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Grasshopper / Zenpen Concerns and Considerations

Discussion in 'The Vapor Lounge' started by vtac, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD 宇宙

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    @THC SCIENTIFIC my point re: that was more or less the fact that everyone, even reputable manufacturers, get questioned over everything. I'm with you about waiting and seeing.
     
  2. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    Totally understood, grok, and I respect it.

    My whole purpose (well, not my whole purpose .....:ninja:) for being here is to help provide others who may be on the fence of getting in on this promotion, be it the buy-in or the actual product, that they have an alternate point of view as opposed to GH's marketing (both the good and the bad). Armed with both, I think they can make a wiser purchasing decision even if the product is REALLY good, bad or somewhere in-between, eh?

    But I totally agree with Scientific's last paragraph. ;)
     
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  3. sadf

    sadf Well-Known Member

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    There is no protection post-funding, you buy in at your own risk.

    If the product never ships or is trash, too bad, better luck next time.
     
  4. norealmonsters

    norealmonsters Well-Known Member

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    From the TOS

    So yeah, if they should fail to get you anything at all the only real recourse would be a personal lawsuit. Indiegogo isn't going to be getting involved.
     
  5. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    Yeeesh............ :disgust:.

    Here's hoping it never comes to that.
     
  6. stickstones

    stickstones Wasted Staff Member

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    I thought again, and I disagree. I can think of maybe three manufacturers we busted for shilling here and they aren't here anymore, and not surprisingly, none of them fessed up. The vast majority are straight up folks making their way on the merits of their vapes alone. I think your statement that they all do it is insulting to all the manufacturers here who are doing a top notch job. We mods consider it the cardinal sin of this forum to have multiple accounts and shill your product. Please pm me with any proof you have of this going on so we can stomp it out with a vengeance.

    as lwien said, this IS the thread to talk about GH's marketing tactics. vtac made this a separate thread to give you a place to go read about this vape without this cluttering up the thread. You may go to the other thread to avoid this conversation and talk about the vape itself. Your continued posts mocking those interested in this conversation would be considered trolling if you continue it.
     
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  7. poonman

    poonman Well-Known Member

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    @THC SCIENTIFIC
    I love your products and I love your vids .
    It is the reason I purchased your Omi-Lite and soon KISS carts .
    It is quite the effective marketing tool you've grasped onto .
    I'm serious when I ask this ,
    Maybe you can advise/assist a fellow entrepreneur in making a
    Good vid G ?

    @Zenpen
    video ?
    Please .

    @lwien
    I'm with you on this , as a fellow member of FC .
    I feel obligated in helping others FOR ALL the help
    I've received in this great community . I don't agree that we shall wait until Feb . That date IS NOT written in stone and with new launches , they usually get delayed . ( more $$ invested )

    @vtac
    Thank you for posting the info to allow us to make an informed decision . And thank you for creating this GREAT forum .
    I will put my faith in you , whom , have not asked/received
    a single penny from me , but have saved me many $$$ in
    Bad Investment .
     
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  8. Madcap79

    Madcap79 Jack of all trades, master of none.

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    There are a couple videos on their website. One shows a person loading, vaping, and unloading the GH. They may want to use better lighting in the next video though. Just my :2c:. Could be a cool vape if it works as advertised and not what I see in the video.
     
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  9. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    I for one hope they don't make any more videos. If I was grasshopper even if I had plans to release another video I would reconsider, considering the rudeness they have received in this and their other thread. Unsubstantiated allegations, that have been satisfactorily answered and never proven, need apologizing for.

    But instead we have this insane continued demand for more videos. Insane because no matter what they release it will be endlessly criticized and ultimately unsatisfying, because that is the nature of this forum.

    Grasshopper has reached their funding goal, and has already shattered the evo crowd-sourcing records in the process with plenty of time left. What more could they possibly have to gain by trying to please a small and ultimately insignificant minority of naysayers that will never be fully satisfied anyways?

    The allegations aren't even of shilling in this forum, so this "issue" should have stayed at reddit imo.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  10. Madcap79

    Madcap79 Jack of all trades, master of none.

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    I couldn't care less either way. I just wanted to let the people asking for videos to know they exist. That is all.
     
  11. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    See below:

     
  12. KidFated.

    KidFated. Watch your pawking metaws.

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    They did a good job raising their money. Noone can deny that. But what they aren't doing, is putting their customers at ease. They're simply making their customers wonder and wonder and wonder what tha hell theyre going to get. I DID NOT CONTRIBUTE but i surely would have if i knew i wasnt going to be wasting money, but hey, i could be missing out on a great new vaporizer at an extremely low price, maybe i will have to buy one after they are released and price increases tenfold. But that's my choice. And its also my choice to find out and study This vaporizer until i can make a fully informed decision whether or not to put my hard earned money on the line. I will not shell out money, on a pure gamble.
     
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  13. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    Missed that part, but as I said it has been satisfactorily answered.

    It' a good way to chase off @SpaceCow though.

    I think they both deserve an apology!

    :myday:
     
  14. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    Not to me, gorkit. It kind of had the feel of "my dog at my homework", kind of answer. I guess if this was the only incidence of this happening, I may buy it, but the same thing has happened at multiple sites.
     
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  15. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    Dog ate my homework is an automatic fallacy because there is no chain of evidence, unlike a family member posting from the same IP. I understand that some of you are this jaded, and that your faith has previously been shattered by other fly by night manufacturers. But is that reason enough to jump from due diligence to a witch hunt with these guys? It might be time to get off their case and let them make a product. If it works out you will be able to purchase it later for additional cost with the rest of the unwashed masses.

    Q: How many other indiegogo product categories receive this kind of scrutiny? A: None.

    edit:
    [​IMG]
    :spliff:
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  16. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

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    Grokit - you know I always respect your astute comments and the productive directions you take us in. But, in this instance I cannot disagree with you more. From $$$ contributors and non-contributors alike, the multitude of questions and stated expectations (Zenpen has characterized these as "demands") regarding representation made of the product and videos have been fair IMO, and require no apology. For the very sensitive, perhaps a more delicate demeanor might've framed questions and statements differently, but we all have our own personal styles of expression, and angles from which our concerns stem. Please grant us the latitude that we have earned through many trial & error experiences with vapes in particular and in life and business in general.

    THC SCIENTIFIC, Stonemonkey, Ed's stems, etc., to name a few, have demonstrated in spades over time on FC that they have the tenacity, integrity, receptiveness, and humility to justify our faith in them. I don't recall any answer they've given to a question or request that was met with righteous indignation. They're attitude throughout has been sterling IMO. Newcomers to this nascent industry would do well to glean from their examples.

    I must say, again here, that ZP/GH responses did not altogether ring true with me (e.g., desktop performance claim was later back-peddled IMO, or vid demo based on individual lung capacity and retention of vapor, etc.). I think it woul've been better for me if they made no claim at all or simply said "I don't know, will try to do it better", or some such. I do realize that these are Young Guns learning as they go, and a certain degree of tolerance should be afforded them along the way to success, or failure. There is no shame in failure, and that will be forgiven too if comes to pass. At this point I could care less if they put out an award winning vid or non at all. I just hope the end result of all their claimed monumental time & efforts pan out for them and their followers. Best of success, GP. Live long and prosper!
    I believe it was ZP/GH who knocked on our door and chose to enter. One must know his/her host and audience. As has been said here many times before, "it goes with the territory".
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  17. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    I understand that we either have faith in this product or we don't...
    ...and that it's really no big deal either way.

    The reason they are seen as backpedaling on the desktop claim is that they only had a single desktop vape to compare to, and as has been pointed out "desktop vapes" is a very wide product category. Just because the grasshopper hits as good as an Eq or whatever it's called doesn't mean it will perform on the level of a cloud/sublimator or even an ssv, that's just silly and they never claimed that.

    Personally I would be satisfied with an easier-hitting pax that doesn't have "mouthpiece issues", in a pen form factor. That would be simply outstanding, and I would call it a success.

    Others may have different metrics, and for them perhaps the grasshopper won't be as successful.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  18. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

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    With only one desktop vape to compare to!? That is like applying for a commercial pilot's license after only having flown your first solo in a single engine Cessna. Sorry, that just doesn't fly with the necessary qualification. Anyway, anyone who wants a pen to perform like a Cloud has his pie in the sky...not realistic. I would be more than happy to have a pen perform somewhere in the neighborhood of a Solo, give or take. That would be groundbreaking IMO, and well worth bragging about. Extreme caution should be taken when making claims.
     
  19. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    It's probably their biggest actual sin on these forums, that they dared to make a comparison to their desktop vape. I believe that the point of that poorly thought-out post was that they were satisfied with their desktop unit's performance but not with the pens that they had tried for herbs. Since many others are also satisfied with that particular desktop vape it's not really that much of a stretch to see where they were coming from.

    I would need to read it again, but to me that post read more like a comparison to a single product than a blanket claim. As we all know here, there are many levels of desktop vape performance. I think that grasshopper knows that now, but probably didn't when they made that comparison.

    Otoh, the battery-life claims were more incredulous than the performance comparisons (imo). If the grasshopper is truly this efficient with the performance it claims, it will be the game changer!
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  20. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

    Messages:
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    Though it was probably not intentional hyperbole, it was extremely naive, nonetheless. I think you agree. As I've said before, it is important to know your market and the range of product within so you can intelligently address your target audience. I think naivete and underestimating our ability and propensity to critique was at play here. Just my opinion and I'm more than ready to move on, forgive, forget, and help if I can.
     
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  21. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    Yes I would definitely agree that there was some naivete in making that comparison, and about the overall vaporizer marketplace as well--for which they are receiving a crash course right here at fc!

    But I think that there is also enthusiasm and idealism and hopefully an honest dollop of love behind this particular product, and if they have the technological skills and business acumen to make it so they should be supported at least as much as they are vetted/criticized.

    Just my :2c:, I'm not saying I'm right or anything.
    I just chose to have faith, and I backed it up with money out of my pocket.
    And now like everybody else I will wait.
    :popcorn:
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  22. Zenpen

    Zenpen Grasshopper Manufacturer

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    Location:
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    Good point Grokit

    Our original claim was that it is "comparable to desktop vaporizers". If anything I will admit that this a vague perhaps even meaningless statement, but we certainly didn't expect anyone to think we're saying its a volcano in a pen. That would be...unrealistic. The statement is supposed to indicate that it is closer in performance to desktop vapes then it is to the existing portable vapes that are available. Obviously there is a huge variety of desktop vapes, and we have never claimed that it can compete with the best ones. If you look at the word comparable, you'll find the following def:

    comparable[ˈkɒmpərəbəl]
    adj
    1. worthy of comparison
    2. able to be compared (with)
    comparability , comparableness n
    comparably adv

    So basically we said its worthy of comparison, we're not saying that when you compare it you will find it superior or equal every time.
     
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  23. Bob Loblaw

    Bob Loblaw Astralnaut

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    e·quiv·o·ca·tion
    iˌkwivəˈkāSHən/
    noun
    1. 1.
      the use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or to avoid committing oneself; prevarication.
     
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  24. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    @Zenpen,

    Your original quote was
    Not comparable, but harder. That leaves little room for misinterpretation IMO.

    :peace:
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
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  25. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    Than that is what you should have said, rather than wrapping it up in ambiguity, eh?
     
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