The Extreme-Q Vaporizer

[oldiebutgoodie]

jackass20 -

It's tough to answer unless having experience with a vaporite to compare to. And density is also somewhat subjective. My experience is the same as J.R.R.Tokin's. I have combustion friends that, when they pull off my Q, get every bit as much as they can handle. The impression I get from reading the forums here is that the general consensus seems to be that the Q's vapor density especially with an elbow pack is good, but not as much as, say, the SSV vapes.

While the size of the element can conceivably be a factor in the equation, what is important in the end is thermal watt conversion and path of heat delivery. So materials used, amount of power, shape and distance, etc. are all factors. There is also the matter of the user preference regarding the materials used in the airflow path, from a health and taste perspective. I took a quick look at the vaporite product line; most of the units appear to be based upon the same ceramic rod platform. I noted that even with a cooling fan, it is recommended that the unit be powered off for 5 minutes after 20 minutes of use. That does imply a lot of watts being pushed to the element (and/or limited heat dissipation). Looking at the design and price point, it may be that you are simply attaching the whip to the end of a vrip-like internal; that would be pretty intense. I'm just speculating here, of course, so take my comment with a grain of salt. But if what you are accustomed to is a vrip type experience, my impression is that the Q doesn't deliver that level of concentration.

 

[m0sh]

Just heads up, my new cover arrived and OMG I was so stoned yesterday like I haven't been that high for so long! it started euphoric and then I thought about my dog who just passed two days ago, I started crying for couple of minutes, I just couldn't stop the tears - this high was to remember , my friend told me he never seen me so high...all from 0.17g of 2 month in a jar top flower white rhino

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

Sorry to hear about the dog but glad you had the EQ to console you

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Just heads up, my new cover arrived and OMG I was so stoned yesterday like I haven't been that high for so long! it started euphoric and then I thought about my dog who just passed two days ago, I started crying for couple of minutes, I just couldn't stop the tears - this high was to remember , my friend told me he never seen me so high...all from 0.17g of 2 month in a jar top flower white rhino

My condolences re your dog. We are so attached to our Pom that I can't even think about her being gone.

That said, good to hear that you dodged that glass shards bullet - that could have been uber bad. Remarkable how much difference a properly working piece of equipment makes!

 

[exmilker]

Hey guys new to the vape scene just got my extreme q. im an ex bong milker thats all i do and the amount i pack in my bowls are almost double of what i put in my extreme q, yet id say the high was there but i didnt feel couchlock like i usually do with my milk shots, so im wondering if any of you guys are able to achieve THAT kind of stoned off ur extreme q or is that the trade off of taking healtyer hits.

what do you guys use more the whip or the bag when ur just trying to get medicated yourself? i still find myself coughing my lungs out and was wondering do any of u guys use a water filtration system or a cooling system for ur vapor to pass through before it gets to you?

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Hey guys new to the vape scene just got my extreme q. im an ex bong milker thats all i do and the amount i pack in my bowls are almost double of what i put in my extreme q, yet id say the high was there but i didnt feel couchlock like i usually do with my milk shots, so im wondering if any of you guys are able to achieve THAT kind of stoned off ur extreme q or is that the trade off of taking healtyer hits.

what do you guys use more the whip or the bag when ur just trying to get medicated yourself? i still find myself coughing my lungs out and was wondering do any of u guys use a water filtration system or a cooling system for ur vapor to pass through before it gets to you?

There is a lot of discussion on this thread about all your questions. Also other threads, since your questions apply to other vapes, too. You might also try using the Search feature. Here's a few quick answers:

First, couch lock is essentially the result of ingesting all the canniboids in the herb. This happens with combustion because of the flame's very high temperature. With vaporizing, you can control the amount and which different canniboids you ingest with the temperature. Take a look here:

http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?id=4135

So the short answer is, if you raise the Q's temp up to about 230C, you will get similar effects as combustion but without the benzenes and other unhealthy by-products of combustion. I encourage you to experiment with lower temps, too. It seems most Q users stay in the 180-210C range. The high is much cleaner. And as you go lower, it is more of a head high than a body high.

Whip vs bag is a matter of personal preference. That said, with the passive draw from the whip where you control the airflow with your lungs, you can get more dense vapor than the fan will deliver to the bag.

And, yes, it is easy to use the Q with water pieces. Again, there is a lot of discussion about that on this thread, so you might want to look for that. There is a lot of ways to do it, but probably the most common is using a 19mm GonG connection, e.g., putting the Q's second glass elbow at the end of the whip and attaching it to a bong or bubbler downstem. A lot of us that do that shorten the whip to reduce the drag.

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

@exmilker. OBG's given you good advice there.

In the late evening I like hitting the higher temps on my Q with water. I use a small bong with diff. It's got 14.4 joints, so I just stick the whip without the mouth piece directly into the down stem. Elbow packing I start at 200c and end up at 235c. This gives me super thick, dense, milky hits that really hit the spot and can induce a real heavy 'stone'.

I think when you first start vaping it takes a while for your body to adjust to the higher levels of THC you're absorbing. This means that you get 'high' a lot more then 'stoned'. I found that balanced out after a while, probably due to tolerance, and then the CBD 'stone' effects were more discernible and controllable.

That really is the greatest thing about vaping imo, you can decide the level you are affected. Another thing you should really get into now you are vaping is to save your ABV. From the ABV you can reclaim any of those unused CBD's & CBN's that give you those 'stoned' feeling and make medibles or QWISO to 'get you exactly where you want to be'.

Your knowledge of the Q will be enhanced a lot by reading through this thread and once you've done that check out the Cooking with Cannabis Section and the Concentrates section to see about medibles and CBD/N extraction from ABV.

 

[thecragus]

Hey guys new to the vape scene just got my extreme q. im an ex bong milker thats all i do and the amount i pack in my bowls are almost double of what i put in my extreme q, yet id say the high was there but i didnt feel couchlock like i usually do with my milk shots, so im wondering if any of you guys are able to achieve THAT kind of stoned off ur extreme q or is that the trade off of taking healtyer hits.

what do you guys use more the whip or the bag when ur just trying to get medicated yourself? i still find myself coughing my lungs out and was wondering do any of u guys use a water filtration system or a cooling system for ur vapor to pass through before it gets to you?

There is a lot of discussion on this thread about all your questions. Also other threads, since your questions apply to other vapes, too. You might also try using the Search feature. Here's a few quick answers:

First, couch lock is essentially the result of ingesting all the canniboids in the herb. This happens with combustion because of the flame's very high temperature. With vaporizing, you can control the amount and which different canniboids you ingest with the temperature. Take a look here:

http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?id=4135

So the short answer is, if you raise the Q's temp up to about 230C, you will get similar effects as combustion but without the benzenes and other unhealthy by-products of combustion. I encourage you to experiment with lower temps, too. It seems most Q users stay in the 180-210C range. The high is much cleaner. And as you go lower, it is more of a head high than a body high.

Whip vs bag is a matter of personal preference. That said, with the passive draw from the whip where you control the airflow with your lungs, you can get more dense vapor than the fan will deliver to the bag.

And, yes, it is easy to use the Q with water pieces. Again, there is a lot of discussion about that on this thread, so you might want to look for that. There is a lot of ways to do it, but probably the most common is using a 19mm GonG connection, e.g., putting the Q's second glass elbow at the end of the whip and attaching it to a bong or bubbler downstem. A lot of us that do that shorten the whip to reduce the drag.

I don't believe this is quite accurate IMHO. If you look at the studies at the Storz and Bickel (Volcano) web site, they contradict this somewhat. Staying under 200C is the magic number for extraction of pure THC. As you move above this temperature, you do begin to get the "couch-lock" drugs (CBD, CDN). These ramp up as the temperature goes past 200C but you also begin to get benzene, toluene, and naphthalene getting to about 80% (compared to combustion) as you get to 226C. Still no carbon monoxide. So there is a trade off as you go past 200C when it comes to health effects. But still, always healthier than combustion....

 

[hogleg]

I have had my eq a few months now and I have been using a different technique for bags than the other stuff written here. has anyone tried this?
I warm up the eq to 230c and load the cyclone bowl, after a few minutes maybe 3-4 I turn fan on 3 and as soon as the bag begins to fill I hit the 50c button and let the bag fill as the temp drops this seems to give nice clouds and very good extraction.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

I don't believe this is quite accurate IMHO. If you look at the studies at the Storz and Bickel (Volcano) web site, they contradict this somewhat. Staying under 200C is the magic number for extraction of pure THC. As you move above this temperature, you do begin to get the "couch-lock" drugs (CBD, CDN). These ramp up as the temperature goes past 200C but you also begin to get benzene, toluene, and naphthalene getting to about 80% (compared to combustion) as you get to 226C. Still no carbon monoxide. So there is a trade off as you go past 200C when it comes to health effects. But still, always healthier than combustion....

A good point; thanks. I should have been more clear. The data in the link above re temps is taken from another post, is repeated in the vaporpedia, and sources a 2001 study from cannibis-med.org. There is a statement in that study which I don't recall being specifically included in the posts, which is sourced from yet a different study, i.e.,

In a recent study, traces of THC were vaporized at temperatures as low as 140C (284F) and the majority of THC vaporized by 185C (365F); benzene and other carcinogenic vapors did not appear until 200C (392F), and cannabis combustion occurred around 230C (446F).

Clearly there is variability in the temp/effects ratio, I would expect as determined by the efficiency of the vaporizing device, the chemical composition of the herb and the herb's condition - and possibly even how well the study was performed (unfortunately, very limited data sets). It's of note that with the Q, combustion does not occur at 230C - the user typically has to get all the way up near 260C which is 55F hotter. All that said, it appears from at least the studies so far that the THC vaporizes in the 150-190C range, CBD's vaporize in the ~180C-205C range, and that some other canniboids vaporize at some point ~210C. The introduction of benzenes into the vapor would be progressive at some point beyond that relative to rising temperature. I have read elsewhere (I'm sure there are others here much more knowledgeable about this than I) that part of the "stone" from combustion comes from the benzenes, so not just the herb; and, that the elimination of the benzenes is one of the noticeable effects when switching from combustion to vaporizing, i.e., that the vaporizing high feel less when in reality the difference is that it is "cleaner". It's not unreasonable to hypothesize that the vaporizer couch lock effect at ~230C may also include some amount of benzene, but given the limited data and the variables it's hard to say that this is conclusive and to what extent. Personally, while I started at 210C and may on occasion pull a couple at that temp for sleep, I have happily settled in to the 180-190C range. With the forthcoming Cloud, a corresponding level of extraction occurs at a lower temp because of its greater efficiency, IMO one of the most attractive features of that product - and an illustration of one of the variables.

EDIT: See posts below for more specifics.

 

[pakalolo]

I don't believe this is quite accurate IMHO. If you look at the studies at the Storz and Bickel (Volcano) web site, they contradict this somewhat. Staying under 200C is the magic number for extraction of pure THC. As you move above this temperature, you do begin to get the "couch-lock" drugs (CBD, CDN). These ramp up as the temperature goes past 200C but you also begin to get benzene, toluene, and naphthalene getting to about 80% (compared to combustion) as you get to 226C. Still no carbon monoxide. So there is a trade off as you go past 200C when it comes to health effects. But still, always healthier than combustion....

What studies at the Storz & Bickel site? URL please.

I am interested particularly in the claims concerning benzene, toluene, and naphthalene. I have searched for a reliable source for this sort of claim for two years now and have always tracked it back to a single casual and unverified claim in one NORML study released in 2001:

Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200 C. (392 F), while combustion occurred around 230 (446F) or above. Traces of THC were in evidence as low as 140 C. (284 F).

Perhaps S&B has done a confirming analysis and not bothered to publicize their findings, but I doubt it.

Edited for punctuation...

 

[xenith]

Hey MrNorml, whats the word on that Vapor Tamer? I might order one for myself, looks pretty sweet.

 

[MrNorml]

Hey MrNorml, whats the word on that Vapor Tamer? I might order one for myself, looks pretty sweet.

It works well. I use it with my Solo as the tubing I have at the end of my straight stem fits exactly INSIDE the male end; I toke off the other end. No problems, works well, but I am absent from it for a bit so can't post pics yet. Worth it? I think so - it does cool it down; lasts for a Solo session then put into freezer while Solo is on charger.

 

[thecragus]

I don't believe this is quite accurate IMHO. If you look at the studies at the Storz and Bickel (Volcano) web site, they contradict this somewhat. Staying under 200C is the magic number for extraction of pure THC. As you move above this temperature, you do begin to get the "couch-lock" drugs (CBD, CDN). These ramp up as the temperature goes past 200C but you also begin to get benzene, toluene, and naphthalene getting to about 80% (compared to combustion) as you get to 226C. Still no carbon monoxide. So there is a trade off as you go past 200C when it comes to health effects. But still, always healthier than combustion....

What studies at the Storz & Bickel site? URL please.

I am interested particularly in the claims concerning benzene, toluene, and naphthalene. I have searched for a reliable source for this sort of claim for two years now and have always tracked it back to a single casual and unverified claim in one NORML study released in 2001:

Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200 C. (392 F), while combustion occurred around 230 (446F) or above. Traces of THC were in evidence as low as 140 C. (284 F).

Perhaps S&B has done a confirming analysis and not bothered to publicize their findings, but I doubt it.

Edited for punctuation...

Try this link:

http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/index.php?...y-system&catid=41:research-studies&Itemid=135

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Try this link:

http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/index.php?...y-system&catid=41:research-studies&Itemid=135

I'm baffled. Maybe I'm just missing something? That link describes a small study performed in SF that concludes vaporizing is a safe alternative to smoking, but at least the summary doesn't make mention of temperatures. Do you have access to the full article where these specifics might be included?

 

[pakalolo]

I don't believe this is quite accurate IMHO. If you look at the studies at the Storz and Bickel (Volcano) web site...

That's not from the Storz & Bickel site. I couldn't find anything at the S&B website, that's why I asked for the URL. You linked instead to an abstract of a study I have to buy for $32. I would be willing to do that, but the abstract makes no mention of benzene, toluene, or naphthalene. You did, however, and you mentioned specific temperatures and percentages. I've been looking for such information for a long time and I've never come across these numbers before. Did your information come from the study you linked? If not, where did you get it?

 

[exmilker]

has anyone tried putting hash or kief into extreme q? if so how and how did it work out?

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

@ exmilker. Works great. Use the elbow pack technique. Put a layer of herb or even ABV. Then your kief/ crumbled hash and then top with another layer of herb/ABV.

 

[exmilker]

@ exmilker. Works great. Use the elbow pack technique. Put a layer of herb or even ABV. Then your kief/ crumbled hash and then top with another layer of herb/ABV.

freaking worked great thanks for the tip

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

No worries - glad to be of assistance

 

[thecragus]

I don't believe this is quite accurate IMHO. If you look at the studies at the Storz and Bickel (Volcano) web site...

That's not from the Storz & Bickel site. I couldn't find anything at the S&B website, that's why I asked for the URL. You linked instead to an abstract of a study I have to buy for $32. I would be willing to do that, but the abstract makes no mention of benzene, toluene, or naphthalene. You did, however, and you mentioned specific temperatures and percentages. I've been looking for such information for a long time and I've never come across these numbers before. Did your information come from the study you linked? If not, where did you get it?

Try:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070515151145.htm

and this link takes you back to the original: http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/vaporizerstudy2.html

But I think the reason there is so little information is mentioned here: http://www.maps.org/research/mmj/

From the last site:

MAPS, in conjunction with the California branch of the National Organization to Reform Marijuana Laws, worked between 1993 and 2009 to sponsor research into the effects of vaporizers and water-pipes in filtering the fumes of inhaled marijuana. Our goal was to determine if water-pipes or vaporizers could reduce the health risks of smoking marijuana.

From 1993 to 2002, we sponsored research at DEA-licensed laboratories testing the content of combusted and vaporized marijuana for cannabinoid particulate and carbon monoxide levels.

Between June 2003 and August 2009, MAPS attempted to purchase marijuana from the National Institute on Drug Abuse for more research with vaporized marijuana. Due to excessive delays and frustration, in August 2009, the laboratory we were working with on the project withdrew its efforts.

MAPS is no longer working on specific vaporizer research, although our protocol for our marijuana/PTSD research requires some subjects to use a vaporizer and others to smoke marijuana.



So I'm probably just repeating information that is a decade old....

Time for the young scientists out there to step up and start testing

 

[pakalolo]

I don't believe this is quite accurate IMHO. If you look at the studies at the Storz and Bickel (Volcano) web site...

That's not from the Storz & Bickel site. I couldn't find anything at the S&B website, that's why I asked for the URL. You linked instead to an abstract of a study I have to buy for $32. I would be willing to do that, but the abstract makes no mention of benzene, toluene, or naphthalene. You did, however, and you mentioned specific temperatures and percentages. I've been looking for such information for a long time and I've never come across these numbers before. Did your information come from the study you linked? If not, where did you get it?

Try:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070515151145.htm

and this link takes you back to the original: http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/vaporizerstudy2.html

But I think the reason there is so little information is mentioned here: http://www.maps.org/research/mmj/

[snippage]

So I'm probably just repeating information that is a decade old....

Time for the young scientists out there to step up and start testing

Yes, you are. It also doesn't have the information you first posted.

I've seen all this before. We're back to the same single casual and unverified claim in a press release about a study from 2001--which says nothing about "benzene, toluene, and naphthalene getting to about 80% (compared to combustion) as you get to 226C." Those are your words and you still haven't said where you got that information.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

I don't believe this is quite accurate IMHO. If you look at the studies at the Storz and Bickel (Volcano) web site...

That's not from the Storz & Bickel site. I couldn't find anything at the S&B website, that's why I asked for the URL. You linked instead to an abstract of a study I have to buy for $32. I would be willing to do that, but the abstract makes no mention of benzene, toluene, or naphthalene. You did, however, and you mentioned specific temperatures and percentages. I've been looking for such information for a long time and I've never come across these numbers before. Did your information come from the study you linked? If not, where did you get it?

I found another study from 2004 here, using liquid and gas chromatography with the Volcano:

http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/jcantgieringervapor.pdf

It's a good albeit technical read. Here are a few key points I gleaned from it that pertains to the question of hydrocarbons (such as benzene):

The Volcano was set at its maximum temp of 226C (S&B recommends using 202C). The study claims that combustion occurs "near 230C" (hmmm). Placing sensors as close as possible to the load, the actual temp through the load ranged from 218C (bottom, at the screen, closest to element) to 155C (top, farthest from element). They did not stir the load, so over successive bags the herb vaporized from the bottom up using a max temp ~218C.

It appears that the hydrocarbons are primarily produced by the process of pyrolysis in generating the smoke: "A striking result in both [liquid and gas] analyses was a lack of significant quantities of pyrolytic-induced analytes in the vapor." And "Comparison runs using combusted cannabis presented a strikingly different picture . . . included [in the gas] were five known PAHs [hydrocarbons]. Cannabinoids represented only 12% of the inferred recovered mass; the remaining 88% consisted of extraneous products of combustion." (The study lists these extraneous compounds; 88%, now that's scary.)

While the study does not explicitly address the temperature at which hydrocarbons are released, it does state the process by which these compounds are released, i.e., pyrolysis, which is induced by combustion. But there is a bit more to it than that. The wording is that there was a "lack of significant quantities" of these compounds in the vapor, not that there was the total absence of these compounds. I take from this that there is some quantity of these compounds released before combustion and hence before pyrolysis. That does leave open the possibility that as the vaporizing temperature would increase, but still prior to combustion, the amount of non-pyrolysis amounts of hydrocarbons released would also increase. Would these amounts between 218C-230C still only be "insignificant"; that's not conclusive from the study, but with a delta of only ~22F, that could be reasonably implied.

A side point in the study concluded that "the efficiency of vaporization is highly sensitive to variations in the [herb] sample and micro-conditions in its environment." So in addition to temperature and device extraction efficiency, there are other variables in the equation such as character of the herb and method of ingestion. I think we knew that.

EDIT: I forgot, the study added that it was not designed to measure other "toxic gases with low molecular weight, such as ammonia, hydrogen cyanide, and carbon monoxide . . . Neither did this study analyze the solid tar phase of the vapor for non-cannabinoids. However, there is sound reason to believe that the total amount of tar was drastically reduced, given the absence of detectable combustion."

EDIT: Side-bar question - If, as the study claims, combustion occurs "near 230C", why doesn't that happen with the Q (and presumably other vape) until ~260C? Is there that much difference between the displayed and actual temp (as apparently there is a delta on the Volcano, albeit smaller)? And if so, is the difference linear down the scale (I would expect not)?

 

[thecragus]

I've seen all this before. We're back to the same single casual and unverified claim in a press release about a study from 2001--which says nothing about "benzene, toluene, and naphthalene getting to about 80% (compared to combustion) as you get to 226C." Those are your words and you still haven't said where you got that information.

Sorry to have left this link out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporizer_(cannabis)

The numbers were obtained at this site.

 

[WatTyler]

.