Discontinued Thermovape Cera (Original thread, closed because of chaos)

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OF

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I'm starting to think that having that spare would really be a weight off my mind.

I'll shoot the help team an email and see what they can do.

I agree, a spare is an important part of the kit IMO. However, like you car, it doesn't have to be the best spare in town. All it has to do usually is let you keep vaping until the primary battery is charged again. Depending on your situation that might not be too demanding?

By all means contact TV to up your order if you wish, I'm sure they'll be happy to take more of your money, but you might already have a useful backup?

The ceramic encapsulation was a great choice - what killed the T1 for me was radiant heat, it's not predominantly convection unless you time it with skill, so the learning curve should be significantly easier with the Cera range.

I expect a significant improvement with Cera in some areas, but I seriously doubt it will mitigate much of the skill needed to use it. I expect to still need three steps. And as I suspect the heater will have been cut back a bit (due to lower heat losses to the outside and desire for longer battery life) that core still has to make working temperature and a significant (but probably a bit lower) volume of heated air will need to be drawn through in step 2 to heat the load to vaping before the hit.

That is I expect there will still be a lot of user skill controlling the unit, the 'learning curve', while perhaps a bit easier, will still be real for new owners.

Soon we should know....if not for sure, at least have more clues.

OF
 
OF,
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Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
It should be soon unless you are getting it with the pre-orders for xmas. They made it seem like yours will be soon. Of course we want it done right before you get it. It will be nice since if there are issues they can fix them before mass production.
 

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
When is yours coming OF?

When it's ready I guess. I don't really want it before then you know.....


No schedule yet. Anytime now is just fine with me....

OF

The website says they'll start shipping in early December, but ThermoCore Tim wrote:

We plan to have an AC adapter in the future, although there really isn't much need for one with the battery life being so good. Once we get them to OF and the rest of our beta testers you'll be surprised how long they go between charges.


It's impossible to complete a meaningful beta test before they say they'll be shipping the Cera. Beta testing for the Cera should have been finished by now. If OF is to be a beta tester and he doesn't have one already, I think I know who the beta testers will be. ;)
 

Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
In that case paka we will be awaiting your reviews as well:brow:
 
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OF

Well-Known Member
It's impossible to complete a meaningful beta test before they say they'll be shipping the Cera. Beta testing for the Cera should have been finished by now. If OF is to be a beta tester and he doesn't have one already, I think I know who the beta testers will be. ;)

Sorry, Pak, unless you know something I don't I can't agree with that take. Beta test was never planned to be all that long in calendar days, it's there to test for fatal flaws in the pilot run which is in process. It's a risk game, problems could lead to scrapping parts or even reworking assemblies.

The idea is to get a number of units into different tester's hands. I'm not the only one, of course, usually you don't know the others, this time might be different. We'll be chosen for a spectrum of usage 'styles' I would assume (medical, recreational, modest, 'cloud chasers', chronic, and so on). Parallel to us will be lifetime testing, trying to wear stuff out. If we (collectively) hit a rock, and it's a big enough one to make a mess of the plan somehow, it might not be as merry a Christmas as we hope.....

Anyway, I'd normally expect a week or two to find a fatal error in mine, but not much more than that. I'd keep testing after that no doubt.....duty is duty you know. But I'm not worried about the timeline, maker or product.

Well, maybe I'm a little worried about Tim. Then again, who isn't?

Curious about it all? Yeah, I'm every bit of that.

OF
 

JoeKickass

Well-Known Member
So much doubletalk... did OF and Paka alredi get their beta units and are just playing dumb???
 
JoeKickass,

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
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Sorry, Pak, unless you know something I don't I can't agree with that take. Beta test was never planned to be all that long in calendar days, it's there to test for fatal flaws in the pilot run which is in process. It's a risk game, problems could lead to scrapping parts or even reworking assemblies.

The idea is to get a number of units into different tester's hands. I'm not the only one, of course, usually you don't know the others, this time might be different. We'll be chosen for a spectrum of usage 'styles' I would assume (medical, recreational, modest, 'cloud chasers', chronic, and so on). Parallel to us will be lifetime testing, trying to wear stuff out. If we (collectively) hit a rock, and it's a big enough one to make a mess of the plan somehow, it might not be as merry a Christmas as we hope.....

Anyway, I'd normally expect a week or two to find a fatal error in mine, but not much more than that. I'd keep testing after that no doubt.....duty is duty you know. But I'm not worried about the timeline, maker or product.

Well, maybe I'm a little worried about Tim. Then again, who isn't?

Curious about it all? Yeah, I'm every bit of that.

OF

I don't know anything about Thermovape's beta testing, but I know a bit about beta testing, having participated in, designed, managed, and especially documented dozens of beta tests since the 60s, mostly for software but also some electronics. I don't recall ever being involved in a beta test that was completed in a month.

So much doubletalk... did OF and Paka alredi get their beta units and are just playing dumb???

If I were in the beta programme then I might not be allowed to comment, but I'm not in it. ThermoCore Tim named OF as a beta tester but he says he hasn't got one yet, see above.
 

OF

Well-Known Member
I don't know anything about Thermovape's beta testing, but I know a bit about beta testing, having participated in, designed, managed, and especially documented dozens of beta tests since the 60s, mostly for software but also some electronics. I don't recall ever being involved in a beta test that was completed in a month.

Yup, some timelines are longer (or shorter) than others. I think there's a lot of difference between hardware and software, having been involved in both I tend to think software is usually a shorter timeframe proposition. Remember, this is really V2.0 coming out. Hardware tends to transfer forward 'better', that is the impacts of changes are easier to forecast. With software there's more testing needed to see if the fixes have introduced other problems. Sometimes.

That said, I've been involved in such tests that took a few days on 'the other end' for definitive field tests. And some that took literally months to collect enough data to say if the product was ready for release. This sort of product I'd expect to get a few weeks as one of many testers. I'd return two types of 'failures' (worst case, of course...). Fatal and non fatal. As would the other testers. If you look at the graph of time along the bottom and failures up the side you see a sharp rise at the start with a slow delay over time. The chances of finding a problem at the start are higher than later on. TV sets, people and bad designs tend to die quickly early on (often called 'infant mortality') but if they get to be say half a year old for TVs or a few years old for people the chance of making it through the next year is pretty good (that is to say the failure chance is low).

Knowing this you can stack the deck in a way. There's a much bigger chance that say one of six of us (assuming that's the number, I suspect it'll be at least that big) will find a problem in the first two weeks than one specific guy might find in a couple of years. Or so I understand the AQL guys. It's a risk/benefit thing. Someone weighs the risk that this test will miss a serious problem until after a couple hundred bad units get out that have to be dealt with (picking yet more numbers from the air) against the cost of doing yet more testing. Not my decision, but I don't find the timeline alarming or out of my experience.


If I were in the beta programme then I might not be allowed to comment, but I'm not in it. ThermoCore Tim named OF as a beta tester but he says he hasn't got one yet, see above.

Yup, that's my take as well. This is kinda new for me, I'm not used to being named up front. They must have some kind of confidence 'cuz if I find something worth noting I'm gonna note it most likely. I seriously doubt either of us would say we didn't have one when we did. That would be a lie. "No comment" is more what I'd expect. But if you say you don't have one, I believe you, same as I hope you do me.

Thanks.

So much doubletalk... did OF and Paka alredi get their beta units and are just playing dumb???

No need to fake it, JKA. I can prove I'm dumb, no playing about it.

OF
 

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Yup, that's my take as well. This is kinda new for me, I'm not used to being named up front. They must have some kind of confidence 'cuz if I find something worth noting I'm gonna note it most likely. I seriously doubt either of us would say we didn't have one when we did. That would be a lie. "No comment" is more what I'd expect. But if you say you don't have one, I believe you, same as I hope you do me.

I'm sure you already know this, but for the benefit of those who've never been involved in one, just because ThermoCore Tim named you as a beta tester doesn't mean they'll let you comment on your experience. If they do, I'll be impressed. That would indeed reflect a high level of confidence in their product.

I'm still bound by certain non-disclosure agreements. Some of them never expire, although it's doubtful anyone cares any more. None of them involve Thermovape.
 
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Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
But isn't the point, besides from us not knowing he is beta, for him to review and tell the forum what he thinks? So now when he tells us we will know he is also ONE of the testers. I think most of us assumed it anyhow.
 

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
But isn't the point, besides from us not knowing he is beta, for him to review and tell the forum what he thinks? So now when he tells us we will know he is also ONE of the testers. I think most of us assumed it anyhow.

No, beta testers aren't usually reviewers. A beta tester might write a review later (one would hope with disclosure of that fact) but would (or should at least) report using a different set of criteria.

Beta is the last round of testing before the product goes out the door. A good beta tester is looking for bugs and has a rigorous method for documenting what the bug is and how to reproduce it. One of the fun things about beta testing is trying to find ways to use the product that the developers didn't anticipate. Sometimes this is not hard, unfortunately. Developers often react to bug reports of this nature with irritation and admonishments that you're not supposed to use it like that.
 

OF

Well-Known Member
I'm sure you already know this, but for the benefit of those who've never been involved in one, just because ThermoCore Tim named you as a beta tester doesn't mean they'll let you comment on your experience. If they do, I'll be impressed. That would indeed reflect a high level of confidence in their product.

I'm still bound by certain non-disclosure agreements. Some of them never expire, although it's doubtful anyone cares any more. None of them involve Thermovape.

Exactly right, Brother Pak, this is a new one on me. Beta Testers are usually closet types. Undercover. G did a similar, but very different, thing the other day when he had Sinclue and I test the 8 prototype and told the world ahead of time. It had some very public problems, since G had set it up for public reports, from which it has thus far not recovered. I guess that leant him!

We (Tim, Noah and I) discussed this several months back when they asked me if I would test the new product. Normally it's like Pak says, sometimes you're allowed to say in broad terms what you did (like when I've discussed LV Evolution and LV Revolution testing) sometimes you're not allowed to speak of it at all. Like Pak there are questions in my past I can't answer.....some of them in projects that never happened.

Several for companies that no longer exist....I wonder if they count? Pretty boring and obsolete stuff anyway. Not really James Bond stuff.

This one is very different, one I've never done this before. Since they elected to declare it, the exceptional agreement is full disclosure on this (of things I find). Folks are sure to press me (both publicly and privately) for details. Very cool, IMO. They are very confident it seems. Understand I still know none of the details past what we've been shown.

But isn't the point, besides from us not knowing he is beta, for him to review and tell the forum what he thinks? So now when he tells us we will know he is also ONE of the testers. I think most of us assumed it anyhow.

I suspect that's exactly what they are thinking. They're looking for me to put useful information in user's hands as early as possible to aid their decision to buy. Gets the word out quicker, but has risks if that turns out to be bad news.

As far as assumptions go, I have it on very good authority I'm secretly in the pay of TV so it's entirely reasonable to assume most anything I guess.....except that I can be trusted if that's really the case (which it's still not....).

No, beta testers aren't usually reviewers. A beta tester might write a review later (one would hope with disclosure of that fact) but would (or should at least) report using a different set of criteria.

Beta is the last round of testing before the product goes out the door. A good beta tester is looking for bugs and has a rigorous method for documenting what the bug is and how to reproduce it. One of the fun things about beta testing is trying to find ways to use the product that the developers didn't anticipate. Sometimes this is not hard, unfortunately. Developers often react to bug reports of this nature with irritation and admonishments that you're not supposed to use it like that.

Once again, the man with the island tan is spot on. Usually it's secret. And usually Beta Testers are true nerds in my experience (can you see me playing that role?), not the sort of spokesperson you'd want, really. This is an entirely new deal for me. When it happens, that is.

Beta Tests are exactly as Pak says in my experience. It's that 'reality test' that so many foolishly skip. Our jobs (the others and myself) will be to 'think outside the box' when it comes to what the least logical user might do. Bench and Prototype testing are supposed to find the traditional problelms, we're testing the GUI if you will. Can a customer set the knobs such that it will crash? What does happen when you put the battery in backwards? That kind of test. Find the serious user problems when they can still be fixed or avoided.

By way of example, I once worked for a company that amongst other things made computer tracking alarms for merchant ships that attaches to the radar and keeps track of the other ships and their courses and speeds to avoid crashes (which always seem to happen under ideal conditions, not raging storms when everyone is paying attention....). Not the kind of service call that easy to do, you have to go meet the ship, they can't mail it in for software upgrades. We had lots of upgrades. Lots. Each got tested in Engineering (of course), then again in Production Test. Both times on live gear. Then usually it got a ride or two on the company boat on the bay before being sent out to a select set of customers who had regular schedules (like the Asia or oil trades), car carriers full of Japanese cars are great for this, they come back every month or so on their own....

So, we cheated once. The suits decided to skip the sea trials on a 'trivial software change' and gave it the once over and released it. For cultural reasons Yankee ship's Officers run radars 'head up' (with the bright line representing straight ahead pointing straight up) and the view on the screen like the view out the windows. Europeans run 'North up' where the head line rotates with the ship's compass so it points to 3 o'clock when going East and everything on the screen looks like the charts, not the windows. Different view of the world. A tracker needs to know when the ship turns since all the other ships don't and therefore spin around you on the screen.

Can you feel it coming? Yup, Yanks had no problems, European ones lost targets in turns. The 'trivial change' took bearing data from the wrong bus when in North up.....ooops. We had half a dozen ships sailing the seven seas for several of our best customers before the first report came back. Some of them 'tramps' (no fixed schedule). A couple of us got the duty to fly to some third rate port, find and board the ship, swap the ROMs and ride to the next port demonstrating the corrected software. They weren't about to let you off until you've proven there's no problems, and who could blame them? Ever try living on say a Chinese ship for a couple of weeks or a month as the only outsider? As you plod along at 14 or 15 knotts to the next nowhere port you never wanted to see. Fun to look back on, but not an experience I'd recommend. In those days such ships carried Radio Operators as one of the 30 or so crew, so at least one guy spoke English so you're not completely alone. Although your diet gets a bit strange and you end up living in six four hour watches a day. Some ships are dry (American flag for instance), none had vaping lounges. Trust me, I fully appreciate how important Beta Testing is. I've lived the downside. Which is why I guess traditional companies want to keep the details from the completion?

Sorry to ramble but it was a fun memory and sorta topical? Thanks for reading.

OF
 

Krazzykid

Well-Known Member
TIM
I have something that is bugging me here. I was just about to pre order the Cera essential oil and I'm confused how this thing has an "all ceramic vapor path" ? The site shows the cartridge for it is either stainless steel or titanium, so how is that an all ceramic vapor path if the vapor starts in a metal cartridge?

I am still looking forward to buying one of these I am just curious on that issue is all.
 
Krazzykid,

Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
Wow, I would never ever want to do that stuff. That is hard work and can be boring and so methodical. As anal as I am I only want to do what I want. Now an opinion is a whole other thing. I wonder if they test for people like me who do, do everything backwards...it must be the lefty in me.:p Thanks for all the testers to help us backwards ass people.
 

OF

Well-Known Member
The site shows the cartridge for it is either stainless steel or titanium, so how is that an all ceramic vapor path if the vapor starts in a metal cartridge?

I'm not Tim, but I know the answer...... Or at least think I do. Tim can set us all straight if I'm wrong.....he does that so well. The vapor doesn't start where the metal is. Cool air is drawn past cool metal in the socket area and then past very hot metal in the heat core (picking up heat mostly by IR) then the hot air goes through the ceramic floor of the bowl to the herb or concentrate. That's where the vapor starts, after the air goes through the core. There's metal in the air path but not the vapor path. Big difference in terms. Most feel the (right) hot heater metal does not contribute taste....I'm amongst them.

The heater itself is neither SS nor Titanium.

The short answer is the important part of the cart is ceramic?

FWIW I don't think the cartridge has any Titanium parts, I think they're talking about the metal parts of the body. I don't see two types of carts listed. I suspect their metal parts in the carts are going to be brass still since it machines so well and is so appropriate to the use. It may be Nickle plated again, in fact I'd expect that.

OF
 
OF,

Stu

Maconheiro
Staff member
Get OF to show you the tape of his appearances on Jeopardy....
Is this true OF?

I'd pay to see that if it exists.... I can see it now:

OF (responding to the answer): "Who is Einstein? ..... oh, and by the way, did you know that he didn't receive the Nobel prize for 1921 until 1922? And it was for the photoelectric effect of all things, Alex... most people have the silly notion that he earned the Nobel prize for Special Relativity, or even General Relativity... I met a girl named Quantum one time in a dive bar in Thailand, Alex.... Let me tell you that she knew hew physics, but I digress.... Silly world, this.... Fun stuff, Alex.... fun stuff to be sure......"
:peace:
 

Haywood

Onward Thru the Fog
[snip...]
The heater itself is neither SS nor Titanium.

The short answer is the important part of the cart is ceramic?

FWIW I don't think the cartridge has any Titanium parts, I think they're talking about the metal parts of the body. I don't see two types of carts listed. I suspect their metal parts in the carts are going to be brass still since it machines so well and is so appropriate to the use. It may be Nickle plated again, in fact I'd expect that.

OF
If you take a look at the pre-order page, you'll see that each of the different cores is listed (e.g., if you look at the herb Cera page, the side "extras" column lists the price for the oil and e-juice cores). The steel cores are all $99 and the titanium cores are all $199. This holds true for all six different cores available (herb, oil, and e-juice in stainless steel and in titanium).

The titanium cores are twice the price of the stainless steel cores. Something must be different.
 
Haywood,
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