indicandescent
Dismembered Member
Oh, my. Squaredog is gorgeous! Like, whoa.
Thanks Madcap it was our pleasure!
Alright Dogs I've got another hour or two of work I have to get in tonight and then I'll be (mostly) unplugging for the weekend and will be back on Monday.
"Heat soaking" is something we do for approx. 20-40 seconds with a loaded stem bowl in contact with the heating port... so not sure what you mean. Can you explain, please? Thanks!
6079Smith
Well-Known Member
You described heat soaking your stem. @Stevenski was referencing heat soaking entire unit.
If you took that stem and draw from a heater that has just gotten to temp, you are easily able to overwhelm the heat of the heater alone. Once the unit is heat soaked, however, you are no longer relying on just heat from the heater but also from all the heat stored in the wood.
Another way to look at it. If you had a small cup of water and drop an ice cube in, the water temp will change more than in a large glass. The heater is the small glass. Heater and rest of dog, the larger.
Stevenski
Enter the Dragon
Plug it in & let it get nice & warm so the heat soaks through the wood. I get the best out of my UD if I let it heat up for hours or even days so the whole unit is nice & warm. It could be placebo but if the unit is warm that does not rob any heat from the unit so it is all used for extraction. Maybe not the best use of vernacular from me as it does usually refer to a stem.
I can say with confidence that I have been using my UD since my post this afternoon & after a 10 hour session I am absolutely fucked after spending all day using the VapCap before @Madcap79 inspired me to break out some convection goodness. Dear god the GonG through a j Hook is sublime & I am proud I am still in a state where I can type.
@6079Smith thanks for explaining it better than I did
Thanks for clarifying your stated application of "perpetual heat soaking". I have 12 log vapes now, all of varying wood densities, from very light to very dense. I am well familiar with your idea for "perpetual" wood heat soaking, and have personally found the benefit mentioned to be limited to a much shorter duration and effect than one might expect in terms of maintained heat per consecutive draws, and in effect unnecessarily over-burdens the wood and heater when always left on at the higher temps, reducing overall longevity of the unit. Even if you only fully heated your log vape for a few hours prior to a session, the consistent maintenance of temp from 1st draw to last draw might be much less than expected, only because any heat transfer from wood back to the heater port after each draw would be nominal given the time intervals, materials and distance between, (i.e., the loss of heat between draws is lost mostly from the heater tube, and not the wood). In my estimation the cost-to-benefit ratio for this method is greatly over emphasized. Perpetual heat soaking of the wood may be best applied to the comforts of an always-on hand warmer at medium-low temps in winter only... JMO. :-)Plug it in & let it get nice & warm so the heat soaks through the wood. I get the best out of my UD if I let it heat up for hours or even days so the whole unit is nice & warm. It could be placebo but if the unit is warm that does not rob any heat from the unit so it is all used for extraction. Maybe not the best use of vernacular from me as it does usually refer to a stem.
I can say with confidence that I have been using my UD since my post this afternoon & after a 10 hour session I am absolutely fucked after spending all day using the VapCap before @Madcap79 inspired me to break out some convection goodness. Dear god the GonG through a j Hook is sublime & I am proud I am still in a state where I can type.
@6079Smith thanks for explaining it better than I did
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Melting Pot
Sick & Twisted
6079Smith
Well-Known Member
I would agree with you and is the reason for my dimmer and now remote set up. The top of my dog started browning more than I liked, initially, so I changed my ways. Part of it was the copper cup trapping heat, I think, even at lower levels. It doesn't take long for my pup to level off in terms of heat soak and reach it's max temp as determined by voltage, ambient air, wood density/thickness, etc. No continued benefit after this point is reached aside from on demand dog rips- which is pretty damn cool
I took @Stevenski's original comment to be referencing the sheer mass of the square dog taking much longer to soak. Where he and I may differ is in the continued benefit once this point is reached or period of time to get there, though all our dogs are different and some more than others- that square dog literally looks to be ten times the material as my pup... My dog feels so emasculated!
Also know that the vast majority of the wood's heat originating from the heater core radiates outward and is lost into the atmosphere, thereby mitigating it's insulating effects relative to the heater tube to minimal degrees.I would agree with you and is the reason for my dimmer and now remote set up. The top of my dog started browning more than I liked, initially, so I changed my ways. Part of it was the copper cup trapping heat, I think, even at lower levels. It doesn't take long for my pup to level off in terms of heat soak and reach it's max temp as determined by voltage, ambient air, wood density/thickness, etc. No continued benefit after this point is reached aside from on demand dog rips- which is pretty damn cool
I took @Stevenski's original comment to be referencing the sheer mass of the square dog taking much longer to soak. Where he and I may differ is in the continued benefit once this point is reached or period of time to get there, though all our dogs are different and some more than others- that square dog literally looks to be ten times the material as my pup... My dog feels so emasculated!
...that square dog literally looks to be ten times the material as my pup... My dog feels so emasculated!
I've made some bigger Dogs over the years.. some so big they needed casters on the bottom to roll around and had to be used with whips.
Madcap79
Jack of all trades, master of none.
That is the nickname! I believe the Underdog team even referred to it as such.
We did.. it was clearly a good name for that Pup!
6079Smith
Well-Known Member
I agree with the first part, disagree with the second but maybe I'm misunderstanding- are you saying there's no benefit to a heat soaked dog?
Air is a poor conductor, for sure, but that's what we are waiting on when warming up our dogs, no? To create that ambient heat that helps the heater. There's a brief period of time where the heater is max temp but not the dog, this is what I refer to. During this time one would be able more easily overwhelm that smaller available heat.
I would think it is the constant electrical current that keeps the heater core temp refreshed between draws much more so than anything else - 98.5%-to-1.5% or thereabouts guessing, leaving very little credit for any assistance given by the wood to the maintenance of interior higher heat ambiance or conductivity back into the core.
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6079Smith
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to be able to test a naked core and see. Closest I could do is try to overwhelm it during that period of hot-heater-cold-dog. Having done exactly that is partly the reason for my opinion.
I still don't agree but you seem to have a lot of experience and have given some thought to it. I've certainly been wrong before.
Whatever the ratio is... I think we agree that it works fantastically! Working especially well, this morning
Edit: What keeps my Evo ripping while briefly unplugged? I'm betting that square dog would be great for a bit, as well
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@6079Smith @Snappo @Stevenski
All you guys are right to an extent but as with many things the reality isn't entirely straightforward.
When a Dog is first powered up the heating element reaches operating temp in a very short time, less than 30 seconds but the rest of the core and surrounding wooden body are still much cooler and pull the overall level of any air cycling thru the vape down. After a length of time the core and wooden body reach a point of equilibrium temp wise and stay there, this is where you have peak performance of the vape. This time period to equilibrium will vary significantly between different wood densities, mass, ambient air temps, surface type and temp on which the vape is sitting.. even the shape of the vape effects this time period.
This is why we can't advertise a set heat up time that applies to all vapes, since all UDs are different their heat up times are different. Because of this we usually use a 'worst case scenario' when predicting heat up times when in reality most vapes will reach equilibrium considerably faster than that time. We always like to understate things rather than overstate, as consumers we like to be pleasantly surprised by these kinds of things not disappointed by overstated numbers.
Anyways, cool discussion, now I'm going to go back to 'not adulting'.
All you guys are right to an extent but as with many things the reality isn't entirely straightforward.
When a Dog is first powered up the heating element reaches operating temp in a very short time, less than 30 seconds but the rest of the core and surrounding wooden body are still much cooler and pull the overall level of any air cycling thru the vape down. After a length of time the core and wooden body reach a point of equilibrium temp wise and stay there, this is where you have peak performance of the vape. This time period to equilibrium will vary significantly between different wood densities, mass, ambient air temps, surface type and temp on which the vape is sitting.. even the shape of the vape effects this time period.
This is why we can't advertise a set heat up time that applies to all vapes, since all UDs are different their heat up times are different. Because of this we usually use a 'worst case scenario' when predicting heat up times when in reality most vapes will reach equilibrium considerably faster than that time. We always like to understate things rather than overstate, as consumers we like to be pleasantly surprised by these kinds of things not disappointed by overstated numbers.
Anyways, cool discussion, now I'm going to go back to 'not adulting'.
It doesn't really "help" the heater, but rather a fully heat soaked dog will stop absorbing (robbing) as much heat from the core which allows for more heat to be used for making sweet, sweet vapor.
Edit: Yeah, what Dave said!
6079Smith
Well-Known Member
It doesn't really "help" the heater, but rather a fully heat soaked dog will stop absorbing (robbing) as much heat from the core which allows for more heat to be used for making sweet, sweet vapor.
Edit: Yeah, what Dave said!
Semantics, IMO... are we not saying the same thing, differently, here? Not trying to be offensive, I enjoy the debate, here
Edit: removed question that was answered elsewhere
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RUDE BOY
Space is the Place
I'm one of those who only use direct draw stems and don't often vape through a water piece. in my experience they all take a few minutes to recover when using a bubbler.
... But dry I find that my newer 'dogs don't have any noticeable recovery time between hits after the core is hot enough to vape which takes 10 minutes warm-up at most, where as my old core 'dogs seem to need a few minutes wait between hits until the wood is pretty warm to the touch which takes 'em being plugged in at least half an hour in-order to get consistent quick back to back hits (my oldest UD takes 45 minutes or more to get to temp, it's pretty thick and large compared to the others).
... But dry I find that my newer 'dogs don't have any noticeable recovery time between hits after the core is hot enough to vape which takes 10 minutes warm-up at most, where as my old core 'dogs seem to need a few minutes wait between hits until the wood is pretty warm to the touch which takes 'em being plugged in at least half an hour in-order to get consistent quick back to back hits (my oldest UD takes 45 minutes or more to get to temp, it's pretty thick and large compared to the others).
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6079Smith
Well-Known Member
My apologies for the thermal dynamics derail. Sometimes, due to advanced age, I forget where I am.
No apologies necessary!
That's why we're all here, after all, right? You were civil and weren't trolling, that's all one could ask for. I rather enjoy debating things, so long as each party leaves some daylight that they may be wrong... it's when they devolve into arguments that I'm out.
I'm grateful this forum exists for many reasons, among them the level of civility during discussions such as these.
Happy vaping!
Stevenski
Enter the Dragon
Well that was an interesting discussion to read over a cuppa after I passed out last night. I am running a new standard core & my unit has say 10mm thick walls so it may have more wood mass than others I have seen?
FWIW if I am running mine for more than a day I will turn it down to 8-9v for overnights so it gets up to temp quicker when I want to use it. So long as we are all happy with our UD's is all one can ask.
FWIW if I am running mine for more than a day I will turn it down to 8-9v for overnights so it gets up to temp quicker when I want to use it. So long as we are all happy with our UD's is all one can ask.