Obama's respons (to the F'ing raids in Cali this week)

[lwien]

So Vicki, in the real world situation, what do we do? Illegal alien brings in her 2 year old child into the emergency ward for a life saving procedure. Should we just turn them away and let the child die in the street?

We have a problem that we created. We had laws on the books that were never enforced, thereby making them non-existent. So now, we wake up and go...........oh oh. We created this mess, so how do we deal with it while still maintaing the high moral standards that we hold so dear?

 

[Vicki]

So Vicki, in the real world situation, what do we do? Illegal alien brings in her 2 year old child into the emergency ward for a life saving procedure. Should we just turn them away and let the child die in the street?

We have a problem that we created. We had laws on the books that were never enforced, thereby making them non-existent. So now, we wake up and go...........oh oh. We created this mess, so how do we deal with it while still maintaing the high moral standards that we hold so dear?

I said it before in this thread, if you can't come here legally, don't come at all. Cheating the system should not be rewarded, period. They are just likes thieves, stealing from the system, and they know they are doing it. It's disgusting. Yes, I am saying this from experience.

 

[WatTyler]

So it sounds to me like the kid dies?

 

[Vicki]

I'm so sick of that. I am not heartless. I was raised to pay my dues and work hard. Spongers piss me off, and I will never change my mind, no matter what you say. So, let's agree to disagree.

 

[hogleg]

I said it before in this thread, if you can't come here legally, don't come at all. Cheating the system should not be rewarded, period. They are just likes thieves, stealing from the system, and they know they are doing it. It's disgusting. Yes, I am saying this from experience.

so the child should die?

 

[Vicki]

The child should not have been brought here in the first place. Again, I say, I hate spongers. Let's agree to disagree.

lwien, you're right. We should start enforcing the laws. They are constantly busting business's here for hiring illegals. They fine the business and deport the illegals. It should be done a lot more, with much higher fines.

 

[WatTyler]

But the question that you should face is should the child be allowed to die? Not whether they should be here in the first place. I can agree wholeheartedly that legally they should not be there. That's a fact.

 

[Vicki]

But the question that you should face is should the child be allowed to die? Not whether they should be here in the first place. I can agree wholeheartedly that legally they should not be there. That's a fact.

No, treat the child. Then deport the parents and the child.

 

[lwien]

So we have 11 to 12 million illegal aliens living in the US. Could you just imagine living in a country where they rounded up 11 to 12 million people and loaded them up on boats and trains to be shipped back to their home countries, and of course, they would have to be put in camps before deportation.

The outrage and guilt of seeing something like this happen in the US would literally tear this country apart.

This really isn't a feasible solution.

 

[Vicki]

No way it could be done anyway, not that many people at once. They just have to go slowly, but continue to move forward. Enforce the laws that are on the books instead of looking the other way.

 

[WatTyler]

Vicki, will you take a quick look at this paper from the Harvard Latino Law Review:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584&#captchaSection
check the full paper, rather than the poor abstract.

This is an issue that there is so much political misinformation on. Illegal immigrants are an easy, popular vote winner- far less contentious than most of the other difficult political issues- and it helps politicians to paint a picture of the country going to ruin due to a common enemy. The economic truth is actually quite different.

 

[Vicki]

Vicki, will you take a quick look at this paper from the Harvard Latino Law Review:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584&#captchaSection
check the full paper, rather than the poor abstract.

This is an issue that there is so much political misinformation on. Illegal immigrants are an easy, popular vote winner- far less contentious than most of the other difficult political issues- and it helps politicians to paint a picture of the country going to ruin due to a common enemy. The economic truth is actually quite different.

I will go read it right now. However, I'm not talking about politics. I'm talking about people that knowingly break the law for their own personal gain, including taking jobs that could go to someone that desperately needs it. A lot of times they are paid under the table so their employer does not get caught. Thus, they pay no tax or social security benefits at all. They are accessing benefits, and I'd love to know how they are getting away with it. I'd also love to know how they are getting into colleges.

::going to read now::

 

[Vicki]

Copied and pasted from that paper: (proving my point that they are cheaters cheating the system. They should not be rewarded.)

In an effort to stop unauthorized workers from being hired, Congress
enacted the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986.141 This Act,
among other things, required employers to have all new employees prove
their identity and work authorization with speciªc documents.142 Congress
listed the Social Security card as an acceptable document evidencing proof
of work authorization.143 As a result of this mandatory obligation, there is
now widespread use of counterfeit Social Security cards among unauthorized
workers, making “it more common and easier than ever for undocumented
workers to enter and function in the U.S. labor market.”


***BTW, I'm still reading, this is a long paper!

Edit-another copy and paste

The working poor do not have the resources to
pay for these beneªts so they do not. Accordingly, other taxpayers who can
bear this burden do because they have the ability, and their sacriªce is relatively
less signiªcant. This method of cost allocation, or tax burden distribution
theory, has endured time and is generally perceived as fair.

Fair my ass!! They are illegal and I begrudge them every one of my tax dollars!!

Edit again-yet another copy and paste

Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy by
investing and consuming goods and services;5 ªlling millions of “essential
worker” positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity
and lower costs of goods and services;6 and making unrequited
contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs.

A lot of aliens work "under the table," and contribute nothing. They do nothing but take jobs from legal Americans that need those jobs. Especially now during the recession. I see it on the news here almost everyday. Another business busted for employing illegals and paying them under the table so they wont get caught.

Yet undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits, including food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid, federal housing programs, Supplemental Security Income, Unemployment Insurance,Social Security, Medicare, and the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

Yet, I know of many that do get benefits, and even go to college.

 

[jackmormon]

This thread is starting to hurt my feelings and I am pretty much anti illegal immigration. I live in a Southwest state and am very familiar with the situation.

My opinion is that thinking of illegal aliens as some sort of homogenous group with the same characteristics and behavior is borderline ...something I don't want to say...

The negatives of illegal immigration are the most visible and what we tend to focus on. Yes many illegal aliens game the system, many don't. The not so visible is what is really important. Without the illegal immigrant labor pool several key areas of the US economy would be seriously fucked. Especially agriculture, hospitality, food prep, food service, janitorial, construction, etc. If the government wanted to stop illegal immigration they would. The problem is the potential financial loss to campaign contributors will never allow this to happen in the current political climate. For the rest of us, illegal immigrant labor means we can buy 3 lbs of fresh strawberries for $4 during April instead of $10-12, cheap restaurants, etc.

The most interesting conversation I have ever had about immigration both legal and illegal was with a legal immigrant from Mexico who started a successful company, pays a shitload of taxes, and has spent the last 9 years and 6 figures on immigration attorneys trying to get legal immigration status for his wife who is still in Mexico.

Legal immigration to the USA (beyond specialized visas) is a royal pain in the ass.

Unfortunately, looking to government for the answer isn't going to help. USA Government is the problem, not the solution. Until businesses stop hiring illegals they will continue to come. Just like as long as their is demand for "controlled substances" they WILL be available. Simple economics.

 

[Venomous]

The negatives of illegal immigration are the most visible and what we tend to focus on. Yes many illegal aliens game the system, many don't. The not so visible is what is really important. Without the illegal immigrant labor pool several key areas of the US economy would be seriously fucked. Especially agriculture, hospitality, food prep, food service, janitorial, construction, etc. If the government wanted to stop illegal immigration they would. The problem is the potential financial loss to campaign contributors will never allow this to happen in the current political climate. For the rest of us, illegal immigrant labor means we can buy 3 lbs of fresh strawberries for $4 during April instead of $10-12, cheap restaurants, etc.

The most interesting conversation I have ever had about immigration both legal and illegal was with a legal immigrant from Mexico who started a successful company, pays a shitload of taxes, and has spent the last 9 years and 6 figures on immigration attorneys trying to get legal immigration status for his wife who is still in Mexico.

Had they addressed these issues in the late 70s and early 80s, this wouldn't even be an issue. Problem is, the floodgates were open and they came in droves across the borders. The agriculture sector were paying them under the table for a very long time and they were encouraged to tell their buddies to come across the border for work by the farmers. Now they rely on them because of 30 years of them in the industry working illegally and the market price for crops. I worked in Salinas CA, where a huge amount of fruits and vegetables are grownn and supplied around the west/Midwest. On my way to work on highway 101 while passing these farms I've come very close to hitting illegals running from INS agents who dart out in front of traffic. INS agents are stationed there for a reason.. So the farmers are still hiring illegals while ignoring employment laws.

40% of illegals got across the border smuggling drugs... Mainly marijuana and cocaine. Once they got across, they settled. There was a very good documentary about this I got on national geographic a couple years ago. The 40% number they felt was very conservative and believed it to be even higher. In the end, we give them aide and assistance. Working in various prisons in ca, the majority of the "border brothers" incarcerated we're caught smuggling drugs by local ca law enforcement. Ones caught by border patrol and ins serve time in federal facilities. There's over 30,000 illegal aliens serving prison sentences alone for drug smuggling in ca.

 

[vorrange]

The problem is complex and there is not a simple solution. I think Jackmormon touched an important part of the issue, there is a large part of the working force that is illegal and it would not be so dificult to go after those than it is to keep the borders under control.

There is an interest in keeping the situation in a stand still, if it was all bad the government would have done something more drastic than passing laws to adress the situation and try and control the problem.

Vicki, once again i understand your indignity with this whole situation. And of course there is lots of people who will take advantage for as long as they can, and find a way to go around it.
It is just the way it is. It has to do with survival and human nature.

If your life is shit and you can't do much more than beg or steal to survive, that is what many will do. And since everyone is different, there are those who will resort to those measures much more easily than others.

But i still agree with WatTyler when he says that there is enough wealth to be spread around and there lies the big injustice as far as im concerned.

It is all a matter of priorities and resource allocation, and it is all about economics.

There is no way they will all leave the US, even if a war started.

US is a case study about immigration. No other country has so many different people from so many different places, all your history has been about acceptance and all the american dream thing. This is something you are proud of and you should.

UK, France and Spain has immigration problems with communities from countries in north africa, US has problems with communities in Mexico. The common denominator is bad living conditions in their homeland and the search for a better life for them and their children.

Every economic crisis or war, brings forth immigration from the affected countries to the usually nearest countries where life opportunities are better. I don't believe people migrate because they can live of the government.. and i don't believe that people will leave just because they are told to.

The problem is there, prohibition never solved much when used alone. There should be enforcement of the law, but there should also be other social programs to help people fit in, and be able to contribute to the society they are in.

They don't pay because they can't pay. Either because they will be deported or just don't have the money to live and afford housing, food and education.

This is the problem, the choice that is given them is almost devoid of choice.

EDIT: Do you think it was their idea to smuggle drugs? Desperate people do stupid things. I have not seen the documentary, but it seems the blame is always on the messenger.
The same with the farmers.. They should not hire illegals to start with. Why do they do it? Because industrial farming as destroyed not just the soils but the profit margins of smaller farms. People have to see the root of the problems, not just the consequences of them.

 

[Venomous]

Well we can no longer afford the resources to help non us citizens. If the gov did a 180, decreased their military spending and priorities, thingswould be different. However as it stands, our military costs are insane. All of the bullshit funding the gov grants ridiculous programs that serve absolutely no true purpose continue to get funded. At this point, it's all about individual greed on the part of the politicians. None of them care about the future, only what's available for the taking right now. Look at all of the politicians who have become rich off oil as an example. We have giant us corps making big $ but avoiding taxes. GE is doing huge business in South America and globally in other countries right now according to a special on dateline NBC a few weeks ago. They too are huge offenders in the tax dodging.


So if the gov can't even control tax dodging, they certainly can't control illegal aliens. They have known for years the problems and continue to do nothing about it. Arizona is simply enforcing immigration laws the gov has failed to enforce.

 

[Tea Party]

...public housing tenants have been the recipients of many abuses....way...way..before obama showed up on the scene...see what clinton did, regean did, nixon..the abuse of the poor in this country is a national pastime...

Section 8 needs tobe done away with. I can't fucking fathom how nice some of the condos are that are subsidized for certain Americans.

There are contries that spends more per capita on their military than we do....

 

[vorrange]

Exactly Venomous, greedy people will continue to exist and desperate people will continue to take advantage of what they can.

What are we to do then? In the 60's, there was a big revolution in terms of values, against war and with a different take on the drug policy as i am sure other things i don't know about. But they were disregarded as hippies and that was that. Society ate the propaganda against them, and to this day cannabis users are seen as stoners.

Meanwhile, the wars continued, the government continued to implement its foreign policies where they could take advantage of the area. I have not seen the US invade somalia to stop hunger or Haiti when there was that big natural disaster that trashed the country. But when there is oil, there is a US military somewhere near.

I think it is time to pull back and adress real issues inside your own borders, and it is the US citizens that need to come out and say "i'm sick of this shit".

I am not updated in the costs involved but i bet the cost of the War on Iraq in 91 and Afghanistan alone would be enough to reform the entire health system for the better and there would still be enough to lower the costs for the average american to get their kids through college.

But not investing in War would leave a lot of corporations hanging, and this is the issue. The power is behind the government, but at the same time, it has infiltrated the government. And it is the same in the US, as in Portugal, Mexico or China.

I am sure there are countries who spend more per capita then US, like North Korea, where a delusional dictator keeps his nuclear program and army while the majority of his population is dying of famine.
The countries with better quality of life are the ones where the balance between rich and poor are less pronounced and although the people pay a lot of taxes, the government works for the people and not against it and also, have lower military spendings. Countries like Iceland, Norway or Denmark to name a few.

 

[Tea Party]

The government works for the 47% who don't pay income taxes.

 

[Venomous]

Section 8 needs tobe done away with. I can't fucking fathom how nice some of the condos are that are subsidized for certain Americans.

There are contries that spends more per capita on their military than we do....

We have some friends that ended up in section 8 housing after they were foreclosed on. Since he is a military veteran, he got to go front of the line. It took about 2 months to get their place.What I found so amazing was, that house is over 3500'sq foot and really really nice. The banks are having no luck selling houses, so now they are subsidizing foreclosed properties. The only bizarre thing is, there's a large piece of paper in the window that states the bank owns this property and it's being rented by subsidized housing. It has to remain in the window.

 

[Venomous]

Exactly Venomous, greedy people will continue to exist and desperate people will continue to take advantage of what they can.

What are we to do then? In the 60's, there was a big revolution in terms of values, against war and with a different take on the drug policy as i am sure other things i don't know about. But they were disregarded as hippies and that was that. Society ate the propaganda against them, and to this day cannabis users are seen as stoners.

Meanwhile, the wars continued, the government continued to implement its foreign policies where they could take advantage of the area. I have not seen the US invade somalia to stop hunger or Haiti when there was that big natural disaster that trashed the country. But when there is oil, there is a US military somewhere near.

I think it is time to pull back and adress real issues inside your own borders, and it is the US citizens that need to come out and say "i'm sick of this shit".

I am not updated in the costs involved but i bet the cost of the War on Iraq in 91 and Afghanistan alone would be enough to reform the entire health system for the better and there would still be enough to lower the costs for the average american to get their kids through college.

But not investing in War would leave a lot of corporations hanging, and this is the issue. The power is behind the government, but at the same time, it has infiltrated the government. And it is the same in the US, as in Portugal, Mexico or China.

I am sure there are countries who spend more per capita then US, like North Korea, where a delusional dictator keeps his nuclear program and army while the majority of his population is dying of famine.
The countries with better quality of life are the ones where the balance between rich and poor are less pronounced and although the people pay a lot of taxes, the government works for the people and not against it and also, have lower military spendings. Countries like Iceland, Norway or Denmark to name a few.

Very good points. I believe if America wanted to stop illegal immigration, they could by keeping our military here and placing them on the border to protect it. This would also clampdown on terrorism by strengthing the weak links in the whole process. We have enough oil here. What we have an abundance of here is natural gas and I'm very surprised after 15 years, we still aren't using it as fuel for cars. It would be so cheap too.

I have a friend I grew up in England with who's originally from denmark. His family moved back when we finished grade school. We kept in touch and did a lot of online gaming for many years. What blew me away is how denmark was supplying fast ass fiber Internet to every home without charging for it. They were ahead of everyone with fiber Internet so early within y2k. Also, their college is free. Sure, Denmark has a high tax rate, but their gov chooses to use money and invest in global structure and educating their younger generations.

 

[Tea Party]

What percentage of the people from denmark pay income tax? do they allow illegals to get the same if not more rights than tax payers?

 

[vorrange]

I am willing to bet that the majority of people in denmark pay income tax and it is about 50% of the gross income i believe.
It is hard to compare just that because all their policy has been different, they have a large percentage of immigrants who settled there, when i was there i met danish whose fathers were from places as different as puerto rico and thailand or sri lanka.
From what i believe, they absorb the immigrants into the working force, giving them benefits but at the same time asking them to contribute equally in return.
Of course, the society is more advanced and people generally don't have the take advantage mentality and that spans throughout their society and reflects in a lot of areas. I am sure that this is not possible overnight, it has to allow for a transition period.
And of course, the numbers are different in terms of immigration than in the US, but the policy was different from the start and this seems to be part of the issue. Non-US people, myself included, tend to see the US in a bit of a controling way. Like that strict mom who does not let you do anything so you can behave and be a good boy but then fails to see the signs of trouble because the child learned how to do things going around his mom, the US government is always quick on the trigger when it comes to prohibit something for the purpose of controling an outcome.

In this case, the solution for the illegals is keep them ilegal, harden the control mechanisms and stick with it no matter what. In the meantime, the illegals forge Social Security Cards, transport drugs across the border, get arrested, and flood the jails, causing more money to be spent because of them on top of the problems with them abusing social care and tax payers dollars. IT is clear that despite all the misery and humiliation they might face, it is still better than being poor in Mexico and they would rather be in the US.
Like the war on drugs, this seems yet another failed endeavour..

Venomous, you could place a man every inch of the border, and they would still come by sea. This is what keeps being forgotten, people will always find a way. Mexicans will invent new ways to smuggle drugs, and new ways to profit from illegal imigration. You can't clamp out a country as you can't expect people to stop using drugs just because they are illegal.

I think a better approach would be to:

1-Lower the requirements for naturalization/legalization (without announcing it to the world to prevent a wave of immigrants all of the sudden)
2-Regulate illegal labour (this means responsabilization of the employers with the risk of fine, business shutdown or jail depending on the case, because, lets face it, usually the problem is on the illegals cause they get deported and the employer just gets another ilegal.)
3-Keep them accountable, legalization is given at the price of proper citizenship, meaning contributing for the tax dollars. And also, and at first, have a three strikes law but at the third strike they are deported and each strike is a failure to pay their taxes.

This is just of the top of my head, and probably some of it is already being done or billed but not enforced properly.

The government works for the 47% who don't pay income taxes.

Correction: the government works for the 1% who funds their elections. The other 52% who pay taxes are just being good americans.

 

[Tea Party]

So what does that make the other 47% societal leaches?