slick
Well-Known Member
That's why I love FC.
The Grasshopper
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That's why I love FC.
OF
Well-Known Member
Exactly so! There's been a LOT of work put in by established vape makers working on this very thing, with the results we see available in the market. Each maker hoping to use this as a competitive advantage. Up Tech, amongst them.
G is speaking from experience here.......
No, there's also some questioning of claims, backed up by evidence. Their claims are the only information we have to respond to, but that is information. Some of that suspicion seeming to have struck a nerve? When someone (like me) says they don't understand how the run time can be so much longer than anyone else, and giving examples, that's more than random speculation I think.
When an established maker (like G) says he thinks there could be realities of insulation that don't 'jive' with claims, IMO it's time to listen.
Yeah, right. As I said early on 'if they have invented such an amazing new battery, why aren't they rich as can be already?', CentiZen raises the point, if they have such a quantum leap in insulation why have they been sitting on it for two years? Why bother with vapes, go were the real money is.
I disagree with "useless speculation". Perhaps to you, but I think it's far from useless to discuss such aspects of vapes. Educating each other about the physics involved. Discussion of ideas and opinions.
IMO just what Forums are for. Trying to 'get to the bottom' of issues of common interest.
I think we're discussing reality actually, and how that conflicts with the claims made? Reality is on our side. Until we have hardware to try objectively, their claims are really all we have to work with.
If it's not for you, fine, but please don't try to dismiss our efforts so lightly. Ignore them, go read something else if you want, but don't say they're useless when so many of us obviously find value in the discussion?
Thanks.
OF
grokit
well-worn member
I get it @OF, that's why I crossed out the useless part before you posted 
Remember the spiral air/vapor path conversation?
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-grasshopper.9952/page-111#post-699174
It seems like they should have the spiral part on the other side for cooling.
Remember the spiral air/vapor path conversation?
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-grasshopper.9952/page-111#post-699174
It seems like they should have the spiral part on the other side for cooling.
HillaryClinton
Future ruler of earth
I get it @OF, that's why Icrossed outthe useless part before you posted
Remember the spiral air/vapor path conversation?
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-grasshopper.9952/page-111#post-699174
It seems like they should have the spiral part on the other side for cooling.
I like how blue mice turn into green mice and then the green mice turns into red mice.
loosing it/10
I'm gonna agree with @OF on this and say it's going to be a 3-4 hits maybe 6-8 and back in pocket it goes for few reasons,
1 is Battery life, just not possible to get 10 min or more on a 12000 series battery, specially if the heater shuts down after every hit to conserve energy this means it's gonna use a lot more to heat back up. If the heater stays a constant temp when not in use then read next point.
And there is the Insulation, heats gonna go some where no matter how much insulation you have, it will search for the least resistant path.
Even if it's sealed you still have contact points that will transfer it.
Using that reostat temp control unit that means you are literally pulling 8 amps to get it started.
Plus when you get into the math.
Convection requires a lot of inhaling to heat up the load.
First inhale is going to be about 20-25 seconds to get vapor and any subsequent pulls will be around 8-15 second range.
Now when you add that up that's 25 seconds plus, 5 pulls at lets say 12 seconds and on average 15 seconds between each hit, that's
25 + 60 + 75 = 160 seconds or 2 min 40 seconds.
Now second session with battery drained over 30%
We need to add some seconds to that clock.
I would say second session is going to be around 3 min to 3 min 10 seconds.
3rd session would be half way replacing the battery.
These calculations are done on personal experience plus testing with many different type of users and vaporizers, they are conservative.
Please take into account the GH heater sits idle when not in use but still draws power to be able to supply heat on demand.
Plus the fact that residual heat and the fact that this said heat might effect the battery performance.
Really I hope I'm wrong and we do have a breakthrough vape this can now revolutionize the industry with each maker improving on it.
1 is Battery life, just not possible to get 10 min or more on a 12000 series battery, specially if the heater shuts down after every hit to conserve energy this means it's gonna use a lot more to heat back up. If the heater stays a constant temp when not in use then read next point.
And there is the Insulation, heats gonna go some where no matter how much insulation you have, it will search for the least resistant path.
Even if it's sealed you still have contact points that will transfer it.
Using that reostat temp control unit that means you are literally pulling 8 amps to get it started.
Plus when you get into the math.
Convection requires a lot of inhaling to heat up the load.
First inhale is going to be about 20-25 seconds to get vapor and any subsequent pulls will be around 8-15 second range.
Now when you add that up that's 25 seconds plus, 5 pulls at lets say 12 seconds and on average 15 seconds between each hit, that's
25 + 60 + 75 = 160 seconds or 2 min 40 seconds.
Now second session with battery drained over 30%
We need to add some seconds to that clock.
I would say second session is going to be around 3 min to 3 min 10 seconds.
3rd session would be half way replacing the battery.
These calculations are done on personal experience plus testing with many different type of users and vaporizers, they are conservative.
Please take into account the GH heater sits idle when not in use but still draws power to be able to supply heat on demand.
Plus the fact that residual heat and the fact that this said heat might effect the battery performance.
Really I hope I'm wrong and we do have a breakthrough vape this can now revolutionize the industry with each maker improving on it.
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OF
Well-Known Member
I prefer to think of it as an informed discussion of the information we've been given. The whole idea of discussing is to get the bad guesses out of the way. A kind of scientific look at the data, subject to peer review by a truly mixed set of peers.
For sure facts would be better, we'd rather do that, but until then I think this is way more than "just guesses".
OF
OF
Well-Known Member
I honestly don't know, but seriously doubt it. I lost interest in them at least a generation back by now.....
Here's the deal with capacitors. You put in (or draw out) an amp from a one Farad capacitor for one second you charge or discharge it by a volt. That's the definition of the Farad (unit of measure of Capacitors). When the effect of a Coulomb of electrons raises (or lowers) the voltage by one Volt, you have a 1.0 Farad part. And one Coulomb of electrons is one Amp for one second......by a different definition.
So if we want to supply 6 Amps for say 10 seconds and can accept a drop from 4.0 to 3.0 Volts over that time we need a 60 (6 X 10) Farad part. Ten such hits would need a 600 Farad part.
Capacitors, in general have like five uses in electronics. Energy storage is one. These guys are awesome performers for very short times (often critical in circuits) but for longer times I think chemical storage (batteries) have the nod. Tesla seems sold on the idea as well.
Like I said, it's been a while since I seriously looked at what was 'out there'. I understand the little guys have evolved a lot, but the numbers just seem all wrong to me if tiny is a factor as well.
Perhaps CentiZen has some insight he can share?
OF
A nice idea but still will fall short, as in the energy will be lost within seconds of turning it on.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor
CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
This has been an informed discussion. There are folks that actually know what they talking about. FCers that know about batteries and insulation and how a lot of these vaporizers work. It's a learning discussion for sure for me.
I just started reading about the GH a couple of weeks ago. At first I thought that I may want to buy this. I will see how our FCer early adopters do with it and get a few reviews from those that we can trust.
@zymos Many of these statements that our members are bringing up are more than just guesses, it sounds to me like there's some education and quite a bit of knowledge.
I just started reading about the GH a couple of weeks ago. At first I thought that I may want to buy this. I will see how our FCer early adopters do with it and get a few reviews from those that we can trust.
@zymos Many of these statements that our members are bringing up are more than just guesses, it sounds to me like there's some education and quite a bit of knowledge.
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OF
Well-Known Member
Great reference, G. Thanks.
I think the bit of interest is specific energy (how much power per pound), about mid way on the chart. Li-ions having a 20 to 40 times advantage. A slightly more accurate guide would be 'energy density', how much power per cubic foot.
It'd also be more festive if it failed I think. No need to wait for some pokey chemical reaction to make electrons for the party, in a capacitor they're already made, just stacked up and waiting to join the party at the speed of light......literally. Failures are spectacular sometimes. One of those 'over just before it happens' things.
OF
Is the wave of the future here yet?!!!
New flexible micro-supercapacitor paves way for tiny electronics
http://www.extremetech.com/electron...supercapacitor-paves-way-for-tiny-electronics
Could hemp nanosheets topple graphene for making the ideal supercapacitor?
http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/p...hene-for-making-the-ideal-supercapacitor.html
New Graphene + Carbon Nanotube Supercapacitor Rivals Lithium Battery
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/12/new-graphene-carbon-nanotube-supercapacitor/
New flexible micro-supercapacitor paves way for tiny electronics
http://www.extremetech.com/electron...supercapacitor-paves-way-for-tiny-electronics
Could hemp nanosheets topple graphene for making the ideal supercapacitor?
http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/p...hene-for-making-the-ideal-supercapacitor.html
New Graphene + Carbon Nanotube Supercapacitor Rivals Lithium Battery
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/12/new-graphene-carbon-nanotube-supercapacitor/
Then it no longer look like a pen only, and will loose some of its stealthiness.
HillaryClinton
Future ruler of earth
Its sorta sad to see how long it takes for inventions to get into our products.
PAZ
Well-Known Member
The issue with that is that there are air vents right beside the heater, so the silicone sleeve will offer minimal insulation. The majority of heat loss is going to be located near the heater. In addition, if what they claim is true which is on-demand hits(which is basically heating), there won't be too much heat loss as there will be minimal standby time.
Scott A
Well-Known Member
Its getting hot because it must reach vaporization temperatures to vaporize...
They also said it would have 3 hours of continuous usage for battery life. You should be able to see why a lot of us here take what grass hopper says with a grain of salt.
valleysquirrel
Well-Known Member
Hey guys so Trevor replied to my email much sooner than I was expecting
Here it is ..
"I have answered you questions below:
Battery life, like you said, is largely user dependent. The amount of time it will last, of actually inhaling, is also user dependent, because the Grasshopper has very low resistance air path. You can really pull the air through fast and kill the battery or you can draw slow and really extend your vaping time. This is why we are giving the life in number of chambers you can vape pre-battery, list on our site as 3-4.We originally listed battery life like most other manufacturers, which was vape on and hot. This number is pretty much pointless so we don't use it anymore even though it sounds good.
Stirring is not necessary. We will not be including a stir stick because we don't think it is needed. The chamber is designed in a way to allow for hot air to mix with the herbs, this added with our heater make for great results. The problem with other vapes is that they relay on heating the chamber which means the herbs in the center just don't get vaped unless you stir it.
A video will be released specifically about ABV on March 1st. It will show vaping a chamber of herbs at a verity of temperatures. This will help show you how even it vapes and also the battery life.
We do have a plan for an external charger. This will come out after we get shipping running smoothly.
The concentrates adapter is coming, but is still early in development. We plan to push forward on this once the Grasshopper is out the door.
The price might change, go up, once it is available for normal ordering. We are really trying to keep the price as low as possible and that is somewhat risky to us, meaning we might have to bump it up after pre-orders. We expect it to not go up much if it does.
Hope this helps, apologizes for the short hand."
Here it is ..
"I have answered you questions below:
Battery life, like you said, is largely user dependent. The amount of time it will last, of actually inhaling, is also user dependent, because the Grasshopper has very low resistance air path. You can really pull the air through fast and kill the battery or you can draw slow and really extend your vaping time. This is why we are giving the life in number of chambers you can vape pre-battery, list on our site as 3-4.We originally listed battery life like most other manufacturers, which was vape on and hot. This number is pretty much pointless so we don't use it anymore even though it sounds good.
Stirring is not necessary. We will not be including a stir stick because we don't think it is needed. The chamber is designed in a way to allow for hot air to mix with the herbs, this added with our heater make for great results. The problem with other vapes is that they relay on heating the chamber which means the herbs in the center just don't get vaped unless you stir it.
A video will be released specifically about ABV on March 1st. It will show vaping a chamber of herbs at a verity of temperatures. This will help show you how even it vapes and also the battery life.
We do have a plan for an external charger. This will come out after we get shipping running smoothly.
The concentrates adapter is coming, but is still early in development. We plan to push forward on this once the Grasshopper is out the door.
The price might change, go up, once it is available for normal ordering. We are really trying to keep the price as low as possible and that is somewhat risky to us, meaning we might have to bump it up after pre-orders. We expect it to not go up much if it does.
Hope this helps, apologizes for the short hand."
KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
I saw this animation before but I just noticed how it depicts a very uneven flow with a big red hot spot in the middle and parts untouched on the sides... Knowing some (most?) convection vapes can have a bad tendency to burn a spot there and there and leave the sides of the load very green... unless you stir often that is...
Oh, well! Nevermind! They know what they are doing, right?
Strange because for me it's the inverse: the "conduction" (radiant?) vapes I have all produce a very uniform ABV and I never ever stir.
EDIT: I really dislike this tendency they have to bash the competition and imply their products are not working, whereas their own will be a revolution.
Madcap79
Jack of all trades, master of none.
They've been claiming that it'll be one of the best vapes out there. Not for stealth or portability but just overall. I find that a little bit of a stretch but we shall see.
From their site:
The Grasshopper is exactly that - leading the industry in almost every way possible.
I know it's marketing but it's a pretty bold statement.
From their site:
The Grasshopper is exactly that - leading the industry in almost every way possible.
I know it's marketing but it's a pretty bold statement.
Trevor said:
i wonder if this will change when they have some actual use experience.
Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Yeah comparing it to an Imag or FlowerMate isn't really so purposeful to the likes of us, who k ow to compare convection vapes to convection vapes... I wonder if they really know about Firefly and Elevape, like anything at all about them? Bc they dont heat the bowl, they heat a coil underneath (or above) to pass hot air over. Their bowls are just wider so they must be stirred for hotspots.
So that being said, I dont think stirring will be required bc of the narrow chamber, like Thermovape Evo. And the swirllj g hot air in the gif, I believe its supposed to be swirling the herbs around too, not just thin lines if air moving through parts of the load. So a loose pack will be very necessary I imagine
lwien
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, for a vaporizer manufacturer to make comparable performance claims without fully knowing the performance parameters of those vapes that they are comparing against is inexcusable.
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