many technical subjects, I would say your insight is welcome anywhere on this forum. Thanks for all the info.

 

[OF]

With 15,000 + posts and your grasp of many technical subjects, I would say your insight is welcome anywhere on this forum. Thanks for all the info.

You're very welcome, of course, glad to help when I can. But I'm not a Q owner, nor for that matter a serious user of any desktop vapes (except my HA2 which sees little use really) and think it's best to stick with stuff I know well enough to have something to offer general discussions. I generally confine my posts to a fraction of the portables, the ones I know personally.

Thank you for the kind words, very nice to be recommended by your peers you know.

OF

 

[CuckFumbustion]

You're very welcome, of course, glad to help when I can. But I'm not a Q owner, nor for that matter a serious user of any desktop vapes (except my HA2 which sees little use really) and think it's best to stick with stuff I know well enough to have something to offer general discussions. I generally confine my posts to a fraction of the portables, the ones I know personally.

Thank you for the kind words, very nice to be recommended by your peers you know.

OF

@OF The EQ is the PC of vapes. If you know of any other vapes with this much geek-ability, please share that with us. Otherwise it might suit you. It certainly caused me to branch into the other areas of study. If you never get an EQ, there is enough other info that passes thru here because of the EQ's flexibility. Hopefully enough content for you to at least lurk here. I plan on re-reading and delving deeper into the subjects and points you made and @kellya86's questions.

At some point, I will look at the PCB and get to know the electronic 'brain' that sorts out the temp control, fan speed, etc. IR communications being another area.