Obama's respons (to the F'ing raids in Cali this week)

[lwien]

Mormon have more children than Catholics.

Another blanket, erroneous statement.

This happens a LOT on both the right and the left and that is, that emotions get so tied into the debate, that blanket statements that are inherently false get thrown about like candy and whatever credibility that one has, gets thrown out the window as well.

I was raised catholic and so was my wife. At no time were we told to have a bucket load of children.

But you are told not to use birth control, are you not, or am I mistaken? This was my point in my previous post.

 

[Venomous]

Another blanket, erroneous statement.

This happens a LOT on both the right and the left and that is, that emotions get so tied into the debate, that blanket statements that are inherently false get thrown about like candy and whatever credibility that one has, gets thrown out the window as well.



But you are told not to use birth control, are you not, or am I mistaken? This was my point in my previous post.

I've personally never been told this and neither has my wife... Last I looked, pulling out and performing a money shot has never been considered birth control.

As far as you quoting me about Mormons having a lot of children being erroneous, I have friends who are mormon and confirm they are greatly encouraged to have a lot of children.

 

[t-dub]

Until last week Spain offered free health care to its illegal immigrants. It's only the bite of the economic crunch that's stopped it, but it's a shame as it was a very humanitarian policy.

Socialism is great, until you run out of other people's money . . .

 

[t-dub]

But you are told not to use birth control, are you not, or am I mistaken? This was my point in my previous post.

lwien, the Catholics use a system call NFP (natural family planning) It uses temp, time, vaginal secretion thickness etc so you can plan around fertility. At least that is what they taught us over 20 years ago in the marriage class.

 

[lwien]

As far as you quoting me about Mormons having a lot of children being erroneous, I have friends who are mormon and confirm they are greatly encouraged to have a lot of children.

There you go again. Not only do you make false blanket statements, but you are misquoting me. I have NEVER said that Mormons having a lot of children is an erroneous statement. Show me where I said that? There is a HUGE difference between, "Mormons have a lot of children" versus, "Mormons have more children than Catholics". Those are two totally different statements.

Blanket generalities are typically false by their very nature, but that's what happens when emotional subjectivity takes over logical objectivity.

 

[lwien]

lwien, the Catholics use a system call NFP (natural family planning) It uses temp, time, vaginal secretion thickness etc so you can plan around fertility. At least that is what they taught us over 20 years ago in the marriage class.

That's interesting. First time I heard about this. How well does it work?

 

[t-dub]

My wife and I thought the method looked interesting from religious perspective but we concluded that it lacked the "certainty" or precision that we required, plus I didn't want to buy a microscope, so we took other measures that the church wouldn't support, if they knew.

Edit: I will just come out and say it. The pill was easier, cheaper, and has a very low failure %. Also, ethically since conception never takes place, it seemed fine. If I'm gonna go to hell I guess I'm gonna go to hell . . .

 

[vorrange]

Maybe i am generalizing a bit, but i think most catholic nowadays have a more progressive view of things and have kept their faith along with adapting to life in the 21st century. Most like t-dub and the wife.

 

[Venomous]

There you go again. Not only do you make false blanket statements, but you are misquoting me. I have NEVER said that Mormons having a lot of children is an erroneous statement. Show me where I said that? There is a HUGE difference between, "Mormons have a lot of children" versus, "Mormons have more children than Catholics". Those are two totally different statements.

Blanket generalities are typically false by their very nature, but that's what happens when emotional subjectivity takes over logical objectivity.

How is it a false blanket statement? I'm telling you exactly what friends of mine who are raised Mormons say about it. You are looking just to argue, rather comprehending what I write. If you want to be condenscending with your statements, hit an online chat. Show me one logical liberal and we can further discuss emotional subjectivity.

 

[Venomous]

My wife and I thought the method looked interesting from religious perspective but we concluded that it lacked the "certainty" or precision that we required, plus I didn't want to buy a microscope, so we took other measures that the church wouldn't support, if they knew.

Edit: I will just come out and say it. The pill was easier, cheaper, and has a very low failure %. Also, ethically since conception never takes place, it seemed fine. If I'm gonna go to hell I guess I'm gonna go to hell . . .

Catholics don't goto hell lol. Why do you think italian mobsters embraced Catholicism? Ugh oh, did I just make another general blanket statement? (eye roll)

What you made was a logical decision, rather than an irresponsible one.

 

[t-dub]

The hell reference was a joke, I'm sorry my sense of humor is a little dry . .

And my tolerance for organized religion, low.

 

[Venomous]

The hell reference was a joke, I'm sorry my sense of humor is a little dry . .

And my tolerance for organized religion, low.

I know it was. The other guy up there is being a ball buster liberal. Im no longer involved with organized religion either. It's all bullshit and about money.

 

[lwien]

The other guy up there is being a ball buster liberal.

I'll take that as a compliment although I'm sure it wasn't meant as one. Thanks.

 

[WatTyler]

I'm quite aware what paki means in the uk... I knew you would understand what it means. I'm cymru and have family in south Cardiff, other parts of England and Ireland.

And yet you still use the term? It's a racial slur ffs. What do you call black people?

(and I think you meant to say that you are Welsh rather than Wales? "Cymry" is the people, "Cymru" the country (& "dafad hystlen" the pastime...))

Socialism is great, until you run out of other people's money . . .

Pure capitalism is great until you see unfortunate people suffering with treatable illnesses, only though financial hardship, whilst others nearby bathe in $1000 bottles of champagne and never do a days hard work in their lives. Can you really say that that is a good model? Whilst I can agree that a capitalist system works quite well in terms of increasing productivity and wealth, I also know that the happiest societies, for both rich and poor, are not those with a big gulf between those that have and those that have not. Some socialist policies are great and do make for a better place to live.

When we can afford it, why not care for those who are ill and suffering on our shores, regardless of their nationality? And actually we can afford it. If you choose to be selfless enough in setting your priorities. I would honestly gladly pay more tax if it went towards looking after ill people, even illegals if they did well enough to get in, rather than maintaining enough nuclear weapons to wipe out the world several times over (over 5000 in the USA, 200+ in the UK), or on picking fights with Iraqi dictators. It's just where my priorities lie- certainly not in war. Sure, we do need some war loving personalities in our society, for defense, but really.... this is out of proportion. We can do FAR more good with our resources than we do already- but we let wrong, power hungry, industry led people decide.

Maybe i am generalizing a bit, but i think most catholic nowadays have a more progressive view of things and have kept their faith along with adapting to life in the 21st century. Most like t-dub and the wife.

Ya, I agree in the western world, but I think Catholicism has still got a lot to account for elsewhere. And most certainly there's an issue with the transmission of HIV throughout the developing world, aside from the birth control aspect.

 

[vorrange]

Wat, what you said pretty much sums up my views about the problem. If the money was more evenly distributed throughout society and more justly invested in real problems instead of nuclear power, weapons and such, there would be enough left to help those in need and there would be enough left to help people get back on their feet.

Sure enough miracles don't happen and change doesn't happen overnight, but it would be a hell of a start.

About the HIV and the birth control aspect, i think the developed world only has those problems because it chooses too. There are simple iniciatives that can be taken to avoid this.

The problem with catolicism is the same problem with islamism, extremists.
Half of what is considered a sin is not even writen in the bible as such, it is the interpretation of some that say it is a sin. And also, catholics are but one type of christians, there are many more. The same happens in Islam. Talibans took over in the 80's, and they are just one kind of islamists.

 

[Vicki]

If you recall 2005/2006 when ca had those huge immigration rallies where 1 million of them showed up in downtown la,news cameras captured these people saying Mexico was número uno. Well if thats the case, go back... Not to mention their waving of the mexico flag.

At my house you will find four flags flying... The highest flag that flies above all is the american flag in my yard. Respect where you come from, but love the country you reside in.

Yes, I do recall that, and it really pissed me off. I agree with you 100%% If you hate the free handout's here so bad, go home!!

I think people are SO missing the point! California IS NOT Mexico. They are NOT IN THEIR HOMELAND anymore, but History class should have taught people this, duh!

They came here illegally!!!!!! Why are people so eager to give their tax dollars to illegal aliens when so many people that are here LEGALLY are suffering. WHY are illegals getting all the privelages and legal people are DENIED? It's fucked up.

 

[turk]

....I was at the ones in s.f.....I support the immigrant community....I'm NOT a liberal.....radical, would probably be the word that best describes me.... .(I'm the radical your mother told you to beware of)...said it before will say it again...the people you want to "deport" look a lot like the people who were indigenous to this place...

 

[WatTyler]

love, not hate

 

[TriiKLe]

I'm just glad barbarians aren't pillaging my village.

 

[t-dub]

If I was born in Mexico I would do anything to get out, you can't blame these people for wanting to leave. I have seen, first hand, poverty so intense in the Philippines that I wouldn't even describe what I saw being done to the children there. What I can say is I do not like the hypocrisy coming from Mexico on this issue. Just look at how Mexico treats illegals coming from Central America up through their southern border . . .

 

[WatTyler]

Why are people so eager to give their tax dollars to illegal aliens when so many people that are here LEGALLY are suffering. WHY are illegals getting all the privelages and legal people are DENIED? It's fucked up.

I'm willing to give support because its needed by many at some point in their lives- legal or not- it shouldn't be either or when it comes to helping humans and families in need. That's the point. Sure the system is fucked up and some don't get the help they deserve, but blame the bankers, investors, money lenders and politicians- they are the ones who really benefit at every juncture. This is not the fault of the folk on the bottom of the pile trying hard to survive, of legal or illegal residency status. Why focus hate or anger on them?

And so much respect for the law? I'm a criminal every day It's not an option for me to vape legal bud. It's just not an option for many of these people to enter countries legally. We all do what we must. We need border controls, but fair play to the migrant if they're determined and resourceful enough to manage get through. I can't hate them for it.

 

[Vicki]

I'm willing to give support because its needed by some- legal or not- it shouldn't be either or when it comes to helping humans and families in need. That's the point. Sure the system is fucked up and some don't get the help they deserve, but blame the bankers, investors, money lenders and politicians- they are the ones who really benefit at every juncture. This is not the fault of the folk on the bottom of the pile trying hard to survive, of legal or illegal residency status. Why focus hate or anger on them?

And so much respect for the law? I'm a criminal every day It's not an option for me to vape legal bud. It's just not an option for many of these people to enter countries legally. We do what we must. We all need border controls, but fair play to the migrant if they're determined and resourceful enough to manage get through. I can't hate them for it.

I disagree. If people want to come here, do it legally. Our next door neighbors are hispanic, and they are our friends. They came here legally, and they do not like illegals because they say "it makes them look bad." This is their opinion, not mine.

 

[WatTyler]

How exactly?

If you have no degree level education it pretty much impossible.

I stayed with an Indian room mate one year whilst at university. His sister studied in the USA and he wanted to go and visit her from the UK. He was refused a tourist visa because at that time he was unqualified and was a young man of working age who I guess they thought wouldn't leave if they let him in, so he couldn't even go and visit his sister in America, let alone be considered for immigration. And this was a chap from a wealthy family.

I can imagine that Mexicans would have to jump through even more high hoops to be legally allowed into the US.

 

[Vicki]

How exactly?

If you have no degree level education it pretty much impossible.

I stayed with an Indian room mate one year whilst at university. His sister studied in the USA and he wanted to go and visit her from the UK. He was refused a tourist visa because at that time he was unqualified and was a young man of working age who I guess they thought wouldn't leave if they let him in, so he couldn't even go and visit his sister in America, let alone be considered for immigration. And this was a chap from a wealthy family.

I can imagine that Mexicans would have to jump through even more high hoops to be legally allowed into the US.

If they can't do it legally, then don't come in the first place, period.

 

[WatTyler]

If you can't vape legally then don't do it. Period.