Dynavap VapCap

[stardustsailor]

After using them for almost a year now I can condifently say they’re superior to the buna N and Viton o-rings.

Like you say, They don’t seem to wear nearly as fast, they remain soft, they have a higher or equal temperature rating and they do not lose their shape.

I remove and swap tips with more frequency now, knowing that the o-rings will hold up. Before, the viton o-rings would take a set and not fit in some of the looser stems and bodies. Or they would eventually abrade to the point that the tip was falling out of some.

We forgot to mention that the condensed oil and resin do not stick to those VMQ o-rings.
They remain always clean !

Maybe I'm wrong on that one,but didn't DV used once to have VMQ o-rings at their very first devices ?
I wonder for what reason they changed to FKM ones.

By now I've seen with my own eyes that the FKM ones are not superior versus the VMQ o-rings.At least for serving their purpose on the DV devices .
On the contrary,the VMQ ones seem to be ( in more than just a few ) ways better,
they also are a tad cheaper and -of course -much safer !





http://polymerdatabase.com/Elastomers/VMQ.html

http://polymerdatabase.com/Elastomers/FKM.html

 

[sag]

I'm old as dirt as well. A dirty old girl. Born in the late fifies. However, I recently discovered a wonderful new face cream and I'm looking younger and younger. If this keeps up, soon I'll look like a 12 year old.

Ha! I was born in the forties...I could use a little of that cream...maybe in gallon jugs. Maybe for more than my face

 

[Winegums]

We forgot to mention that the condensed oil and resin do not stick to those VMQ o-rings.
They remain always clean !

Maybe I'm wrong on that one,but didn't DV used once to have VMQ o-rings at their very first devices ?
I wonder for what reason they changed to FKM ones.

By now I've seen with my own eyes that the FKM ones are not superior versus the VMQ o-rings.
On the contrary,the VMQ ones seem to be ( in more than just a few ) ways better,
they also are a tad cheaper and -of course -much safer !





http://polymerdatabase.com/Elastomers/VMQ.html

http://polymerdatabase.com/Elastomers/FKM.html

This bit from those pages is what makes me wonder why they went with viton as well

“However, at high service temperatures FKMs are weak, so that the design must prevent any high loads.”

Vapcap o-rings are a firm compression set and experience regular high temperatures. In other words it is not a good situation for viton. Where on the other hand, silicone has excellent flexibilty and resistance to loads at high temperatures.

 

[Skunkport]

According to those properties sheets, FKM has better strengh, abrasion resistance, water resistance, mineral oil resistance, flame resistance and (which I believe was the main reason) better Chemical resistance. Meaning you can clean your vapcap with ISO and the FKM rings will be fine.

 

[Copacetic]

That striping or banding is great! If you’re playing, can you do one of those with that striping the entire length of the stem?

I could

 

[Winegums]

(which I believe was the main reason) better Chemical resistance. Meaning you can clean your vapcap with ISO and the FKM rings will be fine.

From a normal use stand point that’s like a volcanologist taking sandals to a volcano incase his shoes get wet.

 

[Skunkport]

I think the higher flame resistance, temperature resistance (the bit you quoted refers to FKM at over 250c) and strength makes it more like wearing boots instead of those shoes. ;-)

 

[kushkush]

When the concentrates warm up in your pocket they will drip and melt. This could glue the stash together or otherwise make a mess.

Even with just bud in the stash there’s the issue of smell when you have it in your pocket. Warm ground bud reeks in my experience. Someone will no doubt be near you and mention “that smells like good stuff” in a best case senario.

Never carry anything in pockets, just in my purse. Hoping you don’t, though.

 

[stardustsailor]

According to those properties sheets, FKM has better strengh, abrasion resistance, water resistance, mineral oil resistance, flame resistance and (which I believe was the main reason) better Chemical resistance. Meaning you can clean your vapcap with ISO and the FKM rings will be fine.

That's why they should be used at spaceships ,UFOs,Mars colonial base A/C ,etc ....
But for my VapCaps silicone o-rings are a much more preferable alternative.

VMQ also is not attacked by ISO.

https://tss-static.com/remotemedia/...ipt/catalogsbrochures/mat_chem_comp_gb_en.pdf

https://www.cambridgereactordesign.com/ammonite/pdf/Chemical-Compatability.pdf

When they denote "flame resistant" they do not mean that the o-rings resist to flame .
Instead what is meant is that in case of high temperatures the o-rings will not burst into flames.
Flame -resistant materials will not self-ignite .
Flame resistant materials are inherently non-flammable.
They have flame resistance because of their chemical structures.


Silicone is as "flame resistant " as FKM ,BTW.
So ,probably no ,that was not the reason that made DV to change the o-rings for.

 

[mrb]

Nice job there !
Really cool !

I see that you also use silicone o-rings.
How to you find them to be ?

They're fine. Haven't really analyzed them. I had the black ones from DV 420 2017 on my daily driver for over a year with no issues despite much exposure to iso cleaning and torch cleaning.

Only bought the red ones because i found that the very tight SBM stem i'd used for 8 months had sqashed the orings to the point that the tip just dropped out of my other stems. It's a pain when you have a body that tight, I've since given it away.

These red silicone ones perform great so far. Not replaced any yet (3 months or so) and i swap parts quite a lot these days..

That striping or banding is great! If you’re playing, can you do one of those with that striping the entire length of the stem?

Thanks! Very happy with this one. Tempted to drill a carb hole and keep it..

With 4 different finishes in this one it was quite time consuming. Doing one the whole way up would probably take 3 hrs start to finish. Just not worth it for the prices I've been asking, and it wouldn't end up as something I'm likely to keep so... no, sorry.

I'm open to suggestions and requests - but, especially if it's a complicated suggestion/request, it's not necessarily viable for me in a money making vs time sense. This is why I've always shyed away from being labled an accessory marker here. I'm happy to offer for sale the designs i make for my own fun, but the pressure and time of making custom stems doesn't work for me at anywhere near the prices im currently asking. Sorry

There'll be a final round of my stems for sale in the coming days, after that I'm out of titanium again and thinking again about stashes and heaters..

 

[Winegums]

Never carry anything in pockets, just in my purse. Hoping you don’t, though.

When you design a product you have to think about multiple use cases. I don’t want someone to have a mess happen with expensive concentrates.

I think the higher flame resistance, temperature resistance (the bit you quoted refers to FKM at over 250c) and strength makes it more like wearing boots instead of those shoes. ;-)

The way it was punctuated made it seem like you were talking about the chemical resistance.

Are you torching your o-rings? that’s the only reason to have flame resistance that I can think of.

Temperature resistance at the high end is equal or better for silicone actually. Viton’s properties change at high temperature where silicone stays relatively the same.

 

[kushkush]

When you design a product you have to think about multiple use cases. I don’t want someone to have a mess happen with expensive concentrates.

I just hate the idea that “it can’t be done.” Just a very small silicone container with a lid that would slip into that hole would suffice for small amounts of solid concentrates (not oils). Even making two of those holes come together (if necessary) to hold a silicone concentrate container would be nice. Then you’d have another 4 holes for bud.

 

[Skunkport]

Silicone is as "flame resistant " as FKM ,BTW.
So ,probably no ,that was not the reason that made DV to change the o-rings for.

The data sheets that you posted give silicone's flame resistance as 'good' and FKM's as 'excellent', so according to your information, it's not as good.
Also I never said that was the reason, I said chemical resistance was their reason.

Flame resistance is NOT whether a materiel will self-ignite, it actually does mean that the materiel will resist burning in direct flame.

The way it was punctuated made it seem like you were talking about the chemical resistance.

Are you torching your o-rings? that’s the only reason to have flame resistance that I can think of.

Temperature resistance at the high end is equal or better for silicone actually. Viton’s properties change at high temperature where silicone stays relatively the same.

I was talking about the chemical resistance, since that's the reason Dynavap actually gave. Apparently Silicone swells up when exposed to ISO, so you'd have to wait for it to shrink back down before refitting.

Temperature resistance only reaches 300c for special grades of silicone, standard FKM can withstand up to 300c.

You have exposed o-rings at the end of your tip, that's really not far from a flame - especially for stoned people.

That's assuming the 'solvent' George talks about is ISO, he actually advises to clean it with...dairy cream?!

Here's where he explains the change, I knew I'd seen it somewhere but it took me a while to find the right video:- 1m24s is the O-ring section.

 

[dodgy_b]

No more carbon fiber stems? Bummer.....

Oh bummer indeed! Discontinued?

 

[Lady V]

Hope we see this in Greece and all over the world soon as well, although judging from the general mentality I think we'll still need plenty of years...

That damned general mentality... Nope, it's not 2018 here... It's not even the 21st century.

First true democracy ?
Who ?
In ancient Athens you mean ?
Because at Sparta and the rest of Greece ,things were quite different ...

In ancient Athens of Pericles they used to talk about "Democracy" ,
while every each one of them had at least one slave in HIS house
(as also democracy was something alien for women of the time ) .

One of the best greek jokes ,ever !

And quite successful ,too .
This amazing prank keeps fooling millions , if not billions, of people until today.

Oh yes! I second that! The whole Greek democracy thing is just a perpetuated myth. Filtered and idealized through the eyes of Western European civilization, digested by most Greeks and spewed back in one of the most entitled and frankly uneducated ways.

On the age thing... I know I ain't that old yet (33) but I wish the social mentality wasn't so youth oriented. I grew up with my grandparents actively present in my childhood so I had the chance to understand the experience and wisdom age can bring. Of course the body doesn't perform the same way as it ages but there's so much beauty to a face and body sculpted by time and life. I'm pretty sure most people here felt they were most in touch with themselves and abilities after they hit their 40's.
So what I'm trying to say is forget all about those gallons of face cream and enjoy the privilege of ageing.

@mrb those stems of yours... damn! They look like delicious candies!
@Copacetic that stash looks divine! Gorgeous!

My tiny VC family (as always just to stay on topic).
The Omni got no legs...

 

[stardustsailor]

The data sheets that you posted give silicone's flame resistance as 'good' and FKM's as 'excellent', so according to your information, it's not as good.
Also I never said that was the reason, I said chemical resistance was their reason.

Flame resistance is NOT whether a materiel will self-ignite, it actually does mean that the materiel will resist burning in direct flame.

I'm sorry ,I did not quite understood that you 're referring to chemical resistance .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But please do elaborate more on this one :

How is possible for a material that starts decomposing at aprox. 350-400 °C to
be able to withstand a flame from ,say ,a torch lighter that can reach a temperature of 1500°C ?


Flame Resistance
Flame resistance is the property of a substance not to flame in case of contacting with fire in the air. Materials can be divided into non-flammable materials, fire-retardant materials and flammable materials according to their reaction to fire.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/flame-resistance
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW,can you provide more info about "Silicone swells up when exposed to ISO, so you'd have to wait for it to shrink back down before refitting. "

Last I 've checked silicone o-rings were totally immune to ISO.
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Isopropanol#mat

Cheers.

 

[Skunkport]

I'm sorry ,I did not quite understood that you 're referring to chemical resistance .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But please do elaborate more on this one :

How is possible for a material that starts decomposing at aprox. 350-400 °C to
be able to withstand a flame from ,say ,a torch lighter that can reach a temperature of 1500°C ?

The same way your herb that combusts at 200-230c can withstand an indirect flame that can reach 1500c. It's not the temperature of the flame that matters, it's the temperature of the actual materiel and it takes time for heat to transfer. Your VapCap never reaches 1500c either and that sits in the flame.

Flame Resistance
Flame resistance is the property of a substance not to flame in case of contacting with fire in the air. Materials can be divided into non-flammable materials, fire-retardant materials and flammable materials according to their reaction to fire.

So...you posted that to confirm I was correct about flame resistance? Because that's what it says.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW,can you provide more info about "Silicone swells up when exposed to ISO, so you'd have to wait for it to shrink back down before refitting. "

Last I 've checked silicone o-rings were totally immune to ISO.
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Isopropanol#mat

Cheers.

That link doesn't say anything about silicone being immune to ISO. It doesn't list it as something that damages it, because it doesn't, it just makes it swell up.

It's actually used to fit silicone gaskets, they are deliberately swollen with ISO or other solvents before fitting over something, so they then shrink tight when the solvent evaporates. No permanent damage is done.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376738898002890

 

[mrb]

Can I ask anyone with digital scales to weigh the 5th and 6th get Ti-tips? The two most recent 5 fin designs.

I ask because, while I'm sure it could largely be optical illusion, the newer design with the rounded fins looks like it has a lot more mass to me. I am interested in how different they actually are. Someone already disagreed with me, suggesting they're probably quite similar in mass, but I can't believe it But performance is so similar it would suggest they do have similar mass? Just curious, not desperate to find out


EDIT:
Oh, And while I'm here, I have to take back much of what I recently said about DV's new website photos:
I don't know if they've added more, or I just repeatedly saw a limited selection that first day it was being discussed, but they are now a more varied selection that is not as desperately narrow in it's user depiction as the first 3 photos I repeatedly saw.
I'm not saying some of the observations don't still stand - but if I'd seen the current selection back then, I would never have chimed in with my slightly negative comments about the issue.

 

[KidFated.]

Can I ask anyone with digital scales to weigh the 5th and 6th get Ti-tips? The two most recent 5 fin designs.

I ask because, while I'm sure it could largely be optical illusion, the newer design with the rounded fins looks like it has a lot more mass to me. I am interested in how different they actually are. Someone already disagreed with me, suggesting they're probably quite similar in mass, but I can't believe it But performance is so similar it would suggest they do have similar mass? Just curious, not desperate to find out

I can after work, I’ll even weigh the 7 fin and 7 fin LE for ya.

 

[stark1]

That damned general mentality... Nope, it's not 2018 here... It's not even the 21st century.




Oh yes! I second that! The whole Greek democracy thing is just a perpetuated myth. Filtered and idealized through the eyes of Western European civilization, digested by most Greeks and spewed back in one of the most entitled and frankly uneducated ways.

On the age thing... I know I ain't that old yet (33) but I wish the social mentality wasn't so youth oriented. I grew up with my grandparents actively present in my childhood so I had the chance to understand the experience and wisdom age can bring. Of course the body doesn't perform the same way as it ages but there's so much beauty to a face and body sculpted by time and life. I'm pretty sure most people here felt they were most in touch with themselves and abilities after they hit their 40's.
So what I'm trying to say is forget all about those gallons of face cream and enjoy the privilege of ageing.

@mrb those stems of yours... damn! They look like delicious candies!
@Copacetic that stash looks divine! Gorgeous!

My tiny VC family (as always just to stay on topic).
The Omni got no legs...

Eating lots and lots of ice cream keeps my worldview young, and my
VapCap keep me slurping for more!


Everybody screams, for ice cream! Where the old gets younger—and the young are out to lunch.

 

[stardustsailor]

The same way your herb that combusts at 200-230c can withstand an indirect flame that can reach 1500c. It's not the temperature of the flame that matters, it's the temperature of the actual materiel and it takes time for heat to transfer. Your VapCap never reaches 1500c either and that sits in the flame.

Yes,but not the same situation not the same material.
The cap and the tip are the ones in direct contact with the flame ,and both can withstand much higher temp than the one ,the flame can possibly raise.
Elastomer o-rings are not like Titanium or stainless steel.
Under direct flame they will start to decompose IMMEDIATELY .

So...you posted that to confirm I was correct about flame resistance? Because that's what it says.

If by stating "Flame resistance is NOT whether a materiel will self-ignite, it actually does mean that the materiel will resist burning in direct flame. " you actually meant " Flame resistance is the property of a substance not to flame in case of contacting with fire in the air. ",then I'm really sorry.
i've misunderstood you again.For me "resist burning " means that does not get burned easily ,
but then again English is not my native language.And I did not state that "Flame resistance is NOT whether a materiel will self-ignite "

,but
"Instead what is meant is that in case of high temperatures the o-rings will not burst into flames.
Flame -resistant materials will not self-ignite .
Flame resistant materials are inherently non-flammable.
They have flame resistance because of their chemical structures. "

That link doesn't say anything about silicone being immune to ISO. It doesn't list it as something that damages it, because it doesn't, it just makes it swell up.

It's actually used to fit silicone gaskets, they are deliberately swollen with ISO or other solvents before fitting over something, so they then shrink tight when the solvent evaporates. No permanent damage is done.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376738898002890

How about that one then :
https://newdealseals.com/app/uploads/2017/11/NewDealSeals-O-Ring-Handbook-2014.pdf

page 60.Silicone rated 1 for Isopropyl alcohol.
Which means :
1= Excellent: No more than 15% swell. Any softening or surface degradation is
minimal. Material should perform well in all but the most extreme conditions.
(pg.33 )

Myself never noticed such a thing .
And I leave my VC parts dipped in ISO over night ,when I clean it .
O-rings included.
Never noticed the slightest change .

cheers.

 

[Skunkport]

Yes,but not the same situation not the same material.
The cap and the tip are the ones in direct contact with the flame ,and both can withstand much higher temp than the one ,the flame can possibly raise.
Elastomer o-rings are not like Titanium or stainless steel.
Under direct flame they will start to decompose IMMEDIATELY .

No, they won't. I just torched a silicone baking tray, it took 2-3 seconds before the silicone started to oxidise white where the flame was touching. When I moved the torch away after about 5 seconds, there was a layer of white which wiped off, the silicone under the white appeared undamaged although hot to the touch and slightly sticky.
I don't have any FKM to test except the rings in my VapCap and I'm not doing that lol

If by stating "Flame resistance is NOT whether a materiel will self-ignite, it actually does mean that the materiel will resist burning in direct flame. " you actually meant " Flame resistance is the property of a substance not to flame in case of contacting with fire in the air. ",then I'm really sorry.
i've misunderstood you again.For me "resist burning " means that does not get burned easily ,
but then again English is not my native language.And I did not state that "Flame resistance is NOT whether a materiel will self-ignite "

,but
"Instead what is meant is that in case of high temperatures the o-rings will not burst into flames.
Flame -resistant materials will not self-ignite .
Flame resistant materials are inherently non-flammable.
They have flame resistance because of their chemical structures. "

Fair enough if english isn't your native language arguing semantics is pointless, but those 2 statements mean the exact same thing. 'fire in the air' is probably a bad google translation of 'direct flame in an oxygenated environment'.
It is specifically saying that it will resist burning in a direct flame. It is not talking about self-ignition.
Self-ignition temperatures are ALWAYS higher than the Flash Point of a substance. The Flash Point is the temperature at which something will ignite if contacted by direct flame.

1= Excellent: No more than 15% swell. Any softening or surface degradation is
minimal. Material should perform well in all but the most extreme conditions.
(pg.33 )

So you've confirmed that I'm right about silicone swelling in ISO too, thanks but you don't need to confirm it to me, I already knew!

 

[stardustsailor]

No, they won't. I just torched a silicone baking tray, it took 2-3 seconds before the silicone started to oxidise white where the flame was touching. When I moved the torch away after about 5 seconds, there was a layer of white which wiped off, the silicone under the white appeared undamaged although hot to the touch and slightly sticky.
I don't have any FKM to test except the rings in my VapCap and I'm not doing that lol

Fair enough if english isn't your native language arguing semantics is pointless, but those 2 statements mean the exact same thing. 'fire in the air' is probably a bad google translation of 'direct flame in an oxygenated environment'.
It is specifically saying that it will resist burning in a direct flame. It is not talking about self-ignition.
Self-ignition temperatures are ALWAYS higher than the Flash Point of a substance. The Flash Point is the temperature at which something will ignite if contacted by direct flame.

So you've confirmed that I'm right about silicone swelling in ISO too, thanks but you don't need to confirm it to me, I already knew!

Ok ,there's no need to continue further this .
Will not help or contribute further to the FC community knowledge base in any possible way.

Just a note only.
Flash temperature is a term ( as also an attribute ) used for volatile materials.
I'm not quite sure where exactly it applies in our topic.

Cheers.

 

[Skunkport]

Flash point is the most relevant term I could think of, the meaning fits fairly well.

Let me put this in terms of weed.

If you touch direct flame to dry weed, it sets on fire, even if it's cold.

If you heat weed up without an ignition source, ie flame, it doesn't set on fire until over 200c.

That doesn't mean weed has fire resistance at lower temperatures than 200c.


The point at which a substance can be set on fire by direct flame is lower than the temperature a substance will self-ignite.

 

[Winegums]

The data sheets that you posted give silicone's flame resistance as 'good' and FKM's as 'excellent', so according to your information, it's not as good.
Also I never said that was the reason, I said chemical resistance was their reason.

Flame resistance is NOT whether a materiel will self-ignite, it actually does mean that the materiel will resist burning in direct flame.






I was talking about the chemical resistance, since that's the reason Dynavap actually gave. Apparently Silicone swells up when exposed to ISO, so you'd have to wait for it to shrink back down before refitting.

Temperature resistance only reaches 300c for special grades of silicone, standard FKM can withstand up to 300c.

You have exposed o-rings at the end of your tip, that's really not far from a flame - especially for stoned people.

That's assuming the 'solvent' George talks about is ISO, he actually advises to clean it with...dairy cream?!

Here's where he explains the change, I knew I'd seen it somewhere but it took me a while to find the right video:- 1m24s is the O-ring section.

I’ve never experienced the swelling you’re speaking of? Maybe it’s more noticeable with thicker cross sections. I always take off the o-rings when doing deep cleaning anyways. Now days I don’t even bother with Isopropyl alcohol, I hot swab after hitting a dry chamber.

The point is that the viton changes properties at high temp. It starts to lose its shape, harden and otherwise degrade.

I have silicone o-rings that I’ve used for months with the mold flashing still visible. Viton would be flat as pancake, worn smooth and hard as a rock.

As for accidentally torching the O-ring, you would have to be hitting the body or stem with the flame to also hit that o-ring. After a year or so of watching this thread I’ve yet to hear of any of us FCers melting the exposed o-ring. Further, viton is far more harmful if you burn it than the silicone.