Discontinued herbalAire

[Egzoset]

Salutations,

I can't stand taking dry hits. I cough so hard and it makes my throat tingle like crazy.

I can relate to that. Have you considered mist filtration? I'm not aware of other vaporists who gave it a try but i'm confident there really is something to dig in there as well. Just be extra-cautious with these little Mist Maker clones coming from China as i can tell they may leak in case of a malfunction sometimes...

Here's something with lots of graphical illustrations to make our minds wander:

Anesthesia Equipment and Physics made easy and explained !​

...in case that could be the begining of a clue about how mist filtration works...

 

[ugobo]

Salutations,



I can relate to that. Have you considered mist filtration? I'm not aware of other vaporists who gave it a try but i'm confident there really is something to dig in there as well. Just be extra-cautious with these little Mist Maker clones coming from China as i can tell they may leak in case of a malfunction sometimes...

Here's something with lots of graphical illustrations to make our minds wander:

Anesthesia Equipment and Physics made easy and explained !​

...in case that could be the begining of a clue about how mist filtration works...

Thank you very much for the link Egzoset! Looks like an essential read.

Never heard of mist filtration. I'm intrigued!

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations Ugobo,

I'm certainly very pleased if you are! And i'll use the present opportunity to congratulate you for choosing an HerbalAire!!



Here's a thread i initiated on the subject of mist vapor conditioning:

​

​

Mist Maker generated Fog in 3-way convertible Water Toy​

You'll notice a few bold statements in there but that was a result of my pressing desire to share the good news i guess. Most unfortunately it's quite obvious i failed miserably at my mission since it took place a year ago already. Time flies!



You know, i'm intrigued as well: i still can't say what's actually going on inside such a bottle, i must point out! So... Perhaps there's just too much unknown variables about it.

In any case, for all practical purposes my testimony would be to the effect that the inhalation mode illustrated on the left side makes it possible for me to avoid some unpleasant inconvenients which i experience invariably when using the other method pictured by the right one. In fact, i'm not fully satisfied even while water filtering, in comparison...

That's all i can tell. It was a crazy idea which turned nicely, as a bonus the Mist Maker is garanteed to be an eye catcher, because of the hypnotic light & sound show created inside that bottle!!



Just for that entertaining moment alone i'd recommend you go for it at least once during your vaporist lifetime, provided that you take no risks with safety - e.g.: seal that thing with a generous amount of hot glue covered with a sturdy sheet of plastic (while still soft), itself sealed with more layers, etc. Lets not worry too much about fashion looks, in my experience the puck will be short lived anyway (because the restricted space puts some unusual stressing load on it i'd think). Yet i found this was a memorable experiment to make, so... I'll argue i never had any regrets spending a few bills on it as that's worth every penny IMHO! But that's me.

So far i've come to the theory that water molecules present in the cold fog are attracted by dusty particles, it's not clear though which sort of filtering action really occurs: do water-coated particles fall at the bottom (because of gravity) and remain trapped inside or do they reach the lungs but cause no irritation as a result of their humidified surface?... I'm confident if i wait long enough a day will come when somebody will figure it all out.

 

[OO]

So far i've come to the theory that water molecules present in the cold fog are attracted by dusty particles, it's not clear though which sort of filtering action really occurs: do water-coated particles fall at the bottom (because of gravity) and remain trapped inside or do they reach the lungs but cause no irritation as a result of their humidified surface?... I'm confident if i wait long enough a day will come when somebody will figure it all out.

you are correct somewhat. every breath you take is full of small dust particles, that's why your lungs are coated with a layer of mucus. we call them condensation nuclei. the fog is just water droplets forming on the dust particles.

either way, you're breathing dust, whether or not there is water on them makes no difference, as your lungs should be prepared.

less irritation comes in the form of cooler vapor, because water is so effective at absorbing heat, it's high surface area (in droplet form) makes it most effective at removing heat from the vapor. not only this, but it is drastically increasing the humidity of the mixture you are inhaling, which will lessen the damage that most habitual vaporists experience.

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations OO,

Thanks for offering this alternate perspective!

...either way, you're breathing dust...

Oh, i see. Then that must be why vaporists with irritable lungs should always prefer using some form of filtering where heat is taken away. Since the noble psycho-active molecules are being delivered as dust then i suppose it might be interresting to attempt to collect them using an electrostatic field, euh... Oh my! Wouldn't that be a new innovative way to obtain rich purified extracts?!!

...water is so effective at absorbing heat...

Indeed. I was under the impression that if there was dust then it was absorbing lung moisture, hence causing irritating dryness which the fog would be preventing. As you point out though the resulting fog-filtered cannabic vapor certainly gets most of its heat removed when compared to the raw counter-part.

Any idea why mist-conditioned vapor feels like it doesn't affect flavour as much as when using a conventional water toy?

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I see no point in using tape or tubes. Just the Gong adapter is a nearly an all glass path and hits absurdly. Don't waste your time making it hit just the same but potentially more toxic..

Anyway, PlanetVape is working on a GONG made to fit tight in the herbalaire. Sit tight...

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations,

I see no point in using tape or tubes.

I differ of opinion. If teflon as a sealant is potentially toxic then what should we think of teflon holding the oven (it's in direct contact with burning-hot metal)?!!

And lets not forget that's not the only spot with teflon, by the way: there's a second piece forming the inlet bridge and a third one sealing the heat exchanger at its base (inside). Since the heating element is located in the upper side of the metal block though (past the thermal protector for the most part), the oven's access opening would be where heat is more intense i believe. That's the exact location where glass comes to play in my own case, to bypass this section completely by linking my crucible to the outside world via a tight-fit Arizer Solo glass stem. The inlet bridge could be replaced with an hybrid one made of teflon & ceramic but this would void the waranty and requires sure hands to implement such a "mod"... Too bad, we can't do a thing about it anyway.

So... In conclusion my glass pieces only cost 7 $ for a set of two as i recall, it was a real bargain but i can't wait to know how much for a GonG 3rd-party glass option! You can bet i'll wait patiently for detailed information on this!...

Well i guess i'll have to stick with that in the meantime:

Euh... But with teflon tape added to seal the top junction, that is...



I truly hope the future GonG add-on will address any flaws you can see above! I thank you for sharing that information with us HerbalAire owners, i'll admit i've been dreaming of it for quite a while.

Now, on the matter of dreams...


HappyVappy Vari

I'd also wish to have the same convenient user interface, then my dreams would finally come true!!

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

First time i've seem the insides of a Herbalaire! Cool, thanks! Yeah I figured there was still some teflon - just trying to minimize it. Great ideas.

 

[OO]

Salutations OO,

Thanks for offering this alternate perspective!



Oh, i see. Then that must be why vaporists with irritable lungs should always prefer using some form of filtering where heat is taken away. Since the noble psycho-active molecules are being delivered as dust then i suppose it might be interresting to attempt to collect them using an electrostatic field, euh... Oh my! Wouldn't that be a new innovative way to obtain rich purified extracts?!!





Indeed. I was under the impression that if there was dust then it was absorbing lung moisture, hence causing irritating dryness which the fog would be preventing. As you point out though the resulting fog-filtered cannabic vapor certainly gets most of its heat removed when compared to the raw counter-part.

Any idea why mist-conditioned vapor feels like it doesn't affect flavour as much as when using a conventional water toy?

well there's a couple things i would like to clarify.

yes, "water filtration" is less painful in the sense that some heat is removed. the psychoactive compounds are in a mix of vapor state, and droplets that have condensed on dust particles. I don't have high hopes for an extraction process utilizing an electrostatic field because the molecules are very "greasy" meaning non-polar. They would likely not respond to such a field. an easy idea though would be to make an aluminum mesh with high surface area, and have the vapor pass through it, it would leave the oil condensed on the metal, which could then be removed mechanically or more likely with a solvent.

the dust isn't what's removing the moisture from the lungs if i understand it correctly. from my understanding, heating air lowers its relative humidity to a very small percent (by increasing saturation specific humidity, RH=specific humidity/ssh), and as the hot air attempts to reach equilibrium in your lungs, it absorbs moisture from them. not only does the fog remove heat, but it also increases the specific humidity of the hot air. ever driven a car with the heater on? it dries out your hands and the mucous in your nose the same way, leading to some gnarly boogers.

I think that when using a standard "water toy" you're leaving much of the psychoactive oil in the vapor solution, and when using the fog, you're probably removing most of it. terpenes, the molecules responsible for smell and flavor are still in the vapor mixture because they boil at a lower temperature than the psychoactive compounds and therefore do not get condensed out at the temperature your tool lowers the air mixture to. this is working under the assumption that the psychoactive compounds have a flavor that overpowers the flavor of the terpenes, and it's all just guesses.

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations OO,

...there's a couple things i would like to clarify.

I appreciate having the explanations provided in this reply and will try to put order in my own preconceptions while enjoying the coming full moon in my veranda... One detail doesn't fit though: my bags never felt hot, not even warm. Yet, i still experience annoying irritation even while inhalating through water using such bags, actually! As a result i suppose there must be more to it than meets the eye - or the lungs...



The flavour preservation feature is another aspect i can't figure out clearly, mainly because i expected the taste would be "diluted" in H2O, similarily to a soft drink i would think: more water should mask it, on the contrary, but that's definitely not what i've observed with fog conditioning!

More reflexion seems required so i'll have to let it stirr for a while before i can gather some light - under a bright moon!...

 

[OO]

it's logical to me that your bags would not feel hot. plastics are very good insulators, which is why they are ideal for a vapor path, so less vapor condenses onto them vs ceramics, glass, or especially metals.

which is why the vapor does not chill too much in the bags. personally i find bags extremely harsh, they dry you out.

as for the flavor preservation, you should change how you're thinking about it.
in an aqueous (water based) solution, the more water you add, the lower the concentration of the flavor molecules. and therefore the milder the taste.

in the vapor solution, things are somewhat different. your concentration of flavor molecules is temperature dependent. the lower the temperature, the less molecules can remain in the vapor state. luckily, terpenes (flavor molecules you're concerned with) boil at relatively low temperatures, and therefore also have to reach relatively low temperatures in order for the molecules to feel attraction towards each other, and leave the vapor state. the psychoactive compounds you're concerned with boil at much higher temperatures, and therefore condense out at higher temperatures. but they also affect taste, in what many would consider a negative way. they somewhat overpower the terpenes in many instances.

but your fog maker cools the air mixture, I.E. the vapor solution to temperatures below the boiling point of the stronger flavored psychoactive compounds, but above the boiling point of the terpenes.

did that clarify it for you?

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations OO,

...did that clarify it for you?

Well, i'm still unsure as i'd expect at least some of the heat to be transfered to that bag surface after a while - unless there's little left because it was already removed through gas expansion. Perhaps i need to experiment just a little bit further in hope to bring order into cahos, under the moon...

Too bad i don't have access to an infrared camera as this might clear the matter, i wonder! So, i still sort of hesitate but this could be a result of the language barrier (since i'm a french-speaking individual, actually). Please give me some time to think this over, i'll most definitely need to re-read the whole explanation later!

 

[OF]

First time i've seem the insides of a Herbalaire! Cool, thanks! Yeah I figured there was still some teflon - just trying to minimize it. Great ideas.

I'm not sure that's really necessary. PTFE is generally considered good to 260C (500F) full time, 300C for a short while. It melts at 375 or so IIRC. Normally it'd be considered appropriate to the usage here I think.

It's excellent high temperature performance is one of the reasons the Military is so keen on it for wire insulation. It stands up well to 700F soldering irons even.

OF

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I agree 100 percent that all scientific evidence currently provided states clearly that teflon is safe at those temperatures. However, I trust Dupont about as much as Monsanto or HG farbin for that matter. These manufactureres are bordering on psychopathic in their business ethics. So although I lean toward thinking its fairly safe, I have a distinct lack of trust in scientific evidence submitted or supported by some specific large corperations. Little things like dumping sodium floride in our water supply have aided in this lack of trust.

I might also point out that teflon is being replaced as a nonstick due to health concerns - those pans cant handle an accidental overheating or scratching without becoming toxic. Fortunately the herbalaire seems to be the best vape when it comes to maintaining a non-burning temperature so that is a great thing.

 

[OF]

I agree 100 percent that all scientific evidence currently provided states clearly that teflon is safe at those temperatures. However, I trust Dupont about as much as Monsanto or HG farbin for that matter. These manufactureres are bordering on psychopathic in their business ethics.

Your prejudices aside, the scientific fact is it's safe at those temperatures by peer reviewed testing against established safety standards. Third party stuff. I feel plenty safe and think others should too. There are questionable materials used at these temperatures, but PTFE is not amongst them.

OF

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Likewise here I am puffing on mine. I appreciate your knowledge.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

peer reviewed testing against established safety standards

do you really mean there are "established safety standards" for vaporizers?

 

[CentiZen]

Perhaps not in vaporizers but there is certainly alot of peer reviewed work on PTFE and teflon in other applications like plumbing and cooking.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

imho inhaling through something heated to (near) 380°F changes everything.

 

[nicelytoasted]

The PTFE is used on the outside of the aluminum sleeve of the heater core at the top, and the mouthpiece itself, which attaches at that point. These are the only places where it gets close to being hot, but far enough away from the core to reach near the temperature of the core itself. I've ran an HA for over 4.5 years and see no thermal degradation at, or near these points, at all.

 

[OO]

Your prejudices aside, the scientific fact is it's safe at those temperatures by peer reviewed testing against established safety standards. Third party stuff. I feel plenty safe and think others should too. There are questionable materials used at these temperatures, but PTFE is not amongst them.

OF

as much as i think fears of teflon are overstated, i think you should reconsider this word usage.
"scientific fact" is contradictory, anyone who understands the definitions of science understands this, please refrain from making such outcries.

science is the idea of narrowing down possibilities, not establishing facts.

 

[OF]

as much as i think fears of teflon are overstated, i think you should reconsider this word usage.
"scientific fact" is contradictory, anyone who understands the definitions of science understands this, please refrain from making such outcries.

science is the idea of narrowing down possibilities, not establishing facts.

Sorry, I very strongly disagree. Science is based on experimental data, collected objectively, to confirm a theory.....and peer reviewed. The engineering properties of PTFE as a material fits this definition IMO. It's been 'tested to death', complete with factions that would love to prove their competitor's product didn't perform as advertised.

OF

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations everyone,

Lets not forget that the average user has no means to tell without a doubt that any synthetic substance(s) used in their favourite vaporizer actually happens to be teflon, PTFE, aluminium, etc. Imagine one's hesitations about melting temperatures!... I suspect in the end that facts won't matter much in the eye of a potential customer who has no faith in some numbers made public. It really doesn't require a lot of fears to turn down great ideas. So, i like seeing glass "mods" being put on display, for the added benefit of our health-concerned readers who may feel as if they've been shown "facts" as viewed from 1 perspective only.

My personnal opinion is that the HerbalAire should benefit from a treatment equivalent to that of other brands/products relying on synthetics as well. Some people become less critical and/or more flexible in the name of portability, whatever. My point is, if HerbalAire was confident enough to design their concept(s) around some synthetic substance(s), within operational parameters, then i find it's a good idea to inform possibly-future HA owners that they can extend the HA safety margins through the adoption of a glass ustensile. If we can have trust in some designer trade-offs made in order to render vaporization accessible everywhere then we should feel as much confidence about an HerbalAire!



I'm no hockey fan but i'm pretty sure nobody ever wanted to play with a stick which has no tape on it. The main white teflon mouthpiece (read "PTFE" if you must) is like a hockey stick with no tape option: you get the standard basics from your favourite trusted provider and the rest is on you... Well, i'll admit in any case that mine sort of feels better with tape - plumber teflon tape with glass where it counts, that is!...

 

[OO]

Sorry, I very strongly disagree. Science is based on experimental data, collected objectively, to confirm a theory.....and peer reviewed. The engineering properties of PTFE as a material fits this definition IMO. It's been 'tested to death', complete with factions that would love to prove their competitor's product didn't perform as advertised.

OF

please read some debates on aetheist vs. religion, and you will quickly realize that things that you can assume to be proven as "fact" with science, are really just limiting doubt.

 

[OF]

please read some debates on aetheist vs. religion, and you will quickly realize that things that you can assume to be proven as "fact" with science, are really just limiting doubt.

No, thanks. I worked in "Big Science" for 20 years, and around the pioneers of accelerators before that. Amongst other sins. I'm pretty set in my views of science and research (both pure and applied).

In the case at hand, I've done a lot of vacuum work, much of it UHV (Ultra High Vacuum) where contamination at unbelievably low levels is a serious issue. Often at levels too low to measure directly. To get there you 'bake' such systems. Wrap it it heater tape and aluminum foil and lots of thermocouples and run the temperature up to force contamination (like say part of a stray finger print or a bit of dust or dander that settled in when open) to evaporate off faster. This is with 'full pumping' of course. Much like vaping THC in some ways. Typical high temps are 150C, sometimes up to 200 even. This includes PTFE parts. I know from long experience and superbly accurate instrumentation "nothing" is coming off the 'plastic' parts. Nothing with a vacuum profile. This is a known. Yes, it's pretty 'state of the art' but it's used every day in this sort of application. PTFE at those temperatures is not a (chemical) issue. It's inert for practical purposes, as glass would be. Or some metals. Yes, some metals won't work at this level, but PTFE does. I'm really pretty sure.

Folks are welcome to think what they want, within limits they can say what they wish as well I guess. Like science or think it's a sham, your call. Trust 'big business' because you trust the system, or be confident that everyone is a lying crook. And those that pretend to be in competition are secretly fixing prices behind your back. Your business. But when guys make statements like PTFE isn't safe I get to question that and give my reasons for doing so too, right? Those reasons will be based on experiments anyone can run should they care to as far as I can.

Thanks anyway, I'll stick with my illusion of science. Some will cling to religion too I guess.

OF