The Screwball by Vapvana

Shafty

Member
Seems to me with many of these small and innovative companies there's a constant balancing act of managing their product(s) vs managing their customers vs managing their business. Each element effect the others, and the balance is constantly changing as external factors often unpredictable occur, while often having to learn many new skills as they go. So to expect the same sort of service as from large established profit engines is not really realistic.

They comprise a whole ecosystem of their own, and as pointed out provide us with products that would be unlikely to see the light of day otherwise, and in our turn, we give these companies a chance to thrive by investing in them by buying their gear. It's a game of give and take. Without accepting the fact we act almost like investors for the company and in return take certain risks (such as customer service sometimes suffering) and in return we get shit to play with that few others even know exists.

So when I see Vapvana bring out one of the best ball vapes currently at a price that few other equivalent products can match, if I get a bad o-ring, that's something I can source myself if need be and hardly expensive. It's not like having to spend $50 or $100 on a new part. To expect a tiny brand new company to be perfect on everything is not realistic or reasonable.
The exception I saw here was the failed Pid, that ought to have been a no-brainer to get replaced asap. But if an o-ring is going to create paroxysms of anger against the company, maybe this cutting edge stuff isn't the best place to be? Stick to a Mighty or whatever?
Right? Like, where's the human empathy here? These are our bros! They're making stuff we wouldn't have dreamed of years ago. To do it all on likely a tiny budget is impressive. If it's a quality product, and the interactions are respectful, my patience is relatively unlimited. No point getting worked up over TED gear.

Is the issue a seal leaking dye or is that even confirmed? I haven't seen that before in my own work(hydraulic service). There's likely a plain black seal that would fit as well.
 

General Disaster

Of cabbages and Kings.
You nailed it pretty much how I feel Orings a whatever I can find my own. It was the PID thing that had me concerned.
While I'm the last person to comment on how to run a business (other than running it into the ground! 😁) I have to wonder whether they expanded the product range too fast, and it's caught up with them in some way. Hopefully the new staff will get on top of things soon, it must feel awful to have that pressure of customer concern's on your back.

Right? Like, where's the human empathy here? These are our bros!
I can understand the frustration of dashed expectations, especially with the ol' Vape Acquisition/Anxiety Syndrome racking up the tension, but feedback is much more productive without the high emotions in the content.
 
General Disaster,

Shafty

Member
I can understand the frustration of dashed expectations, especially with the ol' Vape Acquisition/Anxiety Syndrome racking up the tension, but feedback is much more productive without the high emotions in the content.
My take is that there are some addiction and anxiety issues tied into it. I don't like that some people vent those frustrations on others. If they get worked up over it, maybe it's time for some self reflection.

People react as though a dialog isn't possible, instead of acting curious and asking questions.

Any point moving from a CH Moab to the wireless Screwball?
 

Mr.Grumpy

Member
Right? Like, where's the human empathy here? These are our bros! They're making stuff we wouldn't have dreamed of years ago. To do it all on likely a tiny budget is impressive. If it's a quality product, and the interactions are respectful, my patience is relatively unlimited. No point getting worked up over TED gear.

Is the issue a seal leaking dye or is that even confirmed? I haven't seen that before in my own work(hydraulic service). There's likely a plain black seal that would fit as well.
Those rings are a special high temp compound. Remember these orings must be able to take whatever heat setting the coil is set to, including a long duration heat soak. A normal black buna-n oring won't cut it. And trying to source high temp orings in small amounts from a manufacturer is $$$$.
 

General Disaster

Of cabbages and Kings.
My take is that there are some addiction and anxiety issues tied into it.
If those things really are factors (and I suspect there are a whole variety of reasons), then you have to allow for their impact on the subconscious mind. Addiction alone is a hugely powerful, poorly understood process. It's stems from natural processes being taken beyond their limits of regulation in the body so expecting normal thought patterns (whatever a normal thought pattern is! 😉) won't help. Addictive behaviour can generate all sorts of unsocial behaviour, but may well not be perceived by that person. Calling them out for it, even if correct (especially if correct!), usually just puts people on the defensive and in denial.

People react as though a dialog isn't possible, instead of acting curious and asking questions.
I understand what you're saying, and you're not way off the mark, but some people don't understand this or even realise they do it. Sometimes gentle suggestions can be better than accusation and diminution of them and their actions even if grievous. Some people never get taught many of the rules about interacting, plus, strong emotions often blind people to the reality of the situation. I'm aware of this in myself where I can get very angry and frustrated over something and it's taken time to learn to try not to respond during that period, but wait for the adrenalin to subside.

@Shafty ...
I would just buy the Ace housing if I were interested in that. You aren't going to see any benefit moving to the crossing PID controller.
I'd be inclined to agree. I tried my old CH pid with my screwball, even recalibrated the pid for it, but although the CH pid gave a far more precise realtime temperature reading (couldn't say if accuracy was any better or worse) with the readout following the change of temp in the coil and ball-head, it was quite a bit slower to heat up, and in the end I found the matched pid worked better, once I'd understood the different way it reads out the temperature, like allowing a few mins after it reads the correct temp as the read out won't show the smaller variations as it equalises.
(Caveat - I don't leave my 'ball running, turn it on, use it, turn it off; so a fast heat up is better in that situation.)
 
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Shafty

Member
We don't need to debate whether any FC users have a THC addiction, it's a certainty. I make no judgement either way on it. Notice my lack of detail in that. I'm not addressing that any further in this thread. PM if you want.

When I see hyperbolic comments about minor issues, it's not hard to imagine the toxic interactions I've had working as CS. I've been on the losing end and it sucks your energy, time, and motivation. I try to be diplomatic, and it's usually effective, however, the work needs to get done, and I only have 2 hands. I'll bet they are quite stressed pushing for their delivery dates at Vapvana.


Back to the Screwball, and let's keep it there.
Vapvana says Viton, so there should be black replacement options. I'm waiting for the size.
 

EasyVape

Well-Known Member
Just received replacement hybrid bowls (the first warranty claim they just sent out the o-rings). Testing the new hybrid bowls I notice an improvement in the way the glass insert sits. It now pops in and out with just the right amount of snugness. I'll need more time testing the o-rings in iso but they do seem a bit more dense.
 

Shafty

Member
How are you "testing" the orings in IPA? What %?Why?

Viton is rated for it. You don't have to guess on this, there are charts all over.

Glass is harder than Ti. The ti rubs off like cutlery in a ceramic bowl. I get the same thing in ground joints with a Shovelhead ti bowl.
 

EasyVape

Well-Known Member
How are you "testing" the orings in IPA? What %?Why?

Viton is rated for it. You don't have to guess on this, there are charts all over.

Glass is harder than Ti. The ti rubs off like cutlery in a ceramic bowl. I get the same thing in ground joints with a Shovelhead ti bowl.
IPA soak and q-tip swab. The reason I'm testing has to do with a customer/FC member reporting the o-rings received from a warranty claim still bleed green pigment when swabbed with IPA. If you scroll up a bit you can read the comment on pg 59 of this thread.
 
EasyVape,

Shafty

Member
IPA soak and q-tip swab. The reason I'm testing has to do with a customer/FC member reporting the o-rings received from a warranty claim still bleed green pigment when swabbed with IPA. If you scroll up a bit you can read the comment on pg 59 of this thread.
Ah. Even if the seals are rated for it, I think if you do that very often you'll degrade them.

Those sound like silicone or another material. No surprise they leaked pigment with IPA exposure. Green hnbr or colored viton generally don't do this. Black viton has no dye.
 
Shafty,
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Walter Bishop

Well-Known Member
IPA soak and q-tip swab. The reason I'm testing has to do with a customer/FC member reporting the o-rings received from a warranty claim still bleed green pigment when swabbed with IPA. If you scroll up a bit you can read the comment on pg 59 of this thread.

You don't need to soak anything. Dip a Q-tip in iso, swab the O-Rings right where they sit in the bowl. They will bleed green right onto the Q-tip. My originals did. My replacements did as well.
 

EasyVape

Well-Known Member
I'm curious how everyone using the hybrid bowls manages the cleaning process. It appears the removal of the o-rings can damage them over time. Ideally there would be an access slot cut into the o-ring slots for easy removal/cleaning but in the current form these are nearly impossible to remove without causing some o-ring damage.

Looking at the current situation with the inserts and warranty/replacements it appears lube was applied to the o-rings or o-ring slots. I can see the glass insert covers this space up so it’s not actually in the air path when in use. Do most of you just swab out the top area of the bowl in the air path and insert with IPA and flush with another swab dipped in water? No need to take out the o-rings and clean/swab the entire hybrid bowl area with the o-rings because the insert covers them up?
 
EasyVape,

TedJones

Well-Known Member
I'm curious how everyone using the hybrid bowls manages the cleaning process.

I leave it assembled and do an iso swab. rinse, and call it done.
Still this. I’m not needing to change to the smaller connectors. Don’t believe any buildup or whatnot is happening between the outer glass and bowl (not in the air path). I’ll remove it from the larger bowl next time it needs a cleaning to inspect 👍
 
Hey everyone just curious if anyone's given moissanite a try in their Screwball?

Also I think the only Improvement Cal could make is a black zirconia version. The same design of the bowl and heater in zirconia would be perfect. It would solve the bowl seizing problem and you could make the tolerances much tighter so the bowl and heater sit together without tilting. I would put in a preorder for a black zirconia version if that ever becomes a thing.

Also, if none of that is possible, putting the temperature sensor on the opposite end of the coil will allow us to use it upside down and I think that weight distribution would hold the heater flat against the bowl.

Mixing an insulated exterior like zirconia with a super conductive interior like moissanite sounds like it'd be perfect experience. What do you guys think?
Yeah I've been looking at that idea myself got a design, just trying to source manufacturers.

Vapvana_Homebase_fanart_concept_GDH_02032024.png


Here is some concept art I cooked up last night for what I'd like to see in a duel 25mm coil hot hole for a wireless Screwball / quartz labware combo.

I appreciate the opportunity to engage in this discussion. I want to share my perspective on the topic, particularly regarding using zirconia and gem-cut rubies in ball vape designs. Zirconia is almost twice as dense as titanium. The increased density, rather than being a disadvantage, could enhance the device's efficiency by storing more heat. It also has the advantage of less thermal expansion than titanium, allowing for tighter tolerances. My view on round-cut rubies is that their purpose extends beyond compensating for design flaws in "ball vapes." Instead, the shape of the rubies contributes to a higher density within the device, further increasing the heat capacity. As I understand it, the core principle behind ball vapes involves charging a material with heat, which then heats the air. This air subsequently transfers the heat to the substance. This process's effectiveness hinges on the materials' thermal properties. Denser material in a "ball vape" acts like a battery with greater capacity. Other than the wireless design, there should be no heating problems regardless of material, as you can draw as much energy as you need from the coil.


It would be more expensive, but I'm a buy once cry once type of guy. The zirconia heater would not work with a titanium bowl because the expansion of the titanium would lock it into the zirconia. Zirconia is a ceramic, and its shape doesn't change as much when heated compared to metals. The titanium bowl seizes to the glass because of its thermal expansion. You would get tighter tolerances because you wouldn't have to account for thermal expansion as much. The only downside is that it would affect the hybrid heating, where I hope the moissanite gems would come in to compensate.

Also, Cal should revisit the updated lid design, a lid with side intakes. It could help trap heat even more and make the air more turbulent.

Here's a question for everyone: which airflow would be better in all convection vapes, laminar or turbulent? In my heart, laminar makes more sense, but in my head, wouldn't the air become turbulent when it hit the weed, almost nullifying the laminar air flow immediately? If that were the case, the more chaotic the flow from the start, the better.

An "espresso" machine vape would be best if you think about it like coffee. I always see those "influencers" talking about even extraction and good saturation on Instagram. That's the direction we need to head.

PS. I'm just a drunk/high guy talking out of my ass. Please don't take anything I say seriously.
I think a vortex type flow would be the best as it would allow the hot air to mix better. If not a vortex in the heater one could be created quite easily for the outlet so as the hot air leaves the heater it's swirled and mixed thoroughly before hitting the bowl material. If the outlet holes were all angled say in a clockwise direction it would allow the air leaving the heater to swirl into a vortex mixing it all up and possibly helping to mix the bowl material as well as the hot air. Saying all that, the hot air leaving the Screwball seems very even anyway. I definitely like the Zirconia idea.

Vapvana_Homebase_fanart_concept_GDH_02032024.png


Here is some concept art I cooked up last night for what I'd like to see in a duel 25mm coil hot hole for a wireless Screwball / quartz labware combo.
Wish I could see that art but seems to of been deleted. Hopefully I'll find it further on in the thread.

Nothing what so ever! 🤣
I'm not doing science, I'm speaking about my direct experience using this, as against my B2. Nothing more than that.
It's impossible to make much of any absolute temperatures since the calibration and positioning of the probe will impact that regardless of the products being used. All the Pid display gives, which is all I have, is a relative number against which we can make comparisons with previous runs, and to a slightly lesser degree, with others using same kit.
So I'm basing my comments on the responsiveness of the Pid/coil from eye-balling, and compared to the B2, it's a lot faster to reach working temperature, and it doesn't appear to have a detectable lag that the B2 shows, where the rubies have to catch up to the coils temperature at first, with the Pid reading above the set limit for a minute or so before settling back down, and also when it's used, the B2 shows maybe 8 to 10 degree drop in temp, and requires a period of reheating before using again. The SB doesn't seem to need to do that because the extra heat from 200W is being sucked into those rubies much faster!
Or am I talking balls? 😉

Oh yeah, also see the same effect when heating the bowl - with the B2 the temp drops by maybe 8 degree's before coming back up as the bowl temp approaches the head temp. With the SB I see no drop at all, not even 1 degree (obviously it drops a little, but nothing the pid can display).

Just a thought on the kit itself, excellent as it is, I've picked up on three very small changes that I think would improve the out-of-the-box experience...

1. A tiny collar of some sort that can clip onto the stem of the coil and stop the whole assembly sliding on the stand until the head touches the steel of the up panel of the stand. Should be really cheap and easy to add I'd have thought?

2. A high-friction sticker (or feet) on the bottom of the pid so it won't slide on a smooth surface. Again, should be cheap and simple to include and makes a big difference when waving the head around on the end of that cable (I immediately stuck four little 'feet' on - much better!).

3. A wooden disk about 6cm diameter and 1cm thick, with a hole about 18mm wide at the centre, so the bowl can be placed there when hot but without touching the surface it's on (it gently wedges into the hole to support it upright), and also it can be used as a stand when filling the bowl, and will catch any crumbs that fall outside the bowl when filling it. Should again be really cheap to knock up, and yet really useful because the bowl doesn't balance well being so light, without some sort of support. Could make a slightly more sophisticated version from a high temp plastic, slightly dished like a saucer but essentially the same thing (or even a short candlestick affair out of lathed ally for a delux version).

That's not a criticism in the slightest by the way, but just the simplest cheapest things I could think of that would have improved it even more! Nothing that can't be improvised, but for sheer inclusivity, and bearing in mind the price puts this in the beginner range where some buyers may be less experienced at what to pay attention to.


Just a thought, but I used to work in wet chemistry labs, and we used a few different types of grease especially for Quickfit™ glass joints (glass to glass only, not suitable for the SB bowl) to prevent sticking. Some were silicon based, just a clear thick gel, and designed for high vacuum seals - others that wouldn't dry up and cause a seizure, wouldn't boil or out-gas etc. in a reaction vessel. i.e. a good few types and uses.
If this remains an issue (when doesn't it?) it may be searching online will come up with some options worth trying (avoid vaseline etc!). If not the more usual and popular online distributors, then going direct to scientific supplier websites (Dow Corning make them if you want a search term). As well as grease, another solution for glass-glass joints are thin ptfe sleeves that go around the male part before slipping into the female socket and preventing glass touching glass while providing a good seal.
Graphite or carbon tape might be better as that shouldn't off gas anything and is used for glass blowing usually on lathes to help hold joints or bungs in place.

Graphite or carbon tape might be better as that shouldn't off gas anything and is used for glass blowing usually on lathes to help hold joints or bungs in place.
Forgot to mention it's pretty expensive though on the size reels of it that are available from glass supply shops such as Mountain Glass Arts.
 

.brew

Well-Known Member
Er, you just have made a judgement! 🤔😄
Yes, and it's completely inappropriate along with all that psychobabble talk preceding it.

The facts are this:

1. The company and its product launched from this site, with feedback from this site's users
2. The customers are experiencing issues with these products
3. The owner of the company came to this site and stated that, upon observing that only a minority of codes tied to this site were used in purchases, he determined to focus customer support elsewhere

Now, if customers are feeling like their concerns aren't being responded to adequately it's because they aren't...the owner of the company said as much...but somehow it's being attributed to internet toxicity, THC addiction, and general antisocial behavior?

I'd like to see some credentials for the people spouting off with those claims because they're more than annoying and rude, they're barely scientifically defensible and certainly dismissive of the valid concerns raised in this thread.
 

timpo17

Member
My ace preorder was shipped tues 10/29. I'm psyched. I'm glad there's been some action and communication from the company this week. If they were going to push back again with minimal communication, I was planning on cancelling everything today. So I'm super excited for the ace to get to the green mountains. What concentrate cleaning maintenance supplies should I get? Iso spray? Glob mops? I don't have any experience with bangers and what not. I use a pico/sai taf for on the go and a dirty ditanium at home currently.
 

jaanky

New Member
My preorder was placed on 9/12 (I believe they were accepting them for about a month at this point?) and it has not shipped. I did receive a prompt explanation from CS less than two hours after reaching out yesterday:
Hey [jaanky], we got our first shipment in on Tuesday and have more on the way currently. We are doing our best to process the orders quickly in the order that we received them. We are doing our best to get as many orders as we can out everyday but there was a lot of orders and we are a small team. I expect Cal to send out another email soon with more information. We appreciate your patience and support. Please let me know if there is anything else I can help with. Thanks! -Beau

The email from Cal in question:
Hi [jaanky],

This is Cal, the founder of Vapvana. I wanted to give you another update in regards to your pre-order.

We received the first batch of our shipment this Tuesday and have been fulfilling orders in the order we've received them, based off of the items that came in our first batch (the 25mm blenders aren't ready yet, and will be shipped out separate).

The second part of our order is on the way, and we are waiting for the tracking to update for the day it will arrive. I'm assuming it will be here between tomorrow and Tuesday next week. After the shipment arrives we will continue shipping out orders ASAP.

When you receive a tracking number that means your order has been packed to be sent out. If you haven't received a tracking number yet, it is due to us waiting on the second part of our order.

Myself, Beau (Head of Customer Success) and Rupert (Head of AZ Logistics) truly appreciate your support and patience. We are all excited to get you setup with your orders ASAP.

If you have any questions, please respond here and Beau will take care of you.

Thanks again for your patience,

Cal & Vapvana Team

No salt over here, just relaying facts for anyone following along. That said, one more delay and I might pony up for a Zenleaf Moab bundle for some made in USA goodness :whoa:
 

JT-Shawk

Member
Yes, and it's completely inappropriate along with all that psychobabble talk preceding it.

The facts are this:

1. The company and its product launched from this site, with feedback from this site's users
2. The customers are experiencing issues with these products
3. The owner of the company came to this site and stated that, upon observing that only a minority of codes tied to this site were used in purchases, he determined to focus customer support elsewhere

Now, if customers are feeling like their concerns aren't being responded to adequately it's because they aren't...the owner of the company said as much...but somehow it's being attributed to internet toxicity, THC addiction, and general antisocial behavior?

I'd like to see some credentials for the people spouting off with those claims because they're more than annoying and rude, they're barely scientifically defensible and certainly dismissive of the valid concerns raised in this thread.
It's also an uncharacteristic animosity for FC. I'm a new member but I've been lurking as a guest for years. I work in tech, the one and only internet forum I look at other than occasionally perusing the SysAdmin reddit page for IT dorks like me, is FC. What has always drawn me to FC is the discourse is respectful and mature, it's about as opposite of 4-chan as possible and that's what I want. I felt like these comments were not just inappropriate but also wholly out of place.

I personally got an email from Cal just the other day advising me of the same thing, my order is going to ship and I'm not at all concerned or mad at a company of 3 people having logistics issues at times. No one here is looking to screw anyone over. That is one of THE most amazing things about this community.

Lastly, in general, don't assume negative intent. If you assume negative intent on another party and treat it that way, then you're causing your own problems. Mistakes happen, baseless accusations in response just add negativity where it isn't needed and definitely aren't what this community is about.

Lastly, I'm sorry but the complaint about the grommets, here's a thought, don't swab them with ISO when there is absolutely no reason to do so. That's like complaining that paper burns when you set it on fire.
 

Walter Bishop

Well-Known Member
Lastly, I'm sorry but the complaint about the grommets, here's a thought, don't swab them with ISO when there is absolutely no reason to do so. That's like complaining that paper burns when you set it on fire.

ISO is likely the most common solvent used to clean vaporizers. People are absolutely going to use it to clean these bowls, period. The issue isn't swabbing the O-Rings. It's the fact that they bleed green "stuff" when exposed to ISO. And then the question becomes when they bleed this "stuff" is any left dried on the bowl? And then, when heated to near 500 degrees, does this "stuff" volatilize? Are we inhaling it? I believe it's a legitimate concern. And accusations about people making their own problems aren't going to stop me from asking it.
 
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