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Vapman

Discussion in 'Portable Vaporizers' started by spyder, Jul 3, 2008.

  1. vapman

    vapman Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    Switzerland
    I have some bad news to tell: All the parcels to Germany and Austria came back to us lately without knowing the exact reason. On the parcels was only marked "not permitted". To us it was completely incomprehensible as we sent parcels to those countries since many years on a regular basis. After lots of phone calls and emails we finally found out, that the new tobacco law is the reason. The customs state, that vapman can be used for tobacco and e-juices (called e-liquids in Europe) and is therefore not legal anymore! Imagine this, vapman is now illegal!
    The irony of the story is, that in Austria they newly allow smoking in restaurants and bars again after it was banned for years but vaporizers are now illegal. This is hard to digest and accept as it actually means the end of vapman. We can no longer exist without having the certainty of shipping our products to our clients all over the world. Because we had this problem only in Germany and Austria so far, we decided to remove Germany and Austria from the list of countries in our online shop. We had to do this as the customs are threatening with criminal proceedings against the sellers and the buyers!

    Our business is in limbo and I don't know how Storz & Bickel still can sell their products in Germany and even export to Switzerland. At the moment it seems to me, that this law is applied arbitrarily and this hurts especially a lot.

    I will keep you informed, the situation for vapman is very serious and not looking good at all!

    vapman
     
  2. Used2use

    Used2use Sometimes to stupid to become a fool

    Messages:
    472
    Damn customs and bureaucracy - the vapman construction is clearly not for ejuice with the holes/tubes in the bottom, and the capacity for tobacco would be smaller than any other device i know of - you can't even find much about vapman usage with tobacco in the internet, so how do customs come to that idea? Maybe hey should try it theirselves with tobacco, to see that it makes not much sense...
    Ejuice and tobacco could be vaped on a hotplate, so that would also be illegal...
    Maybe ask for the exact paragraphs and some comparable examples that lead to their decision / opinion - somewhere on that way is the best chance to change opinions with a lot of friendly formulated questions by my experience, good luck. Heads up! :)
    (Shipping to an other EU coutry and then from there to AU/GER might work :lol: )
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
    simpleasthcis, Gourmet, szai and 6 others like this.
  3. antispleen

    antispleen Hyperborean Wanderer

    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    New England, USA
    This is heartbreaking news. I just got a vapman a couple weeks ago and it is amazing!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I'm pulling for you over here in the USA. The whole world needs to stop demonizing this miracle plant. Anything I could possibly do to help, please hit me up. Good luck.
     
  4. Basti

    Basti Active Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Germany
    Do you still sell the vapman to german shops like verdampftnochmal, or is there the same problem?
     
    simpleasthcis, Gourmet, szai and 5 others like this.
  5. Dynavaper

    Dynavaper Karma Farmer & Dynavap Maniac

    Messages:
    732
    Location:
    Europe
    @vapman:
    Oh dear, those are bad news! Please kindly keep us updated and do not hesitate to contact me directly (you have my data) in case that you need any help or assistance from the other side of the border! All fingers crossed for a good ending!!! :tup:
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  6. Copacetic

    Copacetic Somewhere North of The Wall

    Messages:
    885
    That's terrible!
    I love my Vapman, and think every country should value the availability of such a great little aromatherapy device :(

    Hopefully the Vapmans' erroneous classification as a tobacco or e-cig device can be rectified.

    Austrias stance to permit smoking :puke: but ban vaporizers is truly ass-backwards lunacy.

    Best wishes man!
     
  7. vapman

    vapman Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    Switzerland
    Verdampftnochmal still has a stock of vapman and stations but I don't know if further shipping is possible. After what the the Department of Health and Consumer Protection in Germany wrote, it shouldn't be possible. They state, that it is illegal to trade any tobacco related goods. The most explosive point is, that it is not a question of functional specifications, it is only a question of fitness! If a vaporizer is capable of vaporizing any tobacco related products like e-juice or tobacco leaves, then it is classified as a tobacco related product.
    Yesterday evening I talked to Andi from Verdampftnochmal and he didn't know about this new law, which is quite amazing! First he thought, that it can't be that serious but after reading out the emails we received, he took it very serious. I talked to other famous actors on the German scene and they also haven't heard of it.
    Imagin, we get our parcel sent back with the note, that it is illegal to sell such products and then I call one of the biggest sellers and he hasn't heard of this new law! Real crazy situation.:hmm:

    @Dynavaper: Thank you for stretching out your hand, it is much appreciated!

    Thanks for the good wishes for the ongoing and unbelievable journey of vapman!:tup:

    I keep you posted!


    vapman
     
  8. Doktor Dub

    Doktor Dub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    513
    Location:
    Europe
    if i remember right, @Hogni realized the implications of this new law quite some time ago and there is a thread about it... we should have listened...
     
  9. AtomicPB

    AtomicPB Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Europe
    @vapman

    That sounds really serious. With what you are saying, it would mean that all Vaporizers might become illegal in Germany.

    As you manufacturers are all kinda in the same boat, have you talked to S&B already? I can imagine that they can't be too happy about this new law either. Since they are a little bigger as a company they might already have some legal department or something working on it.

    Somehow I can not imagine that this would hold up in the court of law, since there are many products related to tobacco consumption which are still freely available ...

    Would it be possible to somehow label the Vapman different?

    Anyways, I am very sorry to hear that und hope that you find a good solution so that we can enjoy your products in the future.
     
  10. vapman

    vapman Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    Switzerland
    I talked to Markus Storz for over a hour this morning, he has not heard of the new law and he is quite concerned now! S&B is big, they have their own lawyers, I wonder what they come up with?

    vapman
     
  11. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,016
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Bills.

    Same as here.

    OF
     
  12. Basti

    Basti Active Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Germany
    @vapman: i checked Article 20 of the Tobacco Products Directive (2014/40/EU) lays down rules for electronic cigarettes sold as consumer products in the EU and couldn't find anything which leads to illegal trade to tobacco related products. Where can I find this new rules?
     
  13. Alex3oe

    Alex3oe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    143
    What a fucking mess, this bureaucracy bullshit should go to hell along with it's shit head creators. The whole city is full of Philipp Morris iQOS advertising but an artwork like the Vapman should be illegal? Unbelievable...
     
  14. yetidog

    yetidog New Member

    Messages:
    1
    as far as i know, S+B declare the packages as "electronic thermic heating elements".
    Or just write: unusable with tabacco.

    We send different Vaporizer as "E-cigarette without battery" and it works.
    It is the new TPD2 Law.
     
  15. vapman

    vapman Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    Switzerland
    The new law seems to leave a lot of space for interpretation.

    Here is the original email we received from the German department.

    "Auf der Homepage findet sich ein Video, in dem der Hersteller angibt, dass "liquids" verdampft werden können, allerdings ist das Video auf Englisch und die Übersetzung hierfür lautet "Flüssigkeiten". Da die Temperaturregulation bei dem betroffenen Produkt dadurch erfolgt, wie lange eine Flamme an die Kupferpfanne gehalten wird, ist es sehr wahrscheinlich, dass damit Temperaturen über den Siedetemperaturen der beiden üblichen Lösungsmittel Glycerin und 1,2-Propandiol von nikotinhaltigen E-Liquids erreicht werden. Daher erscheint anhand der Informationen der Homepage eine Dampferzeugung aus nikotinhaltigen E-Liquids mit dem Gerät möglich zu sein. Der Konsum des Dampfes erfolgt analog zu den Dämpfen von sonstigen Kräutern etc. (auf der Homepage angegeben und z.B. im Video beworben) über das Mundstück und somit handelt es sich nach hiesiger Auffassung um eine elektronische Zigarette im Sinne des § 1 Abs. 1 Tabakerzeugnisgesetz i.V.m. Art. 2 Nr. 16 der Richtlinie 2014/40/EU. Gemäß Art. 2 Nummer 16 der RL 2014/40/EU sind "elektronische Zigaretten" ein Erzeugnis, das zum Konsum nikotinhaltigen Dampfes mittels eines Mundstücks verwendet werden kann, oder jeder Bestandteil dieses Produkts, einschließlich einer Kartusche, eines Tanks, und des Gerätes ohne Kartusche oder Tank. Elektronische Zigaretten können Einwegprodukte oder mittels eines Nachfüllbehälters oder eines Tanks nachfüllbar sein oder mit Einwegkartuschen nachgeladen werden. Die Definition für eine "elektronische Zigarette" ist hier sehr weit gefasst und umfasst auch Teile einer elektronischen Zigarette, so auch z.B. einen Verdampfer. Bei der Definition für die elektronische Zigarette kommt es im Sinne des Tabakrechts nicht auf die Zweckbestimmung an, die Eignung ist schon ausreichend. Somit fällt das Produkt unter das Tabakrecht und kann aufgrund der in der Kontrollmitteilung angegeben Verstöße nicht freigegeben werden."


    They actually watched our video, (yes, they have time for this) saw and heard the message, that vapman works with e-liquids. Now, one might think, it was a mistake to tell this on the video but after reading the whole email and especially the last two sentences, you can easily see that it wouldn't help not to mention it. This is the translation of the two last sentences:

    "The definition of an "electronic cigarette" is here very broad and also includes parts of an electronic cigarette, such as e.g. an evaporator. The definition of the electronic cigarette does not apply to the purposes of tobacco law, its suitability is already sufficient. Thus, the product is covered by tobacco legislation and can not be released due to the infringements stated in the Control Notice."


    Basically it says: because vapman is suitable and capable for vaporizing tobacco and tobacco related products, it is an e-cigarette and therefore all vaporizers can be classified as e-cigarettes!

    Side note: Vapman is on the market since the end of 2005, years before the first e-cigarettes hit the market!

    Arbitrariness is hard to bear, it really is!


    vapman
     
  16. simpleasthcis

    simpleasthcis ... As a box of ....

    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    New Zeireland
    Wow this is very harsh, particularly the Austrian policy how backward . Is it an attempt too disrupt counterfeit tabaco rather than eliminate smoking, so second hand smoke is fine if the tax is paid ?. Like banning cars for fear of people useing dirty fuels .
    I’ve never used tabaco in my life thankfully, with Vapman I have fucked combustion completely with emeasureable health benefits. I wouldn’t wanna be without one .
    Good luck with the future Viva la Vapman


    Found this FYI
    http://forestonline.eu/news/press-r...ations-infantilise-consummers-say-campaigners
     
    vapman, szai, AtomicPB and 4 others like this.
  17. Used2use

    Used2use Sometimes to stupid to become a fool

    Messages:
    472
    That's so f'd up - it reads a lot like the personal opinion/interpretation of a few in the office... Usually those people live at least 10 years behind reality, so i'm astonished they got the flash player running on their netscape browser to watch a video :lol:
    So if they are consequent they MUST apply that for the whole vaporizer industry, bc their interpretation of that paragraph applys for every model on the market, without exception of declaration tricks.

    It will be interresting to see how other EU countrys interprete that paragraph...but that story reminds me of a similar US FDA thingy -
    http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/f...6-end-of-vaping-devices-2018-in-the-us.22561/

    Maybe sent them a list of all other producers in the segment, so they realize they are poking in a bees hive (or just say, damn we've got much more work to do :rolleyes:) - anyways, u are not alone, it's just a smal consolation but it will affect all producers.
     
    vapelander, vapman, szai and 3 others like this.
  18. Doktor Dub

    Doktor Dub Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    513
    Location:
    Europe
    Yeah, that would be really nice and friendly....... :rolleyes:

    And believe me, german bureaucracy has enough ressources to write letters to all producers of Vapes...

    But i am with you, the room for personal interpretation is f....
     
  19. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    2,135
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    That thread of mine regarded to the newer FDA regulations not to German laws.

    @vapman , please send me your convo with German customs. I'm a professional in German laws but never heard about a new regulation that would prohibit such devices. For a judical review I would especially need the mentioned infringements stated in the Control Notice.
    Just interested in that case w/o costs for you ;)
     
  20. VapourHaze

    VapourHaze Rexcornish on IG, Vaping since '02

    Messages:
    612
    Location:
    Eurocentric
    Haven't dipped in for ages, wanted to say that I have re discovered my love for the vapman again recently after not vaping so much for awhile. It really is a King amongst men.

    I hope Rene can solve this problem, maybe i shall finally order a station?

    @vapman are you still shipping to UK as we 'speak' I don't for-see any issues shipping here personally?

    Thanks
     
    vapman, KidFated., szai and 1 other person like this.
  21. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    2,135
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    P.S. Guess you've hurt some of the new EU obligations of labeling and information? That would be no serious problem. If so you'll have the same probs with all other EU countries the next times. Germans and Austrians are just a bit more "typical German" regarding regulations and so a bit faster than others.
     
  22. vapman

    vapman Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    Switzerland
    There was only the note "not permitted" sticking on the returned parcel. This was the main problem for us, we didn't know what the f... goes on. It took weeks and weeks to finally receive an answer and the answer was the one I copy pasted above. Not long after, a parcel came back from Austria with this note attached:

    [​IMG]

    Yes, we ship to all countries, which are on our list as long we can!

    vapman
     
  23. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    2,135
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Sorry, that doesn't make absolutely no sense! Your sticker regards to "Tabakwaren" that means tobacco goods. That are ONLY products made out of tobacco leafes like cigarrettes, cigars, cigarillos, smoking tobacco incl. chewing tobacco and snuff by legal definition - and NO devices for consumption.

    And § 30 TabStG regulates all stuff that is tax privileged.

    Perhaps you better should send me the whole convo in copy? There must be more or they didn't know what they've done

    EDIT: That only was the Austrian Sticker. What did German customs tell you?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  24. Shannock

    Shannock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    150
    Location:
    3rd Rock Out
    Surely with this very harsh interpretation of law Germany and Austria are soon to be experiencing an apple shortage!

    [​IMG]

    Joking aside I am hoping @vapman can get this sorted!

    :peace:
     
    Alex3oe, Gourmet, vapman and 6 others like this.
  25. simpleasthcis

    simpleasthcis ... As a box of ....

    Messages:
    138
    Location:
    New Zeireland
    Other options if you don’t like apples
     

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