Discontinued The Grasshopper

[biohacker]

yet when you pay good amount of money you expect to receive long lasting product.

Not too many portables as expensive as S&B, and their warranty is only 2 years. The Crafty has a track record for reliability that leaves much to be desired. Great service for those first two years, but after that you're very likely looking at an expensive brick or repair.

And this product is only going to last as long as the company...so lifetime really has to be taken with a grain of salt. Apparently Herbalizer almost tanked after startup/growth issues and internal company struggles. Vapexhale is another. And speaking of Vapexhale, those with the previous Cloud models that died, were SOL with the exception of a discount on the new product (EVO). So even within the same company, the warranty meant nothing because manufacturing changed. These companies seem to be able to do anything they want and get away with it. They just say, sorry it's not our fault!

 

[GreenHopper]

This just landed in my inbox:

Blog - New Products for January


Check out our latest blog post about our new product offerings! Learn about our new custom finished Ti Grasshopper and a cleaning vial.



With batteries back in stock, last week was big for shipping. Over 700 units headed to customers, and we are expecting another large block to go out in the next couple days. Be sure to keep an eye out for an address confirmation if you have an existing order. Please note that there will be a price increase on Feb 1 as we move closer to the end of pre-orders.



Have an idea for a blog post or have a usage question you would like us to answer? Email blog@grasshoppervape.com with your suggestions.

Hopper Labs

===================================================

Guess the cleaning aid is the 'Cleaning Vial' @biohacker was referring to in post #14320:

Not the mouthpiece tool, takey aparty type thingamabob (official title) that I was hoping for.

Also it looks like they have about 7 of the heat treated Hoppers ready to go.

I'm not so sure about those myself, especially at an additional $125, I get they are custom singed but that's a big uplift in cost for an effect that quite frankly looks a bit shit in the photo. Maybe they look awesome in real life in the hand, maybe.

 

[slcbdco]

Now you can get a grasshopper shipped immedialtly! Now with tie-dye!

https://www.grasshoppervape.com/store/product/heat-treated-titanium/

 

[biohacker]

And my investment in HL stocks goes up on Feb.1st! I have 4 of them!

 

[Lou Taylor]

I get around 65-75% when swapping after two bowls. If I drain them all the way then around 60%. I usually wait till there cooled until I stick them on charge, but the other day I stuck a hot one in while the other side was charging. It read 56% but went back up to 59% as it cooled down and before the other battery had finished charging. GHB2 for ref.

So am I understanding that one can ONLY charge the GH battery with their charger? I'm still waiting for my ss model but ordered extra batteries on the thinking I would be able to swap out as needed. Is this not the case?
Thanks!

 

[GreenHopper]

Yep, I think maybe .1g and the ABV was all a glorious medium dark brown! I need to take a huge breathe in order to get the air out for a hit that huge. I swear my lung capacity is so massive not only from athletics, but also from vaporizing! I think from now on i'll start splitting those hits into a few, although whenever I "shotgun" like in the vid, I get super medicated!

Tried this the other night, i.e. clearing the bubblers (MFLB Orbiter) chamber each time it fills. It definitely resulted in me getting a bigger hit, lost my whole Saturday to it

Charge plugging order... Does it matter? Seems to according to some posts here.

Here are some expert answers:
Summary if you don't care to read -- They don't think order makes much difference.

http://electronics.stackexchange.co...ng-wall-outlet-or-cell-phone-an/101686#101686

But the GH magnetic connector is not like a standard usb connection. My lights flash sometimes just by touching side of GH body. I know the experts say order should not make a difference, but I use "count-down timers." Leave them physically plugged into power strip, so you avoid the plugging effort.

Attach magnetic charger to GH after use, then press "start" button on timer. (I use usb charging port always plugged into countdown timer) Easy, and follows recommended plug order of charging given by S&B at least -- to attach usb charger cable to vape first, and then connect to mains.

This one is good for half hour Hopper charging after each home session.
http://a.co/jdSe2k3

I use this one for one hour charging of Mighty:
http://a.co/4Vlp8hs

I have no idea if order matters, but these timers are cheap and easy to use. Since they countdown and turn off, there's little overcharging, which may lead to early battery life degradation. Another possible bonus to using stock mag charger after every use: no opening and battery swapping stress, exposing threads. Yet another reason to own two Hoppers. One in use, other charging.

Recently I've been using my hopper with the OEM charger (v1 still). I just leave it plugged in all the time and disconnect to refill or take a hit. Otherwise it goes back on the magnetic charger. This is also mostly to avoid unscrewing the backend needlessly and if I'm going to hammer a battery I may as well stick with the one and see how it's affected.

I've noticed about 30% of the time I have to disconnect the cable from the UL approved USB charger.

I know exactly the type of timer plug you are talking about, I use them for fans and stuff, they are great, UK Version: 'Energy saving countdown timer switch socket with remote wire, rundown auto power off 3,6,10hr, conserve electricity' just ordered another for my Hopper charger, more so I don't leave it plugged in charging all the time (fire safety an all). Great idea, can't believe I didn't think of that!

I should be getting my Grey Ti today back from Warranty.

As I've said that my raw Ti backend is really feeling gritty and shitty, with play in the motion as well; I have also been disappointed in the performance (ie, therefore I've associated the poor performance with those mechanical symptoms).

Well, I think I was wrong - not about the fact that if feels like shit to use, but rather because I did this thing after getting the sense that the backend CONTACT just didn't "look" as clean as can be - in spite of an ISO rub. I used DeToxit Gold. Just here, nowhere else. You do not wipe this off, by the way (unless you're totally overdoing it).

And Holy COW what a difference it made. The backend still mechanically acts poorly, but I immediately heard the Hopper clicking more loudly (first time in a week in spite of cleanings with ISO and Blu Tack.

My conclusion about cleaning is that without a dedicated de-oxidizing procedure on certain parts at some point, the unit will flake out and you will annoy everyone in your life being grumpy because Mr. Hopper isn't feeling well. So, my raw Ti will still go back to GHL because I'm specifically asking them to make that dial not feel like such crap, and I hope they don't give me the "It's performing to spec" line. Especially now that I have the new dark grey backend that feels like a fine piece of engineering jewelry!

Not bothered with DeOxit before but my Green Ti has never felt like it hit as hard as my Purple so I'm gonna give it a go. BTW it's £31.68 ($38.13) on www.amazon.co.uk, is it normally this pricey?

This is giving me the impression that GH batts like to be used and charged as often as possible(pretty sure standard for all li-ion batts). I'm guessing they don't like to sit around for too long either, so if you're not using your Hopper on a consistent basis and want to keep your batts on max juice capabilities you should consider dry cycling(use/charge) them every so often.

This is another reason why I switched back to using the OEM charger, I figured the batteries would be happier and last longer if I kept them topped up.

My Usage Style:

At home I now use the hopper once every 2 hours from about 17:00-18:00 until 02:00-03:00 [about 8-11 hrs].

• I disconnect from magnetic cable
• load up to 2/3rds full, preferably using @Ratchett funnel and stand
• leave it on T5 (always)
• click on
• place on MFLB Orbiter
• take huge breath in, then breath all out and then small primer breath in before beginning draw
• rip slow for 5 seconds then begin to speed up until it hits back of throat
• then click off whilst continuing end of draw for 3-5 more seconds
• then lift from MFLB Orbiter to clear
• then immediately exhale huge cloud
• then empty chamber into AVB pot, including using small brush to clean out bowl and mouthpiece
• then collapse on couch under blanket
• then get ridiculously comfy
• then realise I can't find TV remote.... EVERY TIME!!!

 

[GreenHopper]

So am I understanding that one can ONLY charge the GH battery with their charger? I'm still waiting for my ss model but ordered extra batteries on the thinking I would be able to swap out as needed. Is this not the case?
Thanks!

You can swap out the batteries and charge them on an external charger such as an X-TAR or Nitecore (examples are single battery devices but the larger devices for 2, 4 or 6, or more batteries will work as well).

 

[JoeMama]

Thx bio.

Agreed on including ANY additional tools that are needed for regular maintenance. It's pretty bunk to buy something new, and out of the box you need to buy additional things to make the new thing you just bought seem like new. Going to a company with an issue (before the device is even used) & to be told "oh sorry, our negligence, just go buy this extra thing and fix it yourself" is Grade A Weak. Typical Hopper Labs behavior.

Regardless of how cheap the tweezers are and how little the fix is.

To be fair, GHL never recommends taking the screen out. In your case, however, they should've kissed your ass a little bit, IMO, and sent out a NEW MP and asked you to return the old one. Case close, everyone's happy.

Now you can get a grasshopper shipped immedialtly! Now with tie-dye!

https://www.grasshoppervape.com/store/product/heat-treated-titanium/

Oh, and it's only $100 more!! Methinks they needed a higher-ticket item to make up for some losses from the problems. I like that little glass jar though. Although like others have said, I soak it weekly for an hour or so and it's always minty fresh.

It remains a perpetual frustration to find oneself starting a fresh chamber on a battery that isn't quite ready for a charge, and also having to finish a chamber with a freshly charged battery.... and every combination of these states in-between. I really wish the battery design issue was better than it is.
If GHL ever comes up with a way to make a (new) product with similar stealth and 50% more life per charge, I'd bite.

....

Not bothered with DeOxit before but my Green Ti has never felt like it hit as hard as my Purple so I'm gonna give it a go. BTW it's £31.68 ($38.13) on www.amazon.co.uk, is it normally this pricey?

Amazon USA shows a price between $17 and $23 USD, so, yeah, I'd say that is NOT normal.

Hey @biohacker , for a moment I'd thought we had a GHL representative on our forum! Dang!

 

[duff]

If GHL ever comes up with a way to make a (new) product with similar stealth and 50% more life per charge, I'd bite.

Agreed

 

[whatitdew]

Just wanted to say Respek on the post time @duff

 

[GreenHopper]

Amazon USA shows a price between $17 and $23 USD, so, yeah, I'd say that is NOT normal.

Cool, thanks for the check. On ebay.co.uk they are going for £22, looks like they are imported, I'm good with that price. Will report back if my Green Hopper decides to leap into high gear.

Hey @biohacker , for a moment I'd thought we had a GHL representative on our forum! Dang!

Defo not a HL rep bud, just registered after having Pre ordered a Green Ti Hopper. Didn't realise at the time I was going to be waiting a year and be a beta tester. In the same way I guess the KickStarters didn't realise they were gonna be alpha testers.

After joining the FC forum I realised fairly quickly what was going on and figured out I was indeed going to be waiting a while to be a beta tester. Then @VapeFiend.com stocked some early Pre orders and I snatched one of them.

I was blown away by the device, it was a two and a half week bliss. Then I frickin' lost the thing on holiday.
But I had tried it, and loved it, and knew it was the vape I wanted. So I ordered another Ti (The Purple Ti) to tide me over during warranties and two SS for some friends.

Even after all the bullshit deadlines and ambiguous release versions, losing the thing, the warranties and design limitations I'm still a happy hopper user. I like the device, it hits how I want it to (one hitter), it's my daily driver and it's portable.

It remains a perpetual frustration to find oneself starting a fresh chamber on a battery that isn't quite ready for a charge, and also having to finish a chamber with a freshly charged battery.... and every combination of these states in-between. I really wish the battery design issue was better than it is.
If GHL ever comes up with a way to make a (new) product with similar stealth and 50% more life per charge, I'd bite.

Regarding the batteries, it would be nice if they didn't degrade so quickly but I'm somewhat unaffected as I use my unit mostly at home mostly on the cable (see previous post for more detailed usage example).

@Joel W. Had a play with making a 4x 18650 pack to GrassHopper Power adapter thingy:

Always thought that this 'Hopper Power Adapter' coupled with an AC->DC 3.7v power brick connected using a bog standard barrel plug would suit my needs quite well.

Unfortunately with a 35-45 watt heater (whatever the real average running wattage is, I can't remember) you aren't going to get much out of a 750mah battery. For starters you only ever really drain it by about 40% to stop the battery dieing. That doesn't leave much [about 300mah], the design definitely took a hit on power storage, it's the size of a pen.

On the other hand I tend to look at it as if it was designed to swap batteries, and I don't mind that. Removable batteries was part of the reason I bought the thing. I just go with one battery per bowl, I'm never outside away from a power socket (car, home) longer than 4x batteries (my 8 month old GHB1's) can cover me. Thats 8hrs for me, 1x huge rip every 2hrs or 1x medium rip every 1hr. Either style usually clears the bowl at T5 and gets the battery close enough to done that I'll want to swap it or charge it. To my head the difference is like smoking a whole spliff to myself that buzzes me out or only taking two tokes every hour or so to maintain a functioning high.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to double the battery capacity but HL aren't going to be inventing any new battery tech. We are going to have to wait until the big boys up the battery game:

Future batteries, coming soon: charge in seconds, last months and power over the air - http://www.pocket-lint.com/

GreenHopper
Not a 'Hopper Labs Rep' a customer just like you

 

[JoeMama]

@GreenHopper , you piqued my interest in exploring different ways to Hop regarding that "perpetual charge". I've wondered just how that would indeed affect the battery insofar as to how it would degrade (not just how fast it would degrade).

After the first 5 months of battery usage, I'd kept a single battery in play for a while. Admittedly it was because I was beginning to suspect my set of GHB1's of being "half as good as they used to be". The conundrum I faced was, What if I leave the house and intend on taking a few solid hits off the charger (i.e., Will that full-time battery take a nosedive on the second hit because it's been "spoiled" by being constantly charged)? I suppose putting in a healthy battery for vaping a fresh chamber fully would be SOP.

I've seen Joel's device, and I thought it was also a pretty nice idea... but honestly the idea if keeping a single sacrificial battery at full charge (for the while-at-home scenario) seems better.

 

[kato1234]

Cool, thanks for the check. On ebay.co.uk they are going for £22, looks like they are imported, I'm good with that price. Will report back if my Green Hopper decides to leap into high gear.




Defo not a HL rep bud, just registered after having Pre ordered a Green Ti Hopper. Didn't realise at the time I was going to be waiting a year and be a beta tester. In the same way I guess the KickStarters didn't realise they were gonna be alpha testers.

After joining the FC forum I realised fairly quickly what was going on and figured out I was indeed going to be waiting a while to be a beta tester. Then @VapeFiend.com stocked some early Pre orders and I snatched one of them.

I was blown away by the device, it was a two and a half week bliss. Then I frickin' lost the thing on holiday.
But I had tried it, and loved it, and knew it was the vape I wanted. So I ordered another Ti (The Purple Ti) to tide me over during warranties and two SS for some friends.

Even after all the bullshit deadlines and ambiguous release versions, losing the thing, the warranties and design limitations I'm still a happy hopper user. I like the device, it hits how I want it to (one hitter), it's my daily driver and it's portable.



Regarding the batteries, it would be nice if they didn't degrade so quickly but I'm somewhat unaffected as I use my unit mostly at home mostly on the cable (see previous post for more detailed usage example).

@Joel W. Had a play with making a 4x 18650 pack to GrassHopper Power adapter thingy:

Always thought that this 'Hopper Power Adapter' coupled with an AC->DC 3.7v power brick connected using a bog standard barrel plug would suit my needs quite well.

Unfortunately with a 35-45 watt heater (whatever the real average running wattage is, I can't remember) you aren't going to get much out of a 750mah battery. For starters you only ever really drain it by about 40% to stop the battery dieing. That doesn't leave much [about 300mah], the design definitely took a hit on power storage, it's the size of a pen.

On the other hand I tend to look at it as if it was designed to swap batteries, and I don't mind that. Removable batteries was part of the reason I bought the thing. I just go with one battery per bowl, I'm never outside away from a power socket (car, home) longer than 4x batteries (my 8 month old GHB1's) can cover me. Thats 8hrs for me, 1x huge rip every 2hrs or 1x medium rip every 1hr. Either style usually clears the bowl at T5 and gets the battery close enough to done that I'll want to swap it or charge it. To my head the difference is like smoking a whole spliff to myself that buzzes me out or only taking two tokes every hour or so to maintain a functioning high.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to double the battery capacity but HL aren't going to be inventing any new battery tech. We are going to have to wait until the big boys up the battery game:

Future batteries, coming soon: charge in seconds, last months and power over the air - http://www.pocket-lint.com/

GreenHopper
Not a 'Hopper Labs Rep' a customer just like you

I wonder if a lot of the problems people are having is because they are overtaxing the batteries I figure the batteries are only 8A at best and turning the GH on and leaving it run wide open they will get hot and will probably die quickly. Good link for new battery tech Thanks

 

[GreenHopper]

@GreenHopper , you piqued my interest in exploring different ways to Hop regarding that "perpetual charge". I've wondered just how that would indeed affect the battery insofar as to how it would degrade (not just how fast it would degrade).

After the first 5 months of battery usage, I'd kept a single battery in play for a while. Admittedly it was because I was beginning to suspect my set of GHB1's of being "half as good as they used to be". The conundrum I faced was, What if I leave the house and intend on taking a few solid hits off the charger (i.e., Will that full-time battery take a nosedive on the second hit because it's been "spoiled" by being constantly charged)? I suppose putting in a healthy battery for vaping a fresh chamber fully would be SOP.

I've seen Joel's device, and I thought it was also a pretty nice idea... but honestly the idea if keeping a single sacrificial battery at full charge (for the while-at-home scenario) seems better.

Yeh I know some folk would be up in arms at the idea of one GHB1 to one bowl. For me though I'm running a constant temp 5 usage with long rips mostly through water tools so I've always had problems getting much more than a single batt to bowl ratio. Sure there's enough left in the battery for a small hit, just like there is enough for a small hit from the AVB. But I know exactly what to expect from a fresh pack on a fresh battery and I like consistency, the AVB is always even and towards the darker shades.

Switching batteries each bowl was a major reason why I switched from my XTAR to the OEM charger, switching batts with every bowl was a pain. I haven't BluTacked my backend threads in almost 8 weeks, I haven't even checked them. The backend is cool about 80% of the time and never really goes beyond warm to the touch when it does heat up, it never gets uncomfortably hot.

The backend heating seemed to be something else that only kicked in on a low battery so I guess immediately charging the battery or swapping it out for a fresh one has somewhat alleviated that symptom.

The hard part of using the sacrificial battery technique is you need to have some idea of when you might need the additional batteries as you must not keep them on standby at full charge. This also means if you charge 4x for a planned 8 hrs away from mains then and only end up using two then you need to discharge/use the remaining two before putting them back into storage and switching back to the sacrificial battery. Basically it means you have to be with it when it comes to battery management.

I wonder if a lot of the problems people are having is because they are overtaxing the batteries I figure the batteries are only 8A at best and turning the GH on and leaving it run wide open they will get hot and will probably die quickly. Good link for new battery tech Thanks

I'm not so sure people are overtaxing the batteries, the hopper stops drawing power from the batteries well before their minimum discharge. That's why if you take a battery out of the hopper after the blinking red lights and place it in an external charger which displays capacity you'll see about 60% remaining.

I think (this is just my opinion) but the GHB1's were a first iteration manufacturing run and therefore quite expensive to produce. Instead of sorting the batteries into different qualities and discarding/selling off cheap those that were below par, HL used them all, they were under pressure to ship hoppers.

In a large corp like Samsung or LG the batteries produced will often yield a certain number of sub par specimens. These sub par batteries would go off to 3rd party resellers and get sold as rebranded lower quality batteries. HL don't have a market to sell the lower quality yield off to as their device is the only one that uses them. Thus the impetus would have been on reducing the rate of low quality batteries. GHB2's may well be a revision to the manufacturing process that yields more consistent high grade batteries and so HL's can afford to at least test and shelve the lower quality units. I doubt they ever trash the low quality ones, maybe it's possible for them to recycle the below par GHB2's, I dunno.

Again this is all supposition.

 

[biohacker]

Defo not a HL rep bud, just registered after having Pre ordered a Green Ti Hopper.

Naw, you misconstrued he was making fun of me selling out my VAS by becoming a hopperwhore! You know, official company avatar and all! Hop on!

 

[Bass Vaper]

Did you email hopper and ask them to include a pair of tweezers and this is the answer you got? ..typical Hopper Labs behaviour? Their warranty system is the best out of any vape manufacturer i've encountered. I noticed you've had a tough run in with faulty parts but now you're just fabricating stories/info. The screen is threaded so you just need to turn it with something. Two safety pins should do the trick.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'd caution you to do some research before throwing out accusations first though. "Now you're just" is a little unnecessary, there fella.

In my experience (of over a year dealing with them) Hopper Labs has been a piss poor company to deal with. Maybe I hold companies to higher standards than most, but I'm certainly not fabricating stories to make them look bad. They do that just fine on their own. As clearly evident by post after post after post of many other users.

Not trying to argue. You have your thoughts, I have mine. All good. Vape on.

 

[GreenHopper]

Naw, you misconstrued he was making fun of me selling out my VAS by becoming a hopperwhore! You know, official company avatar and all! Hop on!

Ha I didn't even notice you had changed your avatar, that's hilarious!

Sorry @JoeMama I did completely get the wrong end of the stick.

 

[huk_huk]

Yeh I know some folk would be up in arms at the idea of one GHB1 to one bowl. For me though I'm running a constant temp 5 usage with long rips mostly through water tools so I've always had problems getting much more than a single batt to bowl ratio.

On temp 5 through bubbler I can get up to 4 bowls with a new GHB1 battery (half full no restriced draw bowls). Are you filling it really full? Or maybe it's because I vape a whole bowl in one session this way less heat is wasted. But one bowl per battery sounds wrong/defect.

That's why if you take a battery out of the hopper after the blinking red lights and place it in an external charger which displays capacity you'll see about 60% remaining.

when the hopper is red blinking the batteries are not at 60% remaining. capacity is not easy to measure and most likely it shows a wrong value. Some of my Batteries show less than 2.5V when empty which is even lower than it should be (I guess because they are old)
edit: forget the less than 2.5V part I measured wrong and no empty battery is near me

 

[slcbdco]

Looks like the tie-dye grasshopper is popular, there's already only one left!

 

[Hjalmark]

@huk_huk
Hmm.. I got about 1 and 1/2 bowl on a battery on 5 through water but my hopper lasted a month and currently waiting for response from hopper lab warranty service

If mine was a defect then I can't wait to get a fully functioning one!

 

[JoeMama]

I wish we could know just exactly how GHL "runs diagnostics". The scenarios we all can come up with for actual use are myriad; so how does one quantify performance to know what is "acceptable".

Thinking out loud: Do they place a thermistor in the chamber with some modified MP and run the table on the T settings? It would be great if one of our own kind was able to do this, make a real test of Temperatures.

Because I think there is a lot of variation in reports of what we are able to get out of the Hopper.

If I ran on only T5, I think I would be able to toast a moderately full chamber, but by the time it was done, I wouldn't get much out of a fresh chamber while keeping the same battery in.

Can anyone testify here?

 

[biohacker]

I can get multiple bowls on T5 on a single battery......OR I can get 1 bowl....all depends on how I use it. Material, pack, dry vs water, hit sizes, etc. all play a factor.

It sounds to me that your runtime is a little short?

 

[moondog]

These companies seem to be able to do anything they want and get away with it. They just say, sorry it's not our fault!

I don't think you can limit this to vape companies. Remember, in the New World Odor (TM), "corporations are people, my friend" and they have way more rights than we human people do. They can do what they want and many of them are doing things way worse than these vape companies.

If GHL ever comes up with a way to make a (new) product with similar stealth and 50% more life per charge, I'd bite.

Sign me up!

As for the battery/bowl ratio question. I'm finding that I'm usually getting 2 bowls+ per battery running almost exclusively at 4.1 or 4.2. I don't mind swapping batteries mid-bowl.

Other random notes: My SS will be arriving back from the lab tomorrow after they failed to duplicate my "brief red light followed by no heat" syndrome. Caroline suspects it was the clicker switch pin out of place issue which corrected itself. We'll see.

My son was up visiting this weekend and he tried my hopper. One hit ripped off the top of his head. He was impressed.

For those with both a hopper and a Focus Pro with the stainless water tool adapter: The hopper mouthpiece condom fits PERFECTLY on the Focus stainless adapter to make a great water tool seal.

 

[Robob]

After cancelling my pre-order to see how things panned out it seems as tho GHL has (almost?) caught up on their orders?? its always hard to tell with their monthly updates as they have always been behind since i started getting them lol.
So has "beta" phase ended yet? from the past few pages I've read it seems as though we still have some kinks to work out, shame i was hoping to grab the one of the HT grasshoppers but don't have extra $$ to blow on a beta product at this moment unfortunately. The FF2 i picked up instead of GH has been treating me well.
Although VAS is starting to kick back in...

 

[Icon13]

Received October 7th. First body failure October 10th. 3rd body failed yesterday, sensor damage (again). I use mine multiple times daily. Performance has degraded on every body that I have received until they finally stopped working. To be honest, these guys have a big problem on their hands.