Discontinued The Grasshopper

OF

OF

Well-Known Member
pakalolo said:
Beta testing is done in a controlled manner else it's useless. Beta testers are obliged to abuse the product as well as use it, and report accurately exactly what they did and what the outcome was. Based on the lessons of beta-testing, a developer is prepared to modify the product prior to release. None of this applies to backers. Releasing a product that hasn't been fully tested does not make your customers beta testers, it makes them angry.
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Excellent. Very well put.

I while I'm most used to the model where there's also a Beta Release (Production builds the run by the documentation released), sometimes Beta testing is done by Engineering. Good point. In such cases a Pilot run becomes the only test of the design really?

But the real gem is at the end (isn't that often the case?), a premature production release doesn't make for a Beta Test........ Love it! Tanks, Pak.

OF
 
JoeMama

JoeMama

Well-Known Member
So it all appears here that we are white knuckling the ride towards their release date. Reading some of this stuff is disappointing - I did preorder the GH just a few days ago. I want them to succeed (and I want a cool product!).

As an engineer myself who's worked in hi-tech avionic and commercial electronics manufacturing, I frequently found that the mechanical engineering/CAD side threw in more monkey wrenches than the electronics did! And this GH thingy is virtually entirely a mechanical micro-machine.

I hope for they're own sake they have patent-like protection, because if they collapse trying to get these out, eventually someone will give us the better mouse trap we've been waiting for.

But I want it now!! :rockon:
 
nonbeliever

nonbeliever

Well-Known Member
kingfisher said:
Can you speak more to their past experience? I'm just curious..

Maybe they truly have little manufacturing experience. Yet any engineer who has worked in product design should have dfma, design for manufacturability and assembly, down.
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Bird Aerospace

I believe this is what they were doing before Hopper Labs: http://birduas.com/

My take on reviewing this site is a company that does bespoke development - really high tech stuff - firmware/software/hardware....
 
CarolKing

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
I have never read anywhere whether Hopper Labs had beta testing. I would imagine there was some sort of testing. I guess too many units sent out as beta testers the company maybe felt they were waisting profits. Larger numbers of beta testing is important but the folks that are the first buyers maybe are the testers?

I have been closely reading all the info that the new buyers are reporting. First impressions are very important with a new product . Customers get turned off and go elsewhere and then become uninterested in the product. I'm hoping that doesn't happen here. Many people have been waiting for this fantastic new vaporizer and told unlike any other.

This product has been hyped up to the hilt. People are expecting something absolutely wonderful I sure hope that happens.
 
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zymos

zymos

Well-Known Member
Is there any evidence that they actually built a single thing shown on that site?

And I'm sorry, but I just have to: "Trevor has an exceptional understanding of engineering and flight systems, as well as startup management experience and a passion for business."

It reminds me of my 18 year old sons resume- yeah, you know a little about that, but calling yourself an "Expert" in it...?
 
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nonbeliever

nonbeliever

Well-Known Member
zymos said:
Is there any evidence that they actually built a single thing shown on that site?

And I'm sorry, but I just have to: "Trevor has an exceptional understanding of engineering and flight systems, as well as startup management experience and a passion for business."

It reminds me of my 18 year old sons resume- yeah, you know a little about that, but calling yourself an "Expert" in it...?
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To Trevor's credit - he has passed Startup 101 pretty well. They've designed a truly interesting product, he's raised a lot of equity-free cash, and has a driven a virally successful (aka hyped) demand for the product he is looking to get in market- how many pages of commentary about it exist on FC, how many backer units, secondary units backers purchased (not reflected in Indiegogo) and pre-orders - several thousand? That's some pretty good startup skills - even for an engineering kind of guy. The problems they would appear to be facing are the next phase the ability to translate that success into production and delivery (a real/viable company) - and that's where the start up skills no longer help you. The wildcatting of start up is a different skill than delivering enmasse - the holiday and early backers are likely being their "pilot" production phase - as they learn.
 
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OF

OF

Well-Known Member
CarolKing said:
I have never read anywhere whether Hopper Labs had beta testing. I would imagine there was some sort of testing. I guess too many units sent out as beta testers the company maybe felt they were waisting profits.

This product has been hyped up to the hilt. People are expecting something absolutely wonderful I sure hope that happens.
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I agree with you. I sure didn't see any mention of it, and I was watching hopefully for those results. Instead what I think I saw was some serious rework of the concept on the way to the first prototype (the oven/cover reversed???). That prototype was sent out? At that point production parts were on order/in house?

Think about the clip problem. That came up late IMO, they were trying to build units to ship. Had Beta units been built with those same clips that would have been discovered and fixed, but instead it threw a wrench in the schedule, caused some rush shipments and scrapping of parts? It should not have delayed the schedule. Same as having folks trained to make them (along with the training information to make more.....) in place before now would not have impacted the schedule. Now that necessary training is at the expense of problem solving and fixing defective units as well as making shipments? Tough box, one I hope they work out of.

As you say, Lady, a lot of high expectations around. But if they can deliver on even part of them some folks will be mighty happy and think the wait worth it?

OF
 
K

kingfisher

Well-Known Member
I wasn't trying to condemn Trevor, hopper, or anyone on that team. Testing is an absolute must for new products. High or low tech. We do not know what has or hasn't been tested. As all I can find are proof of concept lab tests.

I commend these guys for going for it. They may have over hyped the product so I hope it delivers.

As an engineer I almost want to volunteer my time to help them solve these problems. As I think technical resources may be lacking as the founders are required to perform other disciplines. Maybe it would help free up their time. Any way that's how much appreciation I have for their work.

I do not see the technologies used in vaporizers as high tech. Even the elevape with its breath sensor and optical sensor is not high tech. Yeah its the highest, lol, tech for vapes but no where near today's tech.
 
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
kingfisher said:
I wasn't trying to condemn Trevor, hopper, or anyone on that team. Testing is an absolute must for new products. High or low tech. We do not know what has or hasn't been tested. As all I can find are proof of concept lab tests.

I commend these guys for going for it. They may have over hyped the product so I hope it delivers.

As an engineer I almost want to volunteer my time to help them solve these problems. As I think technical resources may be lacking as the founders are required to perform other disciplines. Maybe it would help free up their time. Any way that's how much appreciation I have for their work.

I do not see the technologies used in vaporizers as high tech. Even the elevape with its breath sensor and optical sensor is not high tech. Yeah its the highest, lol, tech for vapes but no where near today's tech.
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Excellent post. I agree in most if not all details.

I don't, however, think the skills needed to organize such efforts are at all uncommon. They are well known, widely practiced, although as another poster points out not all the time. "Wildcatting" I think he called it? Fun and appropriate term I think. Descriptive. You're a hero if you win, but have serious potential downside risks. Guys that 'know the drill' are all over because in a Darwinian way they survive. Help is available locally I'm sure, even if the hour is quite late.

I agree, vapes ain't Rocket Science. But making things to established, proven documentation is 'money in the bank' if the product is good (popular) and the numbers right.

We're not there yet, but hopefully are moving that way?

OF
 
flotntoke

flotntoke

thoroughly vaped
pakalolo said:
I am all for improving access to GHL for warranty issues, but again, I see no reason whatsoever that they would (or should) provide special treatment for FC members.
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I guess there could be other places on the web, or even extensive word of mouth out there, but screwing up with a vaporizer and topping it off with not making sure FC members are taken care of seems to me it could be the kiss of death in this industry. And, not like they aren't receiving pecks on the cheek regularly, anyway.

I'm sure there are many vapers out there who have never heard of FC, but would guess most people researching any vape online are going to make it through here at some point - whether they create an account or not. It's not like we're talking about some $50 vape someone may pick up on impulse at an LHS. Bad ju-ju here, combined with the failure rate that seems to be occurring (presumably to new owners outside the FC community, too) on top of all the issues up to now - failed promises and the rest - looks like a recipe for disaster.

I'm not too sure about that 20% failure figure, either. I know if I was bailing water from a sinking ship as fast as these guys must be right about now I may "let it slip out" to someone I knew would report it here that my failure rate was less than half what it actually was. And, not saying the ship will definitely sink in the end, just that I'm sure they are doing all they can to keep things afloat as well as they can in what seems to be pretty rough seas. At some point there is going to have to be some good news on the horizon, or they won't make it. The push for more pre-orders (and more capital) as part of the recent update - especially while ignoring known issues - seems to indicate they're still taking on water faster than they can bail. Who other than them really has any idea if they can keep it up through October - or whatever the latest projected mass ship date now is or will be moved to?

Really hope all backers and pre-orderers get their GH's soon, and they deliver all as promised and more, but I'm glad I sat back on this one. Too many other great vapes out there and other ways to spend my money than to deal with the frustration of this ongoing mess - threats of having to pay more for this one in the future or not. If I was an early backer waiting almost two years now with all this continued nonsense, I'd feel like I was owed more than a functioning GH at that discounted price to pay for the frustration just to here - let alone what would be added by receiving a bad unit or two. But, that's just me.

Cynical take on all this? Maybe. But probably a good bit more realistic than a lot of the blind optimism I've seen in this thread. Good luck! I'll continue vaping along while we wait for the rest to play out.

:popcorn:
 
K

kingfisher

Well-Known Member
zymos said:
I've done a bit of crowd funding, and there is nothing inherent to it that backers are necessarily going to be beta testers.
I have one device where the software used with it is still in beta after a year, but it's entirely functional and bug free, they just haven't added all the features to it they've planned on.
I've looked at (but not joined) many campaigns that have had levels that were explicitly titled beta- you reveive yours before regular backers. If you go that way, you are literally a beta tester- lots of people like to do that, but they DECIDE to that.

IMO, using your backers as beta testers against their will is not cool. I don't feel like, as backers, we have much right to complain that things are taking too long- that's the nature of the game. But we sure as hell have the right to complain about getting malfunctioning and even dangerous devices.

(Just to be straight in the terminology, "pre-orders" are not "backers", they are essentially like any other purchaser of anything, but paid in advance to reserve a spot. But none of those have shipped yet, and probably won't for quite a while)
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This thing went crazy. Glad someone got the weird humor. I never meant to imply we're beta testers. Factually it doesn't sound like we were meant to be. I did mean though that the current situation feels like that's how it's been.
 
kingfisher,
zymos

zymos

Well-Known Member
HillaryClinton said:
Yeah that would sorta get me mad and stressed hope they sound a ounce with the next replacement :razz:.
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Just another day in Grasshopper Land....

I thought/hoped I would have stashed away my Solo by now. Oh well.

@kingfisher , sure, it's like how with software these days, "beta" has come to be just a synonym for publicly released software that still has some bugs and you are frustrated with it cause they didn't test it enough.
But then, what can you expect, when huge companies like Apple release open betas to thousands and thousands of people....?
 
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Vapetrees

Vapetrees

Vaped Out
flotntoke said:
I guess there could be other places on the web, or even extensive word of mouth out there, but screwing up with a vaporizer and topping it off with not making sure FC members are taken care of seems to me it could be the kiss of death in this industry. And, not like they aren't receiving pecks on the cheek regularly, anyway.

I'm sure there are many vapers out there who have never heard of FC, but would guess most people researching any vape online are going to make it through here at some point - whether they create an account or not. It's not like we're talking about some $50 vape someone may pick up on impulse at an LHS. Bad ju-ju here, combined with the failure rate that seems to be occurring (presumably to new owners outside the FC community, too) on top of all the issues up to now - failed promises and the rest - looks like a recipe for disaster.

I'm not too sure about that 20% failure figure, either. I know if I was bailing water from a sinking ship as fast as these guys must be right about now I may "let it slip out" to someone I knew would report it here that my failure rate was less than half what it actually was. And, not saying the ship will definitely sink in the end, just that I'm sure they are doing all they can to keep things afloat as well as they can in what seems to be pretty rough seas. At some point there is going to have to be some good news on the horizon, or they won't make it. The push for more pre-orders (and more capital) as part of the recent update - especially while ignoring known issues - seems to indicate they're still taking on water faster than they can bail. Who other than them really has any idea if they can keep it up through October - or whatever the latest projected mass ship date now is or will be moved to?

Really hope all backers and pre-orderers get their GH's soon, and they deliver all as promised and more, but I'm glad I sat back on this one. Too many other great vapes out there and other ways to spend my money than to deal with the frustration of this ongoing mess - threats of having to pay more for this one in the future or not. If I was an early backer waiting almost two years now with all this continued nonsense, I'd feel like I was owed more than a functioning GH at that discounted price to pay for the frustration just to here - let alone what would be added by receiving a bad unit or two. But, that's just me.

Cynical take on all this? Maybe. But probably a good bit more realistic than a lot of the blind optimism I've seen in this thread. Good luck! I'll continue vaping along while we wait for the rest to play out.

:popcorn:
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I just don't even know what to say anymore, when I ordered I didn't expect it to turn out this way. Good thing I have other vaporizers but I may cancel my order.
 
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vapebuddy13

vapebuddy13

Your resident Super Hero
zymos said:
I'm in it for the long run, BECAUSE I have other vaporizers.
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+1.... mainly bc of all the times Ive went to fire up my Haze and thought "Man, the gh would come in clutch right now" if I had a dollar for every time I thought that Id have recoop'd my $ by the time I actually get my GH
 
lovecrush

lovecrush

http://goo.gl/EsKJzJ
vapebuddy13 said:
+1.... mainly bc of all the times Ive went to fire up my Haze and thought "Man, the gh would come in clutch right now" if I had a dollar for every time I thought that Id have recoop'd my $ by the time I actually get my GH
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More like you would have the entire 350k they got in the campaign lol
 
JoeMama

JoeMama

Well-Known Member
zymos said:
And I'm sorry, but I just have to: "Trevor has an exceptional understanding of engineering and flight systems, as well as startup management experience and a passion for business."

It reminds me of my 18 year old sons resume- yeah, you know a little about that, but calling yourself an "Expert" in it...?
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Well, Mr. Vita is on Linkdn, and it's quite a scant profile: His degree is in "Environmental Science", and "Exercise and Health"... noble pursuits, certainly, but... Nor is there any business experience listed other than Bird and another green consulting venture in which he lists himself as the owner.

There are several Matthew Most's that appear on Linkdn, but without photos it's impossible to tell..... anyway, I'll bet my arse that while Matthew is the brainchild of GH, he is the guy we should send good vibes out for! I can imagine the stress and sweat he gives up behind every tiny thing concerning the design and producibility of the GH.

I do wish these boys much success.
 
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