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Grasshopper / Zenpen Concerns and Considerations

Discussion in 'The Vapor Lounge' started by vtac, Dec 6, 2013.

  1. GreenRoom

    GreenRoom Well-Known Member

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    This is my first crowdfunding experience. So what are the possible worst case scenarios? Can they take the money and run or are they obligated by law to follow through? And what if they produce a crappy product that doesn't do what they claim? Then what?
  2. ShayWhiteGrow

    ShayWhiteGrow vAPEhOPPER

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    Can we get a GH nonsense and whining about hypotheticals thread that way we can send the negatory speculation there. 2 videos, 200 G's, nice job guys! I can't wait till Feb!
    BLAZING OG and deadheadbill like this.
  3. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    While there is no doubt some negative nonsense and whining about the GH, there is just as much, if not more nonsense about how good this vape is, how good the company is, and how good their overall marketing and funding campaign is.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current state of speculation and that would be true even if there weren't some of these questionable practices going on.
    brucebannor, Buildozer, sadf and 6 others like this.
  4. ShayWhiteGrow

    ShayWhiteGrow vAPEhOPPER

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    That settles it! Im getting a blue one too with my green one:)
    BLAZING OG, 2clicker and Maine420 like this.
  5. deadheadbill

    deadheadbill I can see clearly now the smoke is gone...

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    Said one deadheadbill back in july 2, 2013

    Quetzalcoatl and ShayWhiteGrow like this.
  6. darkrom

    darkrom Great Scott!

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    I believe they have to produce a product, but I'm not sure. They might be able to just take the cash and declare the project a failure...I really don't know that.

    If they produce a crappy product that doesn't work as claimed, I'd say everyone who paid is SOL.
    Quetzalcoatl likes this.
  7. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

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    1,907
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    ou812?, 2clicker, sasNW and 3 others like this.
  8. ShayWhiteGrow

    ShayWhiteGrow vAPEhOPPER

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    Ask questions?? and you shall receive answers...in February :lol: boy this forum is fun. I have some not-so-intelligent friends so this place fills my void of intellect depravity :smug:
    Shrike and Snappo like this.
  9. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

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    Saw a tv commercial the other day featuring a counter-top cooking hot plate that uses induction heating rather than conduction. So then my brain jumped to the GHpen and juxtaposed the two ideas, adding insulation into the equation. The idea, it seems, has many patents applied to larger applications. I wonder if induction heating & ceramic insulation play a part here @GH. Interesting stuff:
    http://www.radyne.com/faqs.html
    http://www.google.com/patents/EP2216418A1
    grokit and Quetzalcoatl like this.
  10. PapaSmurf6768

    PapaSmurf6768 New Member

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    Well this is just bad attitude... I'm sorry I posted here in the first place if this is the quality of discussion on these forums. I'm gonna go back into lurk mode, and wait til February like everyone else.

    About the crowdfunding thing, I believe that they have to ship something, but if it sucks it could jeopardize their entire careers in the future (atleast one reason for you negative Nancy's to believe this is the real deal).
    ShayWhiteGrow likes this.
  11. Shrike

    Shrike EVOlved & Waiting to 'Hop

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    Nothing wrong with some healthy skepticism...once bitten, twice shy. :shrug:

    I'm pretty sure ALL of us would like this product to be everything they say it can be...BUT...they are going to have to prove it. :tup:

    Words are the easiest...proto product not quite as easy...finished product that DELIVERS is hardest of all.

    :cheers: :peace:
    ou812?, Buildozer, darkrom and 6 others like this.
  12. YesIt'sLoaded

    YesIt'sLoaded Member

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    22
    You know evidence they are dishonest and no evidence that they are honest are two separate things, right?
    ShayWhiteGrow likes this.
  13. nopartofme

    nopartofme Well-Known Member

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    We have evidence that they are dishonest in their marketing, by posing as normal users (astroturfing).

    We have no evidence that they are honest about the Grasshopper's capabilities, but that's nothing new and not what this thread is about.
  14. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    10,810
    Location:
    Arcadia, California
    In your first post here you said that you've been lurking here a long time. If you truly have been lurking here a long time, than it should come as no surprise to you that we run EVERY new vaporizer and their company through the FC gauntlet. GH is NOT the exception to the rule here.

    Just because our skepticism doesn't coincide with your optimism, that surely doesn't mean that the attitude is bad here or that the quality of the discussions are below internet norms. All it means is that there are many who disagree with your stance that we are nothing but a bunch of whiners who should keep their mouths shut and not challenge ANY of GH's marketing tactics..............and THAT will NEVER happen around these parts. It's what makes FC what it is.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
    OF, ou812?, Enchantre and 23 others like this.
  15. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that there's been some shilling going on. Someone here making posts with the same IP as the company... we've seen that here before with another company, Vaporfection I want to say? I'm not sure if it was Vaporfection but I do recall it happening in a thread here. Funny posts on reddit. Spamming a dozen threads on grasscity.

    Shit, I'll throw one in for ya. I've mentioned a handful of times now that I help mod another website that has a cannabis board. A thread was made there about the GH, and other users mentioned it feeling like viral marketing/spam because they had seen the grasscity spam.

    We have a few videos they posted showing it being used and one of them showing ABV changing color.

    It'll be interesting to see how everything plays out.
    Bob Loblaw, Buildozer, sadf and 7 others like this.
  16. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

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    1,907
    Here at FC we examine things, poke at them, and even kick em in the shins hard just to be sure they can stand. Please don't misunderstand, we hold in reverence the church down the street where cheerful prayers of good things to come are heard by the angels, for sure. We are not the devil's advocate working for the devil, but rather the consumer advocate and member of the free public. Crowd sourcing for some is not the same sport as, say, horse racing where no representations are made on which to rely and put down our money. It's a gamble either way, but one approach can afford an educated guess, the other can't because it doesn't care as much to know. Inquiring minds want to know.
    ou812?, Enchantre, Bob Loblaw and 3 others like this.
  17. ShayWhiteGrow

    ShayWhiteGrow vAPEhOPPER

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    Location:
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    Inquiring minds will surely know in February :) i love it that we get a whole month and a half to concoct more scenarios and skeptical imaginative shadowturf games. In all honesty, i hope th GH team doesn't say another word and just sends them when they're ready. Imagine the shit people will come up with by then :) and if you think that the makers of all other vapes dont go on here with a fake account to stir the pot, well think again!:)
  18. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    Big statement to make, do you have proof to back it up?
    OF, deadheadbill, Buildozer and 9 others like this.
  19. Zenpen

    Zenpen Grasshopper Manufacturer

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    Location:
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    These allegations of "astroturfing" are fairly ridiculous. I'm not sure that one incident where posts from two different accounts coming form the same IP address gives people licence to say we use unethical marketing tactics. You know that typically households have more than one member? I have stated before that it was my younger brother who eagerly made an account so that he could participate, without any urging from me. Is that really so hard to be believe or unforgivable, that one of my family members would try to support us? In any case was this really some brilliant masterstroke? Did we sit around saying to ourselves "Let's make one whole fake account to say how awesome we are! This will clearly make a huge impact" I don't think so. The post in question is pretty much void of content and I don't see how it could have any effect on the dialogue.

    I really don't appreciate the "shady" picture of us that you would like to draw. We have been extremely open and transparent from day one. We've been having very candid dialogues in our forum, answering multitudes of questions. There is a plethora of information available on our website. We have not failed to deliver anything we've promised and we have in no way deceived anyone. If you don't feel comfortable donating to our indiegogo campaign that is entirely your prerogative. You don't have a responsibility to try and convince people not to support us, they're grown ups, they understand the nature of crowdsourcing and they can make a decision themselves. It is my opinion that many of the users of this forum are unfamiliar with crowdsourcing and don't fully understand its nature. Yes, there are inherent risks. You have no guarantee that the product will be exactly as you hope it to be. Its not a completely finished product with reviews, if it was, I can tell you, it wouldn't be on indiegogo in the first place.

    We've heard the requests for reviews and usage videos. We'd love to make that happen, but there is no certainty that it will happen before the end of the campaign. The reality is there a lot going on at GH headquarters. We have i's to dot and t's to cross. What I find ridiculous is members of this forum, who by their own admission did not even support the campaign, making demands of us.

    We at GH would love to get back to answering real questions about the product and having friendly conversation.

    :peace:
    rcflo, BLAZING OG, axakal and 7 others like this.
  20. Snappo

    Snappo Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!" Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,907
    ...and you are also an actor in this shadow play of ours. Your part espouses the scenario that skeptics will play out their "imaginative shadowturf games". Even the lurkers will play their parts, popping in and out. Life is but a stage - there's no escaping it!
  21. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    Location:
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    @Zenpen the reason we ask so many questions is because this has already happened before, on more than one occasion here. Yes, we're a careful bunch, we've said this much to you already. I've said this much to you already. We've told you we run everyone through the FC gauntlet before, even the companies that we already know have had success with their first generation vaporizers. ThermoVape and DaVinci come to mind with their Cera and Ascent. Poke around a bit and you'll see some of the other threads have had the same stuff happen.

    We've seen this astroturfing before here. From companies that are already established, even. We've told you to put on the armor and not to take everything personally.

    Honestly, I'm very curious about the specifics of your battery. With current technology, ThermoVape's Evolution (the low resistance version anyways) could only muster about two loads with a 14500 battery. That's far from even one hour of run-time.
    OF, rcflo, dncrgrl and 12 others like this.
  22. poonman

    poonman Well-Known Member

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    The time it took you to compose that post ,
    you could have made a video .
    or maybe your little brother could ...

    You won't show a frontal ( face ) shot , but we can google your REAL names ...

    ONE GOOD UNEDITED VIDEO PLEASE SHOWING MULTIPLE HITS
    AND UNLOADING OF ABV !
  23. darkrom

    darkrom Great Scott!

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    3,319
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    I believe the makers of the volcano were busted doing that here...but I'm not 100% sure. I'm sure a mod could verify. I'm using my volcano I just got (used for a price worth paying) a couple days ago as I type this. I've said a bunch of times I'll buy a titanium GH if it meets the VERY high expectations that have been set for it.

    I believe the fact that they just said "Its not a completely finished product with reviews, if it was, I can tell you, it wouldn't be on indiegogo in the first place." is a strange choice of words in my mind. What does that even mean? Either it means if you knew it worked you'd just pay to have it made out of pocket and sell it as with most traditional businesses, or I'm reading that wrong. That seems like a very strange thing for GH to say, so I'm assuming I'm misunderstanding and would really like clarification on that part.

    I'm sorry I'm clearly being very vocal about being skeptical, I'm just sick of having my hopes built up by a LOT of portables that all seem to fall short. I simply couldn't bring myself to gamble on the indiegogo and have it not live up to the hype. I'd probably have a stroke from disappointment. If it lives up to its claims I'll be happy to eat my words and pay more than the indiegogo deal for what would be a whole new class of portable. I just have been put off by a few things from the companies actions, even more so than the fact that I can't understand how the device works.

    If you want to clear the air from the "shady" feeling we are all talking about, why can't you address a few minor things? Why can't you send ANYONE from ANYWHERE other than internally a prototype to try? Hell don't even sell it, take it to a convention or something and demo it there. No one can steal it to rip it off, and you can stress that it is a prototype and the final version would be more refined etc...

    I get that you don't have to prove anything to anyone at all, but seriously why would you not WANT to? People can understand the difference between a prototype and a final model of something. Why not just make a video of the prototype with you and one person that knows what they are doing, and is independent of your company. Let them use it and simply have them say it works or doesn't work...not even a review just a basic functionality test. I know if someone I knew was neutral tried the vape and said it worked without being an electric smoker, you'd have my money and a bunch of other peoples as well. It doesn't even have to live up to ALL of the hype that has been created, it simply has to work without smoking and it would be worth the $100 gamble. But to some of us what it looks like to be frank, is someone selling a product they won't even let a single person use. You made videos of you hitting it, so clearly it works. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to stop all the "shady" feeling once and for all by doing something that would take maybe 5-10 minutes of your time at most. I really hope you'll answer that. That is the biggest hurdle I can't get over personally.
    OF, Enchantre, bobcool09 and 11 others like this.
  24. Zenpen

    Zenpen Grasshopper Manufacturer

    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    Canada / USA

    Hi

    Its not really about the battery, the battery is the same tech that everyone else has access to accept its in a custom shape. The reason we have good performance / battery life is a result of the whole system. First there's the heating element which is designed extremely efficiently. It can heat the air entering the vape extremely quickly and with our software, on demand. This means the vape can idle at a much lower temperature, extending its battery life. Our insulation is unlike anything else vape manufacturers are using. Its requires very challenging production methods and without extensive chemical engineering knowledge, is not possible. Now because the heating is on demand and only needs bursts of power, the outside temperature never gets very high. Lots of insulation, short bursts of heating, and a compact heating zone work together to keep it cool. When in use it may warm up a tiny bit. If you left it turned on and set it down it will not heat up on the outside at all. Unless its sitting in the sun or something...
    nigel, BLAZING OG, axakal and 5 others like this.
  25. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    4,336
    Location:
    SDCA, 3rd Planet
    So with regards to the on-demand heating, it utilizes the same kind of sensors that "automatic" ecigs do? Detects a draw, activates heater, deactivates when there's no more draw?

    And here's an idea for ya if you're really hesitant about putting a face next to the vape while still appeasing all of us: can't you just add a little bit of silicone tubing to the end, enough to cause a seal but not enough to block the airholes, and then hook it up to a water pipe? Keep your face out of the picture, don't even have to add water to it, just hit it dry and it should show vapor production?

    I've seen S&B mentioned a few times whenever this astroturfing (not specific to GH, just in general) point is brought up, so you might be right. The reason I said what I said was because SWG said that ALL makers did this, which is a pretty big and an absolute claim to make. I don't like talking in absolutes like that without proof.
    nigel, darkrom, Roger D and 3 others like this.

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