natural farmer

Well-Known Member
As demonstrated in this chart, there does seem to be some convective heating in the early part of the hit (see first draw). As the VC continues to lose heat during the draw, the incoming air actually cools the load (see 2nd draw).

naq5bC7.jpg


:peace:

Hadn't seen that chart... Nice! But, the fact that temp still rises in the load after starting the draw (I assume these are load temps) doesn' suggest that the incoming hot air does it. Most likely it's the stored heat in the metal that plays the most part of continuing to raise the load temp after the click and first 10secs of the draw.
It would be nice if the tip temps were also displayed on the chart. There would be a clearer picture of what is really happening. :)
Did you do the measurings @Stu?

EDIT: There is indeed a small change in the curve when the draw is starting suggesting that the incoming air is heating things up a bit faster but it makes a very small difference in my opinion...

EDIT: OK, with my almost red now, waked and baked, expert eye of a seasoned vaporist, I am eye-balling the convection-conduction ratio of this wonder of engineering to be at about 10/90!!! :ko::brow::cool::lol::freak: Golden ratio??? :rofl:
 
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Summer

Long Island, NY
I'm thinking that with the IH there's more convection being added to the conduction than with a lighter. But I really don't know for sure. :shrug: Any thoughts?


I had my 2nd enjoyable sesh w/ the M8 (as @LesPlenty calls the 18M) tonight. I am just so impressed & tickled. It's like it was made especially for me.
dogdance.gif
 
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stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
Preheating the load is done via heat conduction.
But while inhaling ,heat convection takes over and what's left to be extracted from the load
is being extracted by hot air stream
.

That's -more or less - how and when conduction and convection heat transfer
is done from the VapCap tip to the load.

Titanium & 316L SS have extraordinary thermal properties.
If the tip was made out of aluminium ,cast iron or copper ,then you could say that the VC
was mostly a conduction vaporizer.But that is not the case .
There are quite a few of other parameters that have to be considered also.

The diagram Stu posted ,while is not a detailed CFD analysis it actually reveals
that while the application of heat has stopped ( energy supply has ceased ) ,
actual inhaling causes the temperature inside the chamber to rise .
And the ratio ( Δtemp/Δtime) of heat rising is higher or at least the same of that while heating
(the angle of the curve is somewhat steeper while drawing ,than while heating ) .

Simple Question : How it's possible ,while the energy supply has ceased ,the temperature
to rise at the same or even greater ratio ,if only conduction heat transfer is taking place ?

Simple answer: It's impossible !
There has to be another way of heat transfer taking place .

And that is convection,while drawing .
 
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Summer

Long Island, NY
I would prefer the toastier vapor of the VC and the ability to mouthpull it any day over the fresher convection one of any vape that would force me to draw all this harsh hotness straight to my lungs and poor throat!

I have 3 convection-only vapes & sometimes I do mouth pulls instead of lung pulls with them. While I don't do a hard fish-face pull, I do collect the vapor in my mouth for about 10 sec- before I inhale. My Ghost's vapor is cool & smooth so there is no harsh hotness when drawing straight to lungs.
 
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OF

Well-Known Member
Logic tells me that even if you heat the cap to 230°C, the air passing between the cap and the tip cant possibly be heated from room temp to over 160°C, needed for vapor production, for more than a couple of secs. And I doubt those couple of secs of hot enough incoming air contribute much to vapor production. Much more energy and time is needed for that..

Yep, I'd agree with that. To heat by convection the air has to be much hotter coming in that going out so it can cool enough to give up enough heat to make some vapor before it cools enough to condense that vapor again. That much heat available to heat the incoming air would combust the load by conduction if you didn't dray enough cool air in (take a hit).

Real convection vapes like TV or Firefly have sources that are 'glowing hot'? Isn't that how FF got it's name? TV's thermal cores run at something like 1300F, the load wouldn't stand a chance if the heater was wrapped around it and airflow didn't happen?

What we have here is a preheating of the incoming air, not so it'll make more vapor but so it won't cause too much cooling. But there is no direct contribution to making vapor I can see.

Not that how it happens is important. Heat is heat no matter how it gets to the load. But if we're going to use technical terms like Convection and Conduction I think we should do so correctly.

At least that's how I understand Science, or rather was taught it back when you learned such things from credentialed instructors teaching established (and per reviewed) lessons of a traditional nature. Using their real names. You know, before the internet made everyone experts? Thermodynamics has Laws (like 'heat flows from hot to cold', complete with numbers), marketing claims not so much.........

OF
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
EDIT: There is indeed a small change in the curve when the draw is starting suggesting that the incoming air is heating things up a bit faster but it makes a very small difference in my opinion...

EDIT: OK, with my almost red now, waked and baked, expert eye of a seasoned vaporist, I am eye-balling the convection-conduction ratio of this wonder of engineering to be at about 10/90!!! :ko::brow::cool::lol::freak: Golden ratio??? :rofl:


Let's take things from start ,while trying to decipher what the diagram is showing .

Heating of the chamber starts at about 25°C .
First click is heard ,when the chamber temperature is about 100°C .
The VC is removed from the IH device when chamber temperature is a bit less than 120°C .

Up till this point the heat is transferred from the chamber to the load ,
mainly via conduction = transfer of heat via direct contact of the chamber wall with the load particles
and the further diffusion of heat amongst the load particles .

At this point also ( labeled at chart as "removed from IH " ) if instead of drawing a toke ,
the VC was left to cool at ambient temperature of 25°C ,the curve will have had followed
a rising trend with continuously decreasing Δ temp/Δ time ratio.
At best case it would have reached up to 150°C and no more .
That should be tested to be verified ,but I'm betting on that one.
It can be easily "predicted" just by studying carefully the curve of the graph
and maybe applying some maths also ( "trend" ) .


150° at best case .
That's some 6-8 °C below THC boiling point at sea level pressure.

"Start draw " happens when chamber temperature is at ~ 130° C .
And by the end of the draw it has reached 180°C .

As you can easily see the load and the chamber were "preheated" at about
130-140°C .
Then the cool incoming air ,while drawing, conducts the heat from the hot chamber
and passing through the load it rises it's temp up to 180°C .
Convection is the heat transfer due to bulk movement of molecules within fluids.
Hot air passing through a (preheated) load ,
falls in that category,in terms of heat transfer
from solid(chamber) to fluid (air) to solid (load) again.


During this brief period is when the main extraction is taking place.
At the same time the chamber wall temperature has dropped considerably.
But the load itself is still " boiling " hot .

Furthermore,when the second draw is taking place the load temperature is still above 160°C.
And by the end of it it has dropped down to 130°C .
Almost at the same temperature it had when the fisrt draw had begun.

I'm not quite sure about the 10/90 percentage ratio ,but
i'm pretty sure what is going on from ambient tempearture up to 130°-140°C
and what from 130°-140°C up to the max temperature ( 180-200°C ) .

;)

Cheers.
:2c:

EDIT :
@Stu ,please if possible run again the measurement ,but
this time ,after removing from IH device ,just let it cool ,
without any drawing.
I'm pretty sure that the conductive energy transfer of the stored heat ,
will not rise the chamber & load's temperature over 150°C.

( Note : With ~16.5 W/mK value of heat conduction ,both Ti and 316 L S.steel are not exactly
considered as good heat conductors ,at least comparing with other metals .
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-metals-d_858.html )

And while IH heats the tip+Cap combo quite evenly surface-mass wise
(a triple jet lighter combined with fast VC spinning shall have more or less similar effect ),
things change with a single flame ( jet of simple ) .
depending where at the cap (& tip ) the heat is applied ,
and how fast the Vc is spinned then the diffusion of heat within the tip
and the amount being stored before the click is heard can be altered .

That has an immediate impact on the "preheat " temperature and
of course on the max temperature ( depends on the amount of stored heat ) achieved
with drawing .

The lower (towards the Vc stem) the heat applied to the cap ,
the higher the preheat temperature is going to be
and more heat is going to be stored at the tip,until the click.

The higher ( towards the tip of the cap ) the heat applied to the cap,
the lower the preheat temperature is going to be
and less heat is going to be stored at the tip,until the click.

The speed of VC "spinning" affects how evenly the heat is applied
and if hot spots are created or -rather- not.

Slow drawing for achieving max temperature.
Carb fully closed for maximum vapour extraction or
fully /semi open for some smooth clouds .
 
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fachada

Well-Known Member
Hi everyone. First Post!

I've been a long time follower here and been VC-ing for 2+ years now! Changed my life, yada-yada-yada, you know what I'm talking about. (thanks FC!!)

Never had much to add to the discussion, but this week I bought an Alcohol Lamp (someone was asking about those a few pages back?) and it works really reeeeally well: no soot whatsoever, IMO much faster than a candle (or soft flame lighter), full extraction. It's perfect with my (very) long @phattpiggie stem!!

still need to jump in on the IH wagon...
 

VanCough

Environmentalist
Update on my 420 double order error:

Hi all, I have some positive news with regards to my issue.

Joe responded to my message on Monday, he apologised for the amount of time it took to get back to me and said he (as the only CS representative Dynavap has) has been swamped with emails since 420 and the logistics of handling the volume of correspondence they received is something he is having to find solutions for 'on the fly' due to Dynavap being such a small and relatively new company.

He immediately refunded the value of the order, confirmed that they will refund the import fee and asked me to confirm the exchange rate (which is good because his was wrong) and he is now waiting for me to get him a quote for the return postage of the erroneous order before he transfers me the value of the import fee and return postage.

He asked for understanding, explaining that he is trying to establish procedures to ensure everyone receives the same impartial customer service.

He finished by reiterating his apologies.

I responded with:

Hi Joe,

I don’t blame you for the situation, I work in my family’s business so know that often times in a small business it’s all hands on deck. It sounds like you guys need some more hands, hopefully the recent success you have had will translate into growth for Dynavap.

I respect the passion Dynavap as a brand name has to: help people quit smoking, innovate, and perfect the engineering and style/class of your products; and that couldn’t happen without all of the individuals that make up the company.

You come across nerdy but likeable on the live videos, something that I think all of us vaping enthusiasts have in common. George is definitely a huge nerd! Without which we’d not have our awesome little vapcaps!

Can I suggest though that in future you regularly scan read all your emails (including new ones) and then prioritise them based on importance of content. I can’t help but think that my issue must have been more serious than others, and I do feel like I fell through the cracks and haven’t received great customer service.

I’m very active on the fuckcombustion forum, the Dynavap Vapcap thread specifically, and have been for years throughout Dynavap’s evolution. As a result, I and the other members on there who were early supporters , expect the same customer service that was one of the main factors that has turned many of us into Dynavap collectors, enthusiasts and even some into skilled accessory makers.

Just don’t compromise those values whilst you scale. Please relay that sentiment to George, as I do believe he values our input even if he (understandably) has less time for us on FC these days.

EDIT: I would like to add that throughout this issue the most reliable person from Dynavap to get back to me was whoever manages their social media account. They were very helpful and at my request brought my issue to George's attention. Which may very well have moved me up Joe's queue. If anyone has any issues, I would recommend getting in touch with them via Facebook messenger.
 
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hinglemccringleberry

Well-Known Member
I think you are wrong. I rarely do more than one bowl (tip) at a time, and often do only a hit or two. The bowl (tip) never gets hot enough for more than a little conduction. I can grab the tip (not the cap) without burning myself.

.
Have you tried touching the tip (without the cap) 2 seconds after heating the cap to the hot click? (2 seconds being the time it takes to remove the cap real quick with a glove protecting your skin)? I sure cant. If you can, you should apply to be one of the Avengers ;)
Yep, I'd agree with that. To heat by convection the air has to be much hotter coming in that going out so it can cool enough to give up enough heat to make some vapor before it cools enough to condense that vapor again. That much heat available to heat the incoming air would combust the load by conduction if you didn't dray enough cool air in (take a hit).

Real convection vapes like TV or Firefly have sources that are 'glowing hot'? Isn't that how FF got it's name? TV's thermal cores run at something like 1300F, the load wouldn't stand a chance if the heater was wrapped around it and airflow didn't happen?

What we have here is a preheating of the incoming air, not so it'll make more vapor but so it won't cause too much cooling. But there is no direct contribution to making vapor I can see.

Not that how it happens is important. Heat is heat no matter how it gets to the load. But if we're going to use technical terms like Convection and Conduction I think we should do so correctly.

At least that's how I understand Science, or rather was taught it back when you learned such things from credentialed instructors teaching established (and per reviewed) lessons of a traditional nature. Using their real names. You know, before the internet made everyone experts? Thermodynamics has Laws (like 'heat flows from hot to cold', complete with numbers), marketing claims not so much.........

OF
Exactly what Ive been trying to express, but you are a much better 'splainer than I. Also anyone can try the experiment of heating a loaded VC for a few cycles without drawing, and they will see for themselves how much it cooks the load. This is a primarily conduction device verified by real world testing and im not sure why its been debated so much in the first place. Anyone who has used the Sticky Brick line of butane powered, 100% covection vapes and compared that vapor to the VC vapor knows what Im talking about. Night and day difference between the two. (FTR, I prefer the VC to the SBJ because its waaaay more user friendly).
 
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Lady V

Well-Known Member
Such amazing info these days! The stuff you can learn here is one of the major reasons I joined this forum and thread! So great to see so many analytical minds.

Ι 've been using my M7 (lol reminds me of Leica, sorry) condenserless for a week, so I decided I'd finally put my Cocobolo stem to use. I was waiting to get the whole xls-mouthpiece-tip-cap set-up, but realized that it was just silly to do so. So I legoed the M7 condenser and the omni Tip and I'm loving it. Is it me or does the position of the carb on the NonaVong stem make for higher draw restriction? So all I gotta get (for) now is a Ti tip and a cap... Maybe I'll get an xls Ti condenser when the European retailers make 'em available.

UlLsFMV.jpg

YQpRXUn.jpg


Update on my 420 double order error:

Hi all, I have some positive news with regards to my issue.

Joe responded to my message on Monday, he apologised for the amount of time it took to get back to me and said he (as the only CS representative Dynavap has) has been swamped with emails since 420 and the logistics of handling the volume of correspondence they received is something he is having to find solutions for 'on the fly' due to Dynavap being such a small and relatively new company.

He immediately refunded the value of the order, confirmed that they will refund the import fee and asked me to confirm the exchange rate (which is good because his was wrong) and he is now waiting for me to get him a quote for the return postage of the erroneous order before he transfers me the value of the import fee and return postage.

He asked for understanding, explaining that he is trying to establish procedures to ensure everyone receives the same impartial customer service.

He finished by reiterating his apologies.

I responded with:

Hi Joe,

I don’t blame you for the situation, I work in my family’s business so know that often times in a small business it’s all hands on deck. It sounds like you guys need some more hands, hopefully the recent success you have had will translate into growth for Dynavap.

I respect the passion Dynavap as a brand name has to: help people quit smoking, innovate, and perfect the engineering and style/class of your products; and that couldn’t happen without all of the individuals that make up the company.

You come across nerdy but likeable on the live videos, something that I think all of us vaping enthusiasts have in common. George is definitely a huge nerd! Without which we’d not have our awesome little vapcaps!

Can I suggest though that in future you regularly scan read all your emails (including new ones) and then prioritise them based on importance of content. I can’t help but think that my issue must have been more serious than others, and I do feel like I fell through the cracks and haven’t received great customer service.

I’m very active on the fuckcombustion forum, the Dynavap Vapcap thread specifically, and have been for years throughout Dynavap’s evolution. As a result, I and the other members on there who were early supporters , expect the same customer service that was one of the main factors that has turned many of us into Dynavap collectors, enthusiasts and even some into skilled accessory makers.

Just don’t compromise those values whilst you scale. Please relay that sentiment to George, as I do believe he values our input even if he (understandably) has less time for us on FC these days.

Ι was waiting to see if your issue would be resolved! And, yaaaay! Very happy for you!

If you can, you should apply to be one of the Avengers ;)

Just tried it. Call me Avenger now, please. I deserve it.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:
 

hinglemccringleberry

Well-Known Member
Just tried it. Call me Avenger now, please. I deserve it.
lemme guess, you did it for 1 cycle (AKA cold start) and you touched it for like half a second. Try heating for 3 cycles back to back to get it to more realistic vaporization temps and keep your skin pressed firmly on it for 10 seconds right after that 3rd hot click? I get vapor production without even drawing..
 

Winegums

I make things from wood
Accessory Maker
Exactly what Ive been trying to express, but you are a much better 'splainer than I. Also anyone can try the experiment of heating a loaded VC for a few cycles without drawing, and they will see for themselves how much it cooks the load. This is a primarily conduction device verified by real world testing and im not sure why its been debated so much in the first place. Anyone who has used the Sticky Brick line of butane powered, 100% covection vapes and compared that vapor to the VC vapor knows what Im talking about. Night and day difference between the two. (FTR, I prefer the VC to the SBJ because its waaaay more user friendly).
Your thinking is flawed. Of course if you do cycles without drawing it's going to be conduction because there's no air flow to create convection heating. :wave:
 

Dynavaper

Karma Farmer
lemme guess, you did it for 1 cycle (AKA cold start) and you touched it for like half a second. Try heating for 3 cycles to get it to more realistic vaporization temps and keep your skin pressed firmly on it for 10 seconds right after that hot click?

The question was if I can. And I could. Pain is nothing that we Avengers talk about in public, alright? ;)

And: My thinking is flawed most of the time. You guys are great. Stop accusing each other or I post nude selfies. You don't want that. Trust me. ;)
 
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Winegums

I make things from wood
Accessory Maker
No, your thinking is flawed. The said airflow isnt hot enoigh to create vapor :wave:
How is my thinking flawed? Your experimental procedure is WRONG, you're not using the device as intended and producing the results you want to see. When you have no airflow there's no convective heating. You're cooking the herb via conduction and then stating that it's cooking it through conduction and there for it's primarily conduction. :mental:

Your method of heating, the time it takes to click, airflow through the piece, how long you wait until you draw, etc ,etc ,etc all change the ratio of conduction and convection in a Vapcap. Slow heating = more time for conduction, Fast heating = Less time for conduction.

The reason it's debated is because Vapcaps are a hybrid that varies with each user and model. There's no definitive answer. :worms:
 
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