Thermal Accumulator by phattpiggie

[Radwin Bodnic]

I use a TA and also a verdavap1.5 with sic and zirconium balls. 50/50 the sic balls are placed at the top towards where you heat and the zirconium balls at the bottom, just above the bowl. the result is really delicious, I tried many combinations and this is for me the best with the best balance. (I also do this in the ZXL phase3 it's even better)

Layering the balls is a very good move. This is something I need to try.

 

[Kalu]

Layering the balls is a very good move. This is something I need to try.

yes use the thermal accumulation power of sic and the softness and diffusion of zirconium which is probably the best taste but the worst thermal accumulator. the balance seems excellent (in a metallic ballvap this mixture is also wonderful)
have fun

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

yes use the thermal accumulation power of sic and the softness and diffusion of zirconium which is probably the best taste but the worst thermal accumulator. the balance seems excellent (in a metallic ballvap this mixture is also wonderful)
have fun

I thought about making a "core" of ZrO2 balls surrounded by boro but layering vertically as you did is probably more effective.

 

[kegstandman420]

https://imgur.com/a/Su0qJav

I love glass is my favorite way to consume, but with the ta3 I think it just gets too hot and isn't as refined as dyna/tempest. My wpa exploded mid hit on my bong. I don't believe it was fault of the glass blower, I've used it for months with the tempest. I think the connections on the ta may not be as smooth as the other 8mm bowls and with the higher heat expanding and constricting the connection I think is what made it exploded. I advise wooden stems. Pictures of ta3 on 2nds blackwood vortex and 2nds bog oak wpa both by simrell. The vortex gets a little warm but the wpa is perfect for the ta3.

 

[General Disaster]

I don't believe it was fault of the glass blower, I've used it for months with the tempest.

It's not usually a question of fault so much as the wpa being made for a particular purpose or conditions.
The o-rings on the TA's bowl/stem connection should provide enough space that expansion shouldn't be an issue. Assuming you weren't applying pressure to the TA - it was just sitting on the end of the wpa - did you keep the larger o-ring on to prevent the bowl touching the glass? That could have caused too much heat to transfer to the glass, but the glass almost certainly had a flaw in it, and the annealing hadn't been done for long enough for extra stresses from the additional heat in a TA. the Tempest doesn't conduct heat as quickly from the cap down through the bowl as the TA will.

 

[TedJones]

@kegstandman420 did it happen on a first/cold cap heat up? Or a subsequent one soon after? Using the same as my primary for it

 

[Shit Snacks]

https://imgur.com/a/Su0qJav

I love glass is my favorite way to consume, but with the ta3 I think it just gets too hot and isn't as refined as dyna/tempest. My wpa exploded mid hit on my bong. I don't believe it was fault of the glass blower, I've used it for months with the tempest. I think the connections on the ta may not be as smooth as the other 8mm bowls and with the higher heat expanding and constricting the connection I think is what made it exploded. I advise wooden stems. Pictures of ta3 on 2nds blackwood vortex and 2nds bog oak wpa both by simrell. The vortex gets a little warm but the wpa is perfect for the ta3.

Yeah I'm not sure who that one is from, but I know hookah head recently started making them better thicker at least... The one I have from China is also quite thick, colored glass can be a bit riskier sometimes compared to a super thick clear alternative that way too

 

[Electrofever]

I use a TA and also a verdavap1.5 with sic and zirconium balls.

Good idea ! What is the size of the balls ?
When I read posts like yours, and when a bit high, I always get to wonder how heats works. How does it flow through all the different material and through the air. And, in the end, what is heat ?

 

[kegstandman420]

@kegstandman420 did it happen on a first/cold cap heat up? Or a subsequent one soon after? Using the same as my primary for it

It was on my first bowl of the day 7 am. 20 second with big torch hit for like 15 second, went back in for a 4 second reheat and as soon as I started ripping again it exploded. I keep the extra large o ring on to separate as much metal from my stem. Definitely a scary experience. My ta3 was rolling on my carpet and and may have got some burnt carpet marks on my cap permanently( had a grayish mark where the patina was). I don't mean to blame anyone, that wasn't my intention. I just think the ta is better suited on wooden stems IMO.

 

[Rodney]

https://imgur.com/a/Su0qJav

I love glass is my favorite way to consume, but with the ta3 I think it just gets too hot and isn't as refined as dyna/tempest. My wpa exploded mid hit on my bong. I don't believe it was fault of the glass blower, I've used it for months with the tempest. I think the connections on the ta may not be as smooth as the other 8mm bowls and with the higher heat expanding and constricting the connection I think is what made it exploded. I advise wooden stems. Pictures of ta3 on 2nds blackwood vortex and 2nds bog oak wpa both by simrell. The vortex gets a little warm but the wpa is perfect for the ta3.

This same thing happened with the inside part of my vaphit stem after about a week of use with the TA3. It might just have been a bad part in the glass as the whole stem never broke just the cooking middle part.

This part here on the right

https://recommendedvapesupplies.co.uk/cdn/shop/files/20230504_141943.jpg?v=1683211882

 

[General Disaster]

I just think the ta is better suited on wooden stems IMO.

These little balls vape caps are pretty new on the scene and pack one heck of a lot more heat. A lot of glass wpa's and stems were originally made for less aggressive things like dynavaps I think. As you go up in temp the annealing of the glass matters more as it reduces the flaws that allow the crack to form. Being under tension from the o-rings makes that flaw more likely to suddenly split open as the glass starts to expand. For really flaw 'free' glass it needs annealing for days or even longer, so the annealing is done to the expected standard needed. For a DV, not so much, for a TA, a fair bit more.

 

[coolbreeze]

These little balls vape caps are pretty new on the scene and pack one heck of a lot more heat. A lot of glass wpa's and stems were originally made for less aggressive things like dynavaps I think. As you go up in temp the annealing of the glass matters more as it reduces the flaws that allow the crack to form. Being under tension from the o-rings makes that flaw more likely to suddenly split open as the glass starts to expand. For really flaw 'free' glass it needs annealing for days or even longer, so the annealing is done to the expected standard needed. For a DV, not so much, for a TA, a fair bit more.

I have a nice thick glass stem I use for mine, but I've destroyed a colored WPA as well. My other stems for it are metal lined wood, one has fins. It is a lot of heat!

 

[Kalu]

Good idea ! What is the size of the balls ?
When I read posts like yours, and when a bit high, I always get to wonder how heats works. How does it flow through all the different material and through the air. And, in the end, what is heat ?

I use for that, 3 mm balls it's very personal but I like the way the air circulates with this dimension. For the operation you have to refer to a table of thermal conductivity or thermal accumulation of materials, you can see that the sic is (almost) at the top so accumulates enormously, very good but it is a terpene killer, it is exactly the opposite with zirconium which is one of the worst thermal accumulators but which provides a density (cloud) and an incredible taste. I know that there is better like moissanite / diamodium but it is really very expensive, it is sic but much purer. In short, the two balance very well.

 

[Alligator427]

https://imgur.com/a/Su0qJav

I love glass is my favorite way to consume, but with the ta3 I think it just gets too hot and isn't as refined as dyna/tempest. My wpa exploded mid hit on my bong. I don't believe it was fault of the glass blower, I've used it for months with the tempest. I think the connections on the ta may not be as smooth as the other 8mm bowls and with the higher heat expanding and constricting the connection I think is what made it exploded. I advise wooden stems. Pictures of ta3 on 2nds blackwood vortex and 2nds bog oak wpa both by simrell. The vortex gets a little warm but the wpa is perfect for the ta3.

That suck. I ordered few days ago in dhgate a wpa like this but colorless for my TA3 because I don't like the stem of tempest with the bubbler I use (too restrictiv, the water don't fall down with the honey comb).

 

[General Disaster]

Good idea ! What is the size of the balls ?
When I read posts like yours, and when a bit high, I always get to wonder how heats works. How does it flow through all the different material and through the air. And, in the end, what is heat ?

Heat can best (easiest) be described as the vibration of the atoms that compose the material being heated. It's one way energy is transferred from atom to atom. The more energy you put into an atom the faster (more energetically) it vibrates, and as it does so, it causes any other atoms next to it to start vibrating too as some of that energy transfers to them - this is essentially conduction.

Heat has two main elements - temperature, which is fairly straightforward to understand, but also it has a quantity too. which is often measured in calories or for the scientists something like joule's. You can have a tiny amount or quantity of heat, and yet it can have a very high temperature. Because the quantity is small, it can dissipate through the material with the temperature dropping accordingly as the heat diffuses through it.

The various balls used have a number of major properties that'll effect how the vape works:
Thermal conductivity - how fast heat can travel through the material
Heat capacity - how much heat (calories) can be stored by the material.
The size and shape of the 'balls' which effects how heat is conducted from ball to ball, and also effects how the air flows through the matrix, and how the air picks up heat from the balls as it does so.

All these factors (and I've not included many more factors that will effect behaviour such as the stem, and the heating method and process, the size and shape of the matrix container (the cap), etc etc etc) will change how the vape works, it's profile so to speak, and not always in an immediately obvious manner.

Borosilicate's for example will have a higher conductivity and lower thermal capacity than zirconium.
This means they heat up faster because the heat travels into and throughout the matrix much faster (high conductivity), but the amount of heat it can hold is more limited (lower heat capacity) so when it's capacity is reached, if heating is continued the temp will start to rise much faster once the cap is in equilibrium (heat dissipating vs heat being put in (by the flame or IH)) and you're more likely to over heat it and ultimately combust no inhaling.

I'm simplifying this enormously from a physics point of view, to try and explain the basic principals. But the gist is there's a complex set of interactions going on and simply selecting a different material because it has a higher or lower conductivity, or capacity, won't just make it hotter, or hold more heat at same temp, etc. It changes the whole balance of the things and how it works.
So you can make a guess at how it will change, but it's experience actually using the new matrix you choose that'll inform you far more than trying to scientifically work it out. I suspect experimentation is king here, the material is just one factor involved, so expect surprises too sometimes.

 

[invertedisdead]

Borosilicate's for example will have a higher conductivity and lower thermal capacity than zirconium.

You’ve got that one backwards friend.
Borosilicate glass is both less conductive and less dense than zirconia ceramic.

Zirconium is a metal and will have higher thermal properties than both boro glass or zirconia ceramic.

 

[General Disaster]

You’ve got that one backwards friend.
Borosilicate glass is both less conductive and less dense than zirconia ceramic.

Zirconium is a metal and will have higher thermal properties than both boro glass or zirconia ceramic.

You are 100% percent right, wrote them down the wrong way round! Doh! (I blame the drugs myself!" )
But you get the idea, even if my brain's too addled to use the right words!
What I was trying (and failing) to express was the action of conductivity vs heat capacity (glass has higher conductivity but lower capacitance)
"This means they heat up faster because the heat travels into and throughout the matrix much faster (high conductivity), but the amount of heat it can hold is more limited (lower heat capacity)..."

Zirconium is a metal and will have higher thermal properties than both boro glass or zirconia ceramic.

Sorry, again, too addled! Meant to put Zirconia (zirconium oxide).

 

[Electrofever]

It changes the whole balance of the things and how it works.

It’s what I end up by thinking, and leads, as you say, to experimenting
Thank you for your answer, very informative, and for the time spent !

Zirconium is a metal and will have higher thermal properties than both boro glass or zirconia ceramic

I didn’t know that zirconium and zirconia weren’t the same.

 

[General Disaster]

Thank you for your answer, very informative, and for the time spent !

You're most welcome, I hope it made some sort of sense, in a stoned nonsensical sort of fashion!!

The funniest (to me, anyway) was that the bit I acknowledged getting wrong...

You’ve got that one backwards friend.
Borosilicate glass is both less conductive and less dense than zirconia ceramic.

I was so stoned, I assumed I had got it wrong without double-checking! Dur!
I actually had it correct the first time round! (although I mentioned capacity not density).

Boro's do have a higher conductivity than zirc's while their capacity to store heat ('specific heat capacity', sometimes called 'specific heat') is lower, so that bit was correct apart from ... writing zirconium instead of zirconia! Oops! Once again - I blame the drugs (yet again)!

 

[invertedisdead]

I was so stoned, I assumed I had got it wrong without double-checking! Dur!
I actually had it correct the first time round! (although I mentioned capacity not density).

Boro's do have a higher conductivity than zirc's while their capacity to store heat ('specific heat capacity', sometimes called 'specific heat') is lower, so that bit was correct

Zirconia has nearly 3X the density and 3x the thermal conductivity of borosilicate glass.

Source: I make zirconia vapes

 

[General Disaster]

Zirconia has nearly 3X the density and 3x the thermal conductivity of borosilicate glass.

Source: I make zirconia vapes

Apart from the fact you're quoting density while I was talking about specific heat (which would seem more relevant, but if density adds an additional factor to specific heat I'd be interested to know more) then you're saying the same thing as I am in the first place, no?

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

I didn’t know that zirconium and zirconia weren’t the same.

Zirconia is just zirconium dioxide. Two oxygen atoms for one zirconium atom arranged in a cristalline structure. Together they form a ceramic.

Apart from the fact you're quoting density while I was talking about specific heat (which would seem more relevant, but if density adds an additional factor to specific heat I'd be interested to know more) then you're saying the same thing as I am in the first place, no?

Specific heat is an extensive property. It extends with the quantity of matter.
ZrO2 being denser than boro, there is more mass in a Zirconia filled head than a boro one.

Reminder : heat capacity is the quantity of energy (Joules) you need to apply to a material to raise its temperature up 1°K.
In extension it is also the energy released by the material to lower its temp down 1°K.

Also keep in mind that specific heat value depends on the measurement protocol and results vary depending on the technic used.

Let's do the math.

ZrO2 :
• specific heat capacity : 420 J/(k•kg)
• volumetric mass : 5,85 g/cm3

Borosilicate :
• specific heat capacity : 830 J/(k•kg)
• volumetric mass : 2,23 g/cm3

Let's assume a head filled with 100 x 3mm balls. (R = 1,5 mm = 0,15 cm)
Total balls volume = 100 (4/3 x π x 0,15^3) = 1,41 cm3.

Balls mass with boro = 1,41 x 2,23 = 3,14 g = 0,00314 kg
Balls mass with ZrO2 = 1,41 x 5,85 = 8,25 g = 0,00825 kg

Now imagine room temp is 20°C and the TA head is cold. You the balls at around 220°C to vape your bowl. You need 200°K more. To reach this temp :
• ZrO2 balls need 420 x 0,00825 x 200 = 693 J
• boro balls need 830 x 0,00314 x 200 = 521 J

What does that means ?
To get to the same temp, ZrO2 balls will need more torching (longer or bigger flame) than boro.
But because it has stored more energy ZrO2 will take longer to cool down, releasing more energy than boro.

We can do the math for rubies and SiC if you want.

 

[fropones]

Zirconia is just zirconium dioxide. Two oxygen atoms for one zirconium atom arranged in a cristalline structure. Together they form a ceramic.


Specific heat is an extensive property. It extends with the quantity of matter.
ZrO2 being denser than boro, there is more mass in a Zirconia filled head than a boro one.

Reminder : heat capacity is the quantity of energy (Joules) you need to apply to a material to raise its temperature up 1°K.
In extension it is also the energy released by the material to lower its temp down 1°K.

Also keep in mind that specific heat value depends on the measurement protocol and results vary depending on the technic used.

Let's do the math.

ZrO2 :
• specific heat capacity : 420 J/(k•kg)
• volumetric mass : 5,85 g/cm3

Borosilicate :
• specific heat capacity : 830 J/(k•kg)
• volumetric mass : 2,23 g/cm3

Let's assume a head filled with 100 x 3mm balls. (R = 1,5 mm = 0,15 cm)
Total balls volume = 100 (4/3 x π x 0,15^3) = 1,41 cm3.

Balls mass with boro = 1,41 x 2,23 = 3,14 g = 0,00314 kg
Balls mass with ZrO2 = 1,41 x 5,85 = 8,25 g = 0,00825 kg

Now imagine room temp is 20°C and the TA head is cold. You the balls at around 220°C to vape your bowl. You need 200°K more. To reach this temp :
• ZrO2 balls need 420 x 0,00825 x 200 = 693 J
• boro balls need 830 x 0,00314 x 200 = 521 J

What does that means ?
To get to the same temp, ZrO2 balls will need more torching (longer or bigger flame) than boro.
But because it has stored more energy ZrO2 will take longer to cool down, releasing more energy than boro.

We can do the math for rubies and SiC if you want.

Not that it changes the results, but your math oversimplifies the heat transfer, assuming it will be entirely radiant. You need to take the thermal conductivity (and to a degree thermal expansion) into account, as the balls would all be heated by conduction. That said, the zirconia should have more thermal mass, allowing to maintain a higher surface temperature for longer during the forced convection while hitting it.

Also, it’s just K, not °K

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

Not that it changes the results, but your math oversimplifies the heat transfer, assuming it will be entirely radiant.

I've just calculated the amount of energy needed to get the mass of 100 x 3mm balls up to temp depending on the material they're made of.
It is far from real life situation but a good starting basis for experimentation.

Also, it’s just K, not °K

Indeed

 

[fropones]

Brings me back to heat and mass transfer class 15 years ago and the dozens of different dimensionless numbers