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VapeXhale Cloud

Discussion in 'Plug-in Vaporizers' started by stonemonkey55, Mar 1, 2012.

  1. BradyY

    BradyY Alias for TigerLord

    Messages:
    3
    Apparently consumer protections laws are not popular.

    You have options, all of which will end in your favor, and each option will depend on your method of payment.

    1. If you paid them via PayPal and it's been less than 45 days since the transaction, you can simply open a dispute. PayPal will ask that you ship back the merchandise with a tracking number with delivery confirmation. You must provide the details of the dispute in regards to the breaking. You claim the lack of documentation and proper instruction is what led to the breakage by your hand. Vapexhale say you're a nub user who was too stupid to follow instructions. Paypal will side in your favor with 110% certainty as long as you provided tracking and delivery is confirmed. It matters not that you broke it. VapeXhale agreed to refund any unhappy customers who paid via Paypal so long the dispute is filed within 45 days. It's in their TOS.

    2. If you paid with a credit card, you have several options.
    A. If you paid using any special credit card (gold, platinum) for which you pay an annual fee, it is customary that these cards come with extra special protection that makes it super easy to just return merchandise and get the money back. The CC company will decide on how to proceed with the merchant and never bother you again.
    B. If you paid with an ordinary credit card same thing applies but you'll have to fill out a few forms (minor inconvenience). I see that you took pictures, so keep them, they will ask for them. Again, it matters not that you break it, because you have proof that the product came with inappropriate instructions which will result in an immediate no-fault judgment in your favor.

    Before doing ANY dispute attempts (Paypal or CC company) I would urge you to call back or speak to someone else. You had a lot of positive things to say about the experience too so you obviously have spoken to competent people. Don't let one unprofessional degenerate moron ruin the whole thing.

    As for the phonecall, there is no excuse. Even if it's half true. If one of my employee ever spoke to a customer like this, they would have found themselves without a job. There are rules in business and commerce and one of them is that the customer should be treated with the uttermost respect at all times, even if you think he's an asshole, so long said asshole is reasonable (not calling you an asshole btw).

    From what I gather, there was nothing unreasonable in your behavior, and I don't think any rational human being would think what transpired here is OK or acceptable. But like I said, communicate first. Use the lawyers later. You'll win for sure anyway, so I guess if you really want to be an asshole you could file the chargeback/dispute and give them the finger.

    Otherwise try to find a compromise if you can. If VapeXhale has any business smart they should be inclined to work something out.

    Good luck.

    mod note: The BradyY account was created by TigerLord in order to prop up his arguments
     
  2. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    4,567
    Location:
    Oregon
    Sooooo all this protection applies to cannabis paraphernalia shipped across international borders? :\
     
    GratefulVapor and Vapinghole like this.
  3. BradyY

    BradyY Alias for TigerLord

    Messages:
    3
    • Calling a member a fool breaks our "be nice" rule.
    Of course it does. Merchandise is merchandise. You think US-Canada merchant disputes are rare? There are millions every year.

    It could be a sex doll, a Gandalf shaped dildo, a crack pipe or five vaporizers, it is completely irrelevant.
    Anyone who operates under a different assumption is an ignorant fool and is in for a rude awakening.

    mod note: The BradyY account was created by TigerLord in order to prop up his arguments
     
  4. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    4,567
    Location:
    Oregon
    Fool is a strong word for such a new poster BradyY, there are different laws regarding paraphernalia so its not foolish to assume things might be different in this circumstance. You have supplied/cited NO source to prove otherwise and until you do, its in question for me.

    Edit: This is going off topic. I'm Done.

    Edit: Congrats you baited me off topic again. No more. You win. When you get the $$ let us know :peace:
     
  5. BradyY

    BradyY Alias for TigerLord

    Messages:
    3
    • No trolling. Please do not make posts that disrupt the peace and harmony of this board. Don’t post for or the purpose of starting or promoting a dispute.
    I should have been more precise: "Any business owner who operates under a different assumption is a fool and is in for a rude awakening." Apologies if you felt interpolated.

    You obviously have never ran a company or you would know these things, because these things are things that happen every day. These things.

    This is a simple "he says" vs "she says" case. Buyer says he followed instructions, it broke anyway (in less than 15 days) and says the product is faulty (bad design, overheat, whatever). The merchant says customer is a moron and can't follow instructions. Customer wins. It's how the system works, and it's part of the cost of doing business. If you feel I lacked certainty or gravitas in the choice of my words and would like more proof, there you go: www.google.com.

    The fact that it is a cannabis apparatus is irrelevant anyway because the OP is a legal home grower in his country. Fuck, I should move to Canada really.

    I have absolutely no idea who you are, and I apologize if I ever gave you the impression I care in anyway who you are, including whatever experience you have. You must think yourself very charismatic if you thought a new poster would ever care to waste time and effort to insult a pure stranger nobody.

    These rules apply to ANY business operating under the commerce laws of US and Canada under the umbrella of the CC companies who set the rules. Merchants obey. Unless you're so big that you can dictate the terms. We're talking Amazon and Costco big. Two companies vxhale could learn a lot from apparently.

    I'm not really sure why you keep bringing laws into this, possessing a vaporizer is not a criminal offense in any part of the country here or up with the crazy Canadians. You watch too much CSI and Law & Order. More books, less TV.

    I don't think you understand what you just linked lol.

    This says you have no right to use PayPal to purchase or sell the things you listed. If Paypal thought VapexHale broke the rules they would not let them process transaction to sell the very things they forbid using their gateway services for.

    Hopefully you are not the one running things there :)

    mod note: The BradyY account was created by TigerLord in order to prop up his arguments
     
  6. Seek

    Seek Apprentice Daydreamer

    Messages:
    1,447
    TigerLord: I feel so sorry for your loss - really heartbreaking. I've yet got all my vapes with instructions, and even if the Cloud is pretty simple to use, it still should have the printed manual in the package imo. At least in the US where sometimes people are for example capable of microwaving pets and then sue the maker because it wasn't forbidden in a manual...

    If someone at vapexhale really advised you to TWIST THE HT to unlock - then it was a HUGE mistake from them. Even a common sense advises NOT TO TWIST a ground glass connection, especially when its connected to a heated expensive bamboo and even more escpecially when it's locked. Twisting ground glass joints makes a lot of stress on the glass (especially when locked, then all the stress goes down to the heated glass). Even the vapexhale online manual says you shouldn't twist a HT on a Cloud. To unlock a joint, you should rock it back and forth (that unlocks it easily without any stress on glass). If you didn't get a manual you should read it online before using such an expensive glass device.

    So right now it's hard to tell whose fault this is. One fault is on their side not supplying a manual but also on your side - when you discovered you have no manual you should find one first before using the device. Another hard-to-judge fault is that advise. They did imo use a misleading word "swirl", but in the context it was obvious that they did not mean rotary movement. So it was one wrong word leading to a HUGE MISUNDERSTANDING.

    45W is really not enough, they recommended at least 200W. I would try that first before judging the Cloud.
     
  7. vorrange

    vorrange Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,234
    I think TigerLord has some valid points of concern, and i think VXL should understand that not all buyers have extensive knowledge on all things connected to vaporization.

    His particular problem could have been avoided had he employed the right technique to release the lock, but imo VXL should also instruct his users how to use the equipment and this is a known problem with gong and with the Cloud as we have seen others with the same situation before.

    A sheet explaining some steps and do's and dont's should be available, precisely because of situations like this one. And i don't buy the argument of legal implications because there are a lot of guidelines that would not bring any implications whatsoever.

    It also seems that TigerLord has had more care than most, since he didn't just experiment. Before that he went to the VXL customer care and asked how to proceed.

    One other thing i noticed is that he reported the unit got stuck a lot, which i don't think is normal from what others users report. So there is also a chance that there was some kind of problem with the gong or the HT itself.

    What i don't like at all is the imediate assumption that TigerLord was the one in the wrong and VXL did everything at her reach. If i was in the same situation i would feel insulted, especially if i received a phone call/ultimatum without my issue getting properly addressed.

    IMO, VXL has her share in the problem since there are no real guidelines and warnings about the unit and TigerLord as well since he employed the wrong technique to remove the HT.

    Perhaps TigerLord heard wrong and the customer rep did not say twist but rock, perhaps the HT was leaking and the Gong was always wet, perhaps the bamboo was cracked to begin with.. there is really no way to know for sure.

    What i do know is that, if no one is to blame but the customer ends up paying 150$ for the piece plus everything else.. that is the same as assuming he in fact is the one to blame.

    When you buy a high quality and expensive product, you expect a high quality costumer care.
     
  8. Seek

    Seek Apprentice Daydreamer

    Messages:
    1,447
    I wasn't blaming him that's it's all his fault. He was missing a manual and got a fatally misleading advise. Also the unit or a HT could be faulty - he said the unit was super hot at 9 which sound like Cloud failure semi-responsible for the crack, permanently wet GonG sound like faulty HT or wrong filling technique.

    I've just said he should have tried to find a manual himself (which is easy as its right on the vapexhale site, he could ask for the manual) when the vapexhale failed to provide him one, that could prevent this accident from happening as there is said it's forbidden to twist a HT. But I don't see the correct unlocking technique there in the manual, that should definitely be added.
     
  9. treeman

    treeman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    208
    I really feel for you Tigerlord, must have been a heart wrenching moment when that snapped. I've often thought that the cloud would be better with a recessed female joint and a male-male adapter to make it more compact with less risk to the unit itself.
     
    charliedontsurf likes this.
  10. Seek

    Seek Apprentice Daydreamer

    Messages:
    1,447
    Yes, that would make the Cloud safer and also let you cool down the load at each end of the hit. BUT it would make a HT very unstable, there's no recessed male joint and the male joint is not stable. So HT like that would definitely need a female HydraFoot and could not stand on its own. Also it would make the Cloud one inch taller if the circuitry or heater stay the same size.

    Also it would not preventbreaking the Cloud from twisting the HT, so that sad case would happen anyway.

    So imo a female on the Cloud is not worth it. It would only prevent the "fall on head" damage, but bring more serious problems.
     
  11. elmomuzz

    elmomuzz That just happened...

    Messages:
    638
    A friend of mine got a cloud that only worked for a few weeks. Vapexhale is pressuring him to purchase a "upgrade" to get it back under warranty. They imply that he needs this upgrade if he actually wants a reliable unit. It's not cheap either. What the heck is going on here? This leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
     
    TigerLord and kushcabbage like this.
  12. Seek

    Seek Apprentice Daydreamer

    Messages:
    1,447
    If it died in warrantiable way then I don't see why he should be buying a new Cloud and not getting the upgraded version as wararnty replacement. You mean they've cancelled all warranties for current customers with pre-upgrade Clouds? No, I just can't believe that...
     
  13. elmomuzz

    elmomuzz That just happened...

    Messages:
    638
    They haven't canceled any warranties. But are aknowledging that his generation of cloud are unreliable and he needs to pay to get a decent unit.

    What they need to do is replace all warrantied units with hardware that is reliable. I don't call this a upgrade. It's not the buyers fault they were sold a unreliable design.
     
    olivianewtonjohn and nugghuffer like this.
  14. vape4life

    vape4life Banned for life

    Messages:
    2,020
    $125 for duties and taxes to Canada? I've ordered 4 times from VXL including using express shipping and never once had to pay ANY duties or taxes.
     
    TigerLord likes this.
  15. Seek

    Seek Apprentice Daydreamer

    Messages:
    1,447
    elmomuzz: So they are offering some not very cheap reliability upgrades... That's okay.
    But if your friend's Cloud is already broken - he has paid for a warranty, so he should have the right to get a replacement, right?
     
  16. b0

    b0 Vapor powered

    Messages:
    1,012
    Location:
    Spain
    Exactly what I think. If they're selling unreliable units and know about it, they should exchange that units for reliable ones, it's their fault and the customer MUST NOT pay for it.
     
    olivianewtonjohn and Bob Loblaw like this.
  17. elmomuzz

    elmomuzz That just happened...

    Messages:
    638
    Y
    Yea he just got it in November so plenty of warranty. But he will be getting a flawed unit back and not the current model. Unless they are now offering 2 clouds. Normal and reliable. Are they? Lol
     
  18. vape4life

    vape4life Banned for life

    Messages:
    2,020
    So if warranty is required, do you get a refurb cloud back? This could help explain why newvaper420's replacement was a dud.
     
  19. b0

    b0 Vapor powered

    Messages:
    1,012
    Location:
    Spain
    I think we need someone from VXH to explain what's happening here :shrug: or at least to know his side of the history.
     
    Sinclue and kushcabbage like this.
  20. elmomuzz

    elmomuzz That just happened...

    Messages:
    638
    They include a non disclosure statement. Not that he agreed to it. And they aren't denying fixing his cloud. It's just the money grab they are going for. It ticks me off because I gave it to him as a gift. Why should my friend have to pay $100 to get his gift in a reliable condition? They actually quote the price of the "upgrade" at $200 but "discount" it to $150. After he declined it they came back with a $100 offer.

    I hope me venting about it doesn't tie up him getting it back but I don't feel good about this.
     
    olivianewtonjohn likes this.
  21. Seek

    Seek Apprentice Daydreamer

    Messages:
    1,447
    That actually makes sense. They have plenty of cheap 300$ old units (Said to have 2% failure rate) for warranties so they needto get these out first. They are not that bad, but 2% is still significant. No info on failure rate of new ones, just vapexhale seems to be very believing in them. Imo if he doesn't want to pay for an upgade, he can just get the old one. 2% is still imo low enough to risk it and probably the performance is same with both generations. It is fair, he wouldn't get any worse unit than he had before. Everyone buying a super new unit should expect an upgade coming and when that happens, you just have the old one.
     
  22. vorrange

    vorrange Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,234
    I'm not saying you blamed him, i quoted the post you wrote but as a way to base my post and my opinion. ;)

    About the manual, i did not know there was one in the website, i did not noticed it when i went there but i'm a little distracted that way. :) Still, i think the operator could have mentioned that same information about the manual especially since they don't ship the Cloud with any guidelines at all.

    We are not talking about a weird malfunction here, we are talking about a regular and recurrent problem with gong pieces. If the Cloud has a gong piece that is integral to its function, in my opinion, VXL should warn his costumers about this with a lot more "flare" to prevent them and the costumers to lose money, which is not very good for their business.
    Like i said, people are not obligated to know about the cheats and tips of handling glass pieces.

    They can continue to feel as though they have nothing to change about this, but i think it will cost them a lot more in the end.
     
  23. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,135
    Location:
    Other side of your screen
    I'm surprised there aren't printed instructions accompanying the Cloud and I agree that would be desirable. I don't agree that advising him to twist the locked piece was an error, provided that it was given correctly. If you check online you will find advice to use a gentle twisting while pulling. The caution is against strong twisting without pulling. You'll find the twist-gently-and-pull technique described in a lot of the forum posts about this subject. I went through this search myself when I had an Extreme elbow joint freeze inside a Cyclone bowl, and I found plenty of professionals and experienced glass users advising a gentle twist-and-pull, including some of our own members in the how to free a stuck GonG joint? thread. You'll find more than few professionals advising using a wrench to do the twisting, by the way. E.g. from a lab glass vendor's advice on stuck joints:


    I found this advice repeated in several places. Basically, twisting is by no means a huge mistake if done properly. It's true VXL could provide more information online or in some printed user's guide, but I don't see how they are liable for user error, and it's not clear at all that they gave bad advice. If this happened a lot then I might agree that VXL has some responsibility, but this is an isolated incident.
     
  24. Ripbongs420

    Ripbongs420 vapiff

    Messages:
    420
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    I had the instructions sheet , the same that are on the website, inside of my package. I think his just got though without the sheet. :2c:

    It was a while ago, maybe they stopped shipping them with the manual. :shrug:
     
    nugghuffer and vape4life like this.
  25. sunsett70

    sunsett70 Active Member

    Messages:
    367
    hey guys,

    there's been possible miscommunication, a bit of a slip up by either side, and some allegations that doesn't put VXL is a good light. i have not stepped in VXL's shoes so i can't say i know exactly what they go through.

    i know that this vape is not the 'final' version. neither is the company; they are evolving, along with our 'demands' as customers. Unless it is a clear case of the company consciously putting $ in front of quality at our expense, maybe we should refrain from accusing them of doing so. possible character assassination, in my opinion, can result in serious injury.

    and i am not excusing their (imho) aggressive legal tactics, in this case. but i bet in handling claims, they have experienced unjustified ones (like owner breaking it and just trying for refund or so). imagine the crap they got to thru cause a lot of assholes out there. SM and the guys have always been upfront with us. we're not dealing with a corporation here, they are not Apple, they are not Amazon. they are a couple of vaporist who wanted to chase a dream, and a lot of us here encouraged them. we wanted to. and now they are working their f**kin arses off to try to make that dream a reality. no excuse but i think SM and the guys know that there is still a learning curve for them.

    let VXL have a say to the issues before we decide to crucify them.

    and yes, i think for a luxury/premuim product (a bently/ferrari of vapes, it has been called) not too much to expect a printed manual, do & do nots, what to watch out for etc. VXL cannot expect every buyer to know vape/glass operations. in fact, i think the document should specifically cater for glass idiots :p .

    looking forward to the announcement, SM!

    @Tigerlord - i grieve with you, my brother.

    @elmomuzz - can you confirm the information with your friend? the vxl guy actually said "the cloud is unreliable?" i would certainly like to know if what you currently believe is true. thank you.
     
    TigerLord, slowandsteady and Stino like this.

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