The Grasshopper

[syrupy]

All he would have had to do would be to insert the word, "some" before the word "other".

Now I know that most of you guys would say that I'm really nitpicking here, but in my opinion, words matter, especially when making performance claims about a new product that you are introducing to the marketplace.

This is a brand new company and as such, anything that can be done to increase your credibility is paramount since they have no track record in the credibility department. They are starting from scratch here. They were very successful in raising tons of money. What they have to do now is to make it very clear that that success was warranted and they can help do that before the product is released............................or not.

You are nitpicking. I consider GH to be a pre-vape company, not a vape company, because of the lack of actual product that I can click on and buy today. As such, I expect a lot of hype and fundraising antics designed to generate excitement and money. And I cut some slack for the claims since none of them are verifiable. But Trevor HAS to believe in the product more than anyone else. Or else it wouldn't be worth all the effort.

I respectfully disagree with the importance of credibility at this stage. The most critical thing for a new company is sales. No new vape company has credibility or can generate it quickly. Building a reputation is a good long-term strategy if the company is around to leverage it. Sales will buy time. Reputation takes time.

And I'd guess 90% of vape buyers don't care about the company at all, but want to try a new delivery system for their herbs. Something stealthy with clean lines. Or something to impress friends. "Convection? What's that? Just tell me which end to cram my bud in." Yeah it will be a rude awakening if performance lacks, but... did you hear about that new vape that WhateverCorp is developing that the thing is a beast so they say let's start a new thread. And the wheel turns...

 

[PAZ]

Why? There's some great information being discussed and debated here, both from engineering and marketing points of view. I find this thread to be very informative and the information provided can be extrapolated way beyond just the GrassHooper.

Seems to me to be a great study in what and what not to do in bringing a new product to market as well as insights into possible new technologies that have yet to make an appearance.

In regards to the marketing side, how many actual consumers do you think have actually read all these claims? I would bet more than half the backers haven't followed it closely since, certainly not to the extent that this forum has been doing.

Part of marketing is knowing your audience. I would argue they're trying to attract the younger audience who needs a more discreet pen who's at college/university. Those consumers aren't going to be nitpicking through every post or video.

This is a vape that was able to raise 350 k before it was even built. I know they've made plenty of pretty outlandish claims, but at the end of the day they have been ridiculously successful compared to many other manufacturers trying to get their vape out onto the market.

Could they have done lots of things better? Yes. However, if they had the chance to do it all again, they wouldn't change much due to how successful their pre-launch has been. The things that matter to this forum are probably trivial to them. Now clearly things could change in the future, but for now i'm sure they're more than happy.

 

[EveryDayAmnesiac]

I am learning, learning is fun.

Yeah, this thread has been making me feel like Ralph Wiggum lately...

Or is it just deja vu... ?

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Battery life is so subjective and depends on many factors. Assuming the loss through the heater efficiency itself is similar (most heating elements are resistive metal) and assuming no magic battery the main loss is through conduction through the device. If it's not in the air steam it's lost heating the device. I recently was involved in an experiment where a convection vaporizer was run both back to back loads as well as letting the device cool off between sessions. By not letting the device cool off the temperature delta between the heater / air in the device is minimized thereby reducing the heat transfer. 20 loads where consumed with the back to back method and only 12 when allowed to cool. There is also the factor of what temperature you run at... If you run at a higher temperature you can vaporize fully with fewer draws but your delta T is higher so where that one falls out I am not sure... But gradually bring up the temperatures through the session will be less efficient. So many variables allow for marketing "specmanship" ... As others have said the real measure is the popular opinion of the customers. what is the target release date for the GH?

 

[hoptimum]

I know they've made plenty of pretty outlandish claims, but at the end of the day they have been ridiculously successful compared to many other manufacturers trying to get their vape out onto the market.

how can you say they've been successful when after several years they haven't produced a product? If a company is in business to sell product, I would think it would be incumbent upon them to actually have a product on the market. Otherwise they've been paying salaries and bills without any income. That's no way to run a business, IMO

 

[mitchgo61]

I respectfully disagree with the importance of credibility at this stage. The most critical thing for a new company is sales.

The most important thing for a new product company is to actually create products, and get them into the hands of customers.

This is a vape that was able to raise 350 k before it was even built. I know they've made plenty of pretty outlandish claims, but at the end of the day they have been ridiculously successful compared to many other manufacturers trying to get their vape out onto the market.

They've been successful in taking pre-orders. Getting it into the market...still TBD.

Yeah, this thread has been making me feel like Ralph Wiggum lately...

I told you you were "special".

 

[Snappo]

Why? There's some great information being discussed and debated here, both from engineering and marketing points of view. I find this thread to be very informative and the information provided can be extrapolated way beyond just the GrassHooper.

Seems to me to be a great study in what and what not to do in bringing a new product to market as well as insights into possible new technologies that have yet to make an appearance.

I feel that all of the speculative information that has come about up to this point will be very useful when comparing & contrasting actual performance when finally in hand and out into the world. Not for the purposes of saying "I told you so", but to actually tweak our own knowledge and preconceptions about marketing, engineering, performance, and usage variables that will be particular to this vape alone and in comparison/contrast to others. A learning experience for all, I would hope.

 

[Mister G]

I think this thread has been especially helpful for the likes of the Zion, Okin and whatever name @THC SCIENTIFIC gives his upcoming portable that he's been working on.

 

[lwien]

A learning experience for all, I would hope.

A learning experience for "some" being that there are those who have expressed that these discussions, speculations and debates are a total waste of bandwidth.

 

[HillaryClinton]

Yeah, this thread has been making me feel like Ralph Wiggum lately...

Or is it just deja vu... ?

Oh man, Ralphy, the one character I wanted to get his own show.

 

[PAZ]

how can you say they've been successful when after several years they haven't produced a product? If a company is in business to sell product, I would think it would be incumbent upon them to actually have a product on the market. Otherwise they've been paying salaries and bills without any income. That's no way to run a business, IMO

How many vape companies are able to have that many sales without having a product? Not many.

So instead of doing all this R&D into a product that may or may not sell, they know they already have a product that have piqued people's interest enough to do a pre-order. I know i'd rather work with 350 k in sales and spend a bit more time making the product that I envisioned, rather than have a set timeline where I have to make deadlines because I have to get the product out.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Battery life is so subjective and depends on many factors.... what is the target release date for the GH?

Backers presumably in mid to late March, maybe April. Early pre orders were for April, current pre orders are for May now

 

[mitchgo61]

How many vape companies are able to have that many sales without having a product? Not many.
.

So if I sell you a bridge I may not actually own, I'm "successful"?

We have a different word for that in my town.

Success, in biz, is a marathon, not a cash-grab sprint. GH may very well turn out to be fabulously "successful"...but using that term to describe anything other than their pre-release capital raise is just specious, at best.

 

[HillaryClinton]

So if I sell you a bridge I may not actually own, I'm "successful"?

We have a different word for that in my town.

Success, in biz, is a marathon, not a cash-grab sprint. GH may very well turn out to be fabulously "successful"...but using that term to describe anything other than their pre-release capital raise is just specious, at best.

Agreed 100%, so far they are not successful. I think if anything they will be at least partially successful, I mean ffs look at Atmos...no doubt in my mind even if it ships with issues it will be better then those things(Boss/etc.. excluded).

 

[PAZ]

So if I sell you a bridge I may not actually own, I'm "successful"?

We have a different word for that in my town.

Success, in biz, is a marathon, not a cash-grab sprint. GH may very well turn out to be fabulously "successful"...but using that term to describe anything other than their pre-release capital raise is just specious, at best.

That really isn't the same at all.

Also, why are you only quoting the lead-in statement to my main point? Are you trying to twist my words?

Anyways, what I was pointing out is that they have done a good job and in my mind, they have been successful with their implementation plan via crowd-funding. I'm basing my opinion on what they've currently done, not what they might possibly do when I call them successful. So yes, i'm talking about how they went about their pre-release, I don't know why you're trying to twist my words in a way I think that they're a successful reputable company, i'm not. I'm just saying up to this point, they've done a very good job on the start up and have results that any start-up company would want.

To be clear, I'm not saying their vaporizer is a great product, because no one has had it. I'm not saying they'll have great customer service, since we don't know how they'll handle their warranty. We do know they made a smart choice on their start up by crowd-sourcing, and that they've given plenty of updates on the manufacturing of the product. We also know they've made some outlandish claims.

 

[Krazzykid]

That could never have been the case, where GH sits idling at temperature waiting to deliver instant hits. The outside would become too hot to handle in short order no matter how nifty the insulation you put in that tiny space.

IMO it has to be a 'call for each hit' deal. You press the button, light the pretty blue light inside, and start the heating cycle. Much like with Puffit. Some (hopefully short) time later it's ready to deliver vapor for a short time before shutting down the heat to save battery. Again, like Puffit, ESV and the like. As G points out this sometimes doesn't save much if you reheat again quickly, but for more casual use it does.

I believe that (to start a hit cycle) had been the reason for the button from the start. It never was the sort of vape say Solo is where you turn it on, take a session and shut it off when done (if it doesn't time out first). Otherwise, what's the blue light about?

OF

I'm just throwing out some speculation here

If the GH were to use a system similar to the what DNA40 board for ecigs uses, then it could potentially* hold a heating element at vaping temp for 3-4 hours (obviously heat moving outwards would still be an issue).

The DNA40 ecig board, when using a heating coil constructed with Nickel200 wire, prevents the heating coil from going beyond your set temperature (acting as a speed limit, rather than a cruise control.)
Let's say I set my max temp to 420F at 30W and fire the device without inhaling. It will quickly reach 420F and then throttle back the wattage to prevent it from going over the set temp. It can hold the temperature right around 420F and use less than 1watt doing so.
As soon as I begin inhaling the wattage used jumps all of a sudden due to the fresh air being introduced.

If the GH were to use a similar setup then it has a much greater chance of being able to come close to that 3-4 hour run time, assuming no inhaling is done at all.

*I say possibly because this is all hopeful speculation on my part.

 

[Scott A]

People keep trying to spin the 3-4 hour thing but in their own words they said 3 hours of continuous usage. Simply holding the element at vaping temp means you are not using the vaporizer. I dont consider my phone sitting in standby mode to be in use either.

 

[Krazzykid]

People keep trying to spin the 3-4 hour thing but in their own words they said 3 hours of continuous usage. Simply holding the element at vaping temp means you are not using the vaporizer. I dont consider my phone sitting in standby mode to be in use either.

It's not us trying to spin it, just trying to understand it.

Trevor himself is the one that said the original 3-4 hour continuous usage actually meant "on and hot", not inhaling. We are being told that it never meant producing vapor for 3-4 hours.

It's kind of shady of them to make that distinction at this stage of the game, but it is what it is.

 

[Chill Dude]

So instead of doing all this R&D into a product that may or may not sell, they know they already have a product that have piqued people's interest enough to do a pre-order. I know i'd rather work with 350 k in sales and spend a bit more time making the product that I envisioned, rather than have a set timeline where I have to make deadlines because I have to get the product out.

Agreed, I think we should applaud the fact that they have chosen not to rush their product to market. They endeavor to make the Grasshopper the best it can be before being sent out to customers. If they were in it for the quick kill, they would of quickly slapped together an inferior product and sent it out for delivery.

On another note, some on this thread are complaining that the Grasshopper guys lack a presence on this thread. Really, do you blame them? Another member posted a response received from Grasshopper and they were immediately jumped on... Not enough detail, misrepresented the facts, amateurish business skills,deceptive marketing, they're frauds and liars... Need I go on? Come on man...what do you expect? A detailed PHD Dissertation with exhaustive detail every time they try to answer some questions....

That's why some of the best vaporizer companies do not post on FC. For example, Herbalizer, Arizer, Storz and Bickel..I think it's blatantly obvious why they don't participate!! Let these guys run their business as they see fit. They never asked for business and marketing consultants, engineers or arm chair quarterbacks on a vaporizor forum telling them how to run their business. Did it ever occur to any of you that they might actually know more about their unreleased device than anyone on this thread?

 

[mitchgo61]

That really isn't the same at all.

Also, why are you only quoting the lead-in statement to my main point? Are you trying to twist my words?

Not even a little. I was quoting the salient précis of your post (at least that's how it read to me). In two separate posts you praised GH's success, specifically citing their capital raise as proof. If, like many of us, you wouldn't consider them "successful" until they release and support a product, that's not really what you said. But if I've misread your two posts on this subject, I apologize. I was taking issue with your main point as I read it...I have no interest in misrepresenting anyone's words.

 

[lwien]

On another note, some on this thread are complaining that the Grasshopper guys lack a presence on this thread. Really, do you blame them? Another member posted a response received from Grasshopper and they were immediately jumped on... Not enough detail, misrepresented the facts, amateurish business skills,deceptive marketing, they're frauds and liars... Need I go on?

While I agree that that "could" be the reason that they and some other manufacturers are not active here, I tend to believe that a more accurate reason is a legal one. I have no doubt that their attorneys recommend that they refrain from being active on sites whose primary focus is cannabis consumption for it just adds some legal uncertainties that makes it not worth the risk.

The same thing happens over at GC. Manufacturers themselves are not active there but some of them employ the GC mods to put up a promotional post and stickie it and again, done for legal issues.

It's the same reasons why you don't see manufacturers specifically state in their own add copy that their product is designed for cannabis use.

However, you will see them active on Reddit because it is a site that is not focused on marijuana.

 

[Chill Dude]

You can believe what you want to believe, but the fact of the matter is there are a multitude of reasons why well run, smart companies avoid posting here. A huge reason is company bashing and ill will towards a business. In fact, even several of the FC Mods have brought up my point several times in the past based upon how badly some companies have been treated on this forum simply trying to represent their product.

If I was about to launch a device, there's no way in hell I would post here!!

 

[CarolKing]

The Arizer company in their product instructions the units are called an aroma therapy device. And no they don't come on FC. We didn't hear anything hardly about the Arizer Air until it was posted on their online store ready for purchase.

If there were new ideas regarding heaters, batteries and insulation, you'd think some of these larger companies would come out with a pen vape for herb that's small and stealth.

I think since this company asked the public for money, their feet are to the fire. Especially since they advertised this product the way they did. I'm hoping still that they can come out with an herb vape that will work as intended. They state 3 or 4 sessions or trenches. That would be subjective some folks have very large draws and some don't.

 

[t-dub]

I think its obvious why S&B and some others won't post here, they don't want anything to do with cannabis legally. I wrote a review on their site of the Crafty and they edited out a portion I wrote that referred to loading and enjoying the product. Never even mentioned cannabis directly either.

 

[TheWhisper]

Still their claims have set expectations and raised concerns/suspicions that could, it seems, be easily resolved......if they chose to? Until then I think it's not only normal but healthy that folks are considering what information we have.

IMO it sure beats expecting 4 plus hours per charge.

I agree. I do think speculation is important, and I've learned a ton about vaporizers from the 150+ pages of speculation that we've had so far. I'm just frustrated with the depth that people are attempting to read into imprecise responses and copy. I don't think that the GH guys are necessarily trying to beguile us. I think that they're new, they're young, and this is their first time creating a company and product from scratch (and I do think you've given great advice on your experiences doing this, @OF). They're not professional marketers; they're engineers. I don't think they're trying to be slippery in how they word things; I think they're just not verbalists.

Actually I see a couple big differences. This one is clear and verifiable. I bet Verizon can prove that or their competition would get so very rich.....and their lawyers would get rich........and the shareholders.....

I dunno. Looking at the Verizion FiOS site, they say: "FiOS Quantum is the top tier of Verizon FiOS Speeds – ranging from 50/50 Mbps to 500/500 Mbps." With Google Fiber, you get 1000 Mbps. So, Verizon's claim to be the "...fastest internet. Period." is clearly false.

A learning experience for "some" being that there are those who have expressed that these discussions, speculations and debates are a total waste of bandwidth.

Hope that's not directed at me . As I wrote in the first paragraph of this post, I'm not against speculation.

People keep trying to spin the 3-4 hour thing but in their own words they said 3 hours of continuous usage. Simply holding the element at vaping temp means you are not using the vaporizer. I dont consider my phone sitting in standby mode to be in use either.

Yet, phone companies (and most electronics companies) quote standby battery lives when talking about battery life in their advertising. While I think this is deceitful, it is just how marketers do it for electronic devices. From my perspective, it looks like the GH guys initially quoted standby life because that's how everyone else does it, but they then realized that this metric means jack shit, so they used a more meaningful one. If that's how it actually played out on their end, then I actually have to give them props for that — not for initially using standby life, but for changing it to a better metric.

It's not us trying to spin it, just trying to understand it.

Trevor himself is the one that said the original 3-4 hour continuous usage actually meant "on and hot", not inhaling. We are being told that it never meant producing vapor for 3-4 hours.

It's kind of shady of them to make that distinction at this stage of the game, but it is what it is.

It may have been shady, but as I said above, it may have actually been changed to be more straightforward. And the best worst most frustrating part is — no one but the GH guys know the real answer!


EDITED: for grammar n shiz.