The most important vaporization discussion we need to have. (Your Vape Mail)

[flammy]

They would be following the law though. They would be a retail location, they would be age verifying and we would not be shipping direct to consumer and neither would they.

Understood. I did not realize that you intended to be PACT compliant and if you are PACT compliant then this would just be a solution to the shipping issue rather than circumvention.

This is the most comprehensive page I’ve seen regarding UPS:

Shipping Special-Care or Regulated Items | UPS - United States

Learn about how to ship regulated and special care items with UPS, from perishables and wine to firearms and animals.

www.ups.com

“For any approved Vaping Products shipment, Shippers must obtain and use a specially-issued UPS account number approved for the shipment of any Vaping Products. Vaping Product accounts can only be used for the shipment of Vaping Products or related accessories.“

I just ran a quote for a UPS Parcel and the Adult Signature Required fee is $6.70 by itself. $19.15 total for UPS Ground in a 6x9 package (common mailer size)

From the same page:

For the purpose of this prohibition, Vaping Products includes any and all noncombustible liquid or gel, regardless of the presence of nicotine, capable of being used with or for the consumption of nicotine. All related vape devices, products and accessories are included in this prohibition.

Seems like this makes it rather clear that dry herb devices are not included as ENDS for their purposes.

 

[Planck]

you intended to be PACT compliant and if you are PACT compliant then this would just be a solution to the shipping issue rather than circumvention.

The PACT is written in a way that probably prevents any new approvals. The applicant will have to spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on their application with absolutely no guarantee of approval. From memory one has to "prove that their product does no, zero, nadda, zilch harm to the user." Prove a negative, yeah that's not a thing.

 

[ClearBlueLou]

For some reason, I’m reminded of the day when the only way to find American Spirit cigs was to order them. Worked great for a time, but then it was rendered illegal...and the reason was explicitly to ensure that brick’n’mortar shops could collect sales taxes

 

[flammy]

The PACT is written in a way that probably prevents any new approvals. The applicant will have to spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on their application with absolutely no guarantee of approval. From memory one has to "prove that their product does no, zero, nadda, zilch harm to the user." Prove a negative, yeah that's not a thing.

That's actually not the case. They want their tax money so if you are willing to register and remit the required taxes, they will take it. The PACT Act was already in place along with the requirements. The only thing that changed is that they broadened the term cigarettes to include electronic nicotine delivery system.

From POTV (posted yesterday 3/29/21):

"While we think it’s pretty clear dry herb vaporizers shouldn’t be restricted, we’re not so hopeful for concentrate vaporizers. Because the oils melt into a liquid, they could get caught in the crossfire. When everything is settled and concentrate vaporizers are in the clear, we will be back with another stellar lineup of vapes for you."

vape-shipping-ban-concentrates-fall

 

[Planck]

@flammy you are correct. I confused the FDA PTMA ( premarket tobacco application )with The AFT Pact Act. The PTMA is near impossible to obtain and everyone selling ENDS will need one.

Tax dollars at work folks.

 

[EliumVapor]

So after speaking with 6 different people at UPS all with different responses to the question could we use the Access Point for delivery of vaporizers I finally got a call back from their legal department. They will not be allowing any vaporizer shipments whatsoever, not dry herb, concentrate or e-liquid vaporizers. USPS, FEDEX and DHL are all in the same boat.

I wish POTV luck, but have to say they are taking a huge risk to continue to ship dry herb vaporizers. The fine for violations is $5,000 per violation and up to 3 years in prison. The law is pretty clear and includes any vaporizer used to inhale any substance. Not just liquids or concentrates.

We will continue to look for a solution and I will post if I find any leads. This has really effected our ability to raise funds for our launch so we are scrambling to find a path forward.

 

[Alegre]

Damn... That is bad news indeed!

 

[Smknbud]

Got this email from Puffco today....

Dear Valued Puffco Customer, Due to an amendment to the PACT act that was passed in December of 2020, major shipping carriers and the USPS have decided to no longer deliver products that are classified as non-nicotine vapes for hemp and other legal herbs. Unfortunately, Puffco products have been grouped into this category and this decision could impact you as an eCommerce customer. While we were able to implement a solution that will allow us to continue servicing the majority of our customers within the contiguous United States, the European Union (EU), and the United Kingdom (UK), starting Thursday April 1st, 2021 at 11:30am PST there are certain locations that we will not be able to deliver to. The current list of affected areas can be viewed here. Those areas will have until Thursday April 1st, 2021 11:30am PST to place an order on Puffco.com and have it shipped by our current carriers. Orders placed before the deadline will ship within 2-3 business days of processing for domestic orders and 7-10 business days for international orders. Any affected customers who wish to purchase Puffco products after the deadline should find a Puffco approved store near them using our store locator. Please know that we are working tirelessly to find a delivery service solution to those inconvenienced by this amendment and will provide updates as they become available. Should you have any questions, please contact our Customer Support at support@puffco.com. Thank You, The Puffco Team

 

[invertedisdead]

One step forward, two steps back.....

 

[Kins]

One step forward, two steps back.....

 

[Ramahs]

So after speaking with 6 different people at UPS all with different responses to the question could we use the Access Point for delivery of vaporizers I finally got a call back from their legal department. They will not be allowing any vaporizer shipments whatsoever, not dry herb, concentrate or e-liquid vaporizers. USPS, FEDEX and DHL are all in the same boat.

I wish POTV luck, but have to say they are taking a huge risk to continue to ship dry herb vaporizers. The fine for violations is $5,000 per violation and up to 3 years in prison. The law is pretty clear and includes any vaporizer used to inhale any substance. Not just liquids or concentrates.

We will continue to look for a solution and I will post if I find any leads. This has really effected our ability to raise funds for our launch so we are scrambling to find a path forward.

It seems that as long as the rebrands happen, and we're not calling them vaporizers...then we'll probably be okay. Nothing stops the capitalist money flow in this country, so as long as we can continue to label them "coffee maker parts" or whatever we label them as we ship them then we'll be fine.

It's not like people haven't been getting away with shipping ACTUAL cannabis in the mail since like forever.

Is what is. We'll figure out where the loopholes are. We are just as smart as those shitty disgusting people are. Don'r forget that.

 

[ChilledAsian]

I understand that the ban is only for shipping within the US... Out of curiosity is ok to ship TEDs to the US, if it is coming from EU?

 

[oddjobold]

I understand that the ban is only for shipping within the US... Out of curiosity is ok to ship TEDs to the US, if it is coming from EU?

I am thinking this could be the solution. Some of you manufacturers just need to move! Or ship from another country.

 

[Tranquility]

It seems that as long as the rebrands happen, and we're not calling them vaporizers...then we'll probably be okay. Nothing stops the capitalist money flow in this country, so as long as we can continue to label them "coffee maker parts" or whatever we label them as we ship them then we'll be fine.

It's not like people haven't been getting away with shipping ACTUAL cannabis in the mail since like forever.

Is what is. We'll figure out where the loopholes are. We are just as smart as those shitty disgusting people are. Don'r forget that.

I think this is where some of the problem comes from. The dichotomy of what is today and what was yesterday.

Yesterday, propane and propane accessories were sold by artists or other one-off people who sold to customers who knew what they wanted. Today it is a business where grown-up people get capital and hire others to create a legal product for the free market.

This is one of the costs of legalization.

It's great to call something a propane accessory when you're selling a couple to friends or propane connoisseurs. A serious person in a real job where others depend on you, you might run that by an attorney first.

 

[non sequitur]

It seems that as long as the rebrands happen, and we're not calling them vaporizers...then we'll probably be okay. Nothing stops the capitalist money flow in this country, so as long as we can continue to label them "coffee maker parts" or whatever we label them as we ship them then we'll be fine.

It's not like people haven't been getting away with shipping ACTUAL cannabis in the mail since like forever.

Is what is. We'll figure out where the loopholes are. We are just as smart as those shitty disgusting people are. Don'r forget that.

Yeah these were my thoughts as well. People send actual cannabis. There will always be someone out there savvy enough to find away around whats stopping the rest of us.

 

[BrianTL]

Got this email from Puffco today....

Dear Valued Puffco Customer, Due to an amendment to the PACT act that was passed in December of 2020, major shipping carriers and the USPS have decided to no longer deliver products that are classified as non-nicotine vapes for hemp and other legal herbs. Unfortunately, Puffco products have been grouped into this category and this decision could impact you as an eCommerce customer. While we were able to implement a solution that will allow us to continue servicing the majority of our customers within the contiguous United States, the European Union (EU), and the United Kingdom (UK), starting Thursday April 1st, 2021 at 11:30am PST there are certain locations that we will not be able to deliver to. The current list of affected areas can be viewed here. Those areas will have until Thursday April 1st, 2021 11:30am PST to place an order on Puffco.com and have it shipped by our current carriers. Orders placed before the deadline will ship within 2-3 business days of processing for domestic orders and 7-10 business days for international orders. Any affected customers who wish to purchase Puffco products after the deadline should find a Puffco approved store near them using our store locator. Please know that we are working tirelessly to find a delivery service solution to those inconvenienced by this amendment and will provide updates as they become available. Should you have any questions, please contact our Customer Support at support@puffco.com. Thank You, The Puffco Team

I dont understand that list at all... my zip code isn't on that list but there are plenty from NY... not sure what makes my zip OK to sell to but not others? Wonder where they came up with that list

 

[Bazinga]

I'd also like an answer to this. Makes no sense to me.

 

[flammy]

So after speaking with 6 different people at UPS all with different responses to the question could we use the Access Point for delivery of vaporizers I finally got a call back from their legal department. They will not be allowing any vaporizer shipments whatsoever, not dry herb, concentrate or e-liquid vaporizers. USPS, FEDEX and DHL are all in the same boat.

I wish POTV luck, but have to say they are taking a huge risk to continue to ship dry herb vaporizers. The fine for violations is $5,000 per violation and up to 3 years in prison. The law is pretty clear and includes any vaporizer used to inhale any substance. Not just liquids or concentrates.

We will continue to look for a solution and I will post if I find any leads. This has really effected our ability to raise funds for our launch so we are scrambling to find a path forward.

This needs to be clarified a bit as this is the answer that should be expected from UPS due to existing codified laws. Concentrate and e-liquid devices are absolutely prohibited due to UPS' guidance regarding PACT and ENDS:

Shipping Special-Care or Regulated Items | UPS - United States

Learn about how to ship regulated and special care items with UPS, from perishables and wine to firearms and animals.

www.ups.com

Dry herb vapes are prohibited due to Title 21 Section 863 (Drug Paraphernalia law):

21 U.S. Code § 863 - Drug paraphernalia

www.law.cornell.edu

As mentioned before, if you are looking for a common carrier such as UPS to explicitly say that they will allow dry herb vapes, it won't happen due to this law. There are 2 general ways that you can ship/use and not run afoul of this law: 1) intended use exemption 2) jurisdictional exemption (if state or local laws permit). Most commonly, the intended use exemption is used. This is why head shops are so particular about what you say inside as none of their items are marketed for cannabis use. This is most likely why S&B is so deliberate in their marketing and instruction manuals and why their devices have temp settings that are generally too low for cannabis use. Their instructions explicitly provide a list of herbs that can be used and cannabis is not among them.

The following is a ruling provided to S&B on this exact topic and provides some good insight on the intended use exemption:

Customs Ruling HQ H169675 - 21 U.S.C. § 863; alleged Drug Paraphernalia; Volcano Vaporizer

21 U.S.C. § 863; alleged Drug Paraphernalia; Volcano Vaporizer

www.customsmobile.com

In no way am I saying that its all roses and sunshine in the industry. I actually see trouble for dry herb vapes in the future based on what S&B is currently doing (its referenced in the above ruling too) in this space. This said, dry herb devices are NOT covered by PACT rather they are covered by Drug Paraphernalia law but there are workable defenses that have been used over the years which will still apply albeit adjustments will need to be made to ensure that tobacco is no longer referenced. Unfortunately concentrate devices are going to be caught up in this (at least temporarily) hence Puffco and POTV's decision.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

@flammy https://www.aromedvaporizer.de/produkt/phyto-inhalation/?lang=en

Medicinal plants from A to Z – AroMed-Vaporizer

www.aromedvaporizer.de

Vaporizers are marketed for phyto inhalation at least since 1996, not due to a mail ban,this has been a standart for years , why to market something for a single use/botanical ,when you can use it for a lot of things like general aromatherapy,also having in mind the stigma of the main plant people are using in them. I for once bought my first vaporizer in 2005 with the idea to use it with various herbs which i do to up to this date .
Also to further comment on the mail ban, to me it seems that it is not really a ban,but more like adding addition obstacle and probably taxation to obtaining vapes.

 

[C No Ego]

it is all about Tax ! if you look at the wording it is onl;y based on adding Sin tax form tobacco onto all vapes
... just like we are treating newly legal cananbis acting like it is tobacco ETC.... while it is not in any way similar just that people can smoke the two

 

[Hackerman]

I just noticed something that strikes me a little strange.

On the Grasscity online head shop (and many other online head shops), they have disclaimers stating that all their products are for tobacco use.

While that is a good thing to avoid the paraphernalia laws, it states that all their products are for tobacco delivery. Holy shit, am I the only one who thinks that claiming all your products are for tobacco use is not a great idea, right now? I see the sin tax people saying, "Shit, if we can sin tax and control ELECTRONIC tobacco/nicotine delivery systems, certain NON-ELECTRONIC tobacco delivery tools should also be sin taxed and controlled. We have to save the children".

There is way too much gray area in all this. Something is going to happen and it's all going to have to shake out. I feel sorry for the companies that are going to be selected to set precedent. Going to be a lot of money spent on lawyers before this is all over.

 

[flammy]

I just noticed something that strikes me a little strange.

On the Grasscity online head shop (and many other online head shops), they have disclaimers stating that all their products are for tobacco use.

While that is a good thing to avoid the paraphernalia laws, it states that all their products are for tobacco delivery. Holy shit, am I the only one who thinks that claiming all your products are for tobacco use is not a great idea, right now? I see the sin tax people saying, "Shit, if we can sin tax and control ELECTRONIC tobacco/nicotine delivery systems, certain NON-ELECTRONIC tobacco delivery tools should also be sin taxed and controlled. We have to save the children".

There is way too much gray area in all this. Something is going to happen and it's all going to have to shake out. I feel sorry for the companies that are going to be selected to set precedent. Going to be a lot of money spent on lawyers before this is all over.

This isn't all too strange. The drug paraphernalia law has an exemption specifically for items to be used with tobacco. At the very end of that subsection, it lists exemptions and one of them is as follows:

"(2) any item that, in the normal lawful course of business, is imported, exported, transported, or sold through the mail or by any other means, and traditionally intended for use with tobacco products, including any pipe, paper, or accessory."

Even Storz & Bickel themselves associated tobacco use with the volcano when attempting to get the exclusion based off an alternate intended use. From S&B's attorneys own description of volcano when they sought guidance on whether they could be exempted from drug paraphernalia due to an alternate intended use (they even reference oils):

"The Volcano Vaporizer is not designed for use with controlled substances, but rather eucalyptus, hops, chamomile, lavender, lemon, balm, sage, thyme, aromatherapy, aromatic oils and tobacco"

Stating that the device was used for tobacco was a common practice to circumvent the drug paraphernalia law since it was a specified exeception and companies will now need to be mindful of that restriction if attempting to utilize the intended use defense.

 

[Tranquility]

I just noticed something that strikes me a little strange.

On the Grasscity online head shop (and many other online head shops), they have disclaimers stating that all their products are for tobacco use.

While that is a good thing to avoid the paraphernalia laws, it states that all their products are for tobacco delivery. Holy shit, am I the only one who thinks that claiming all your products are for tobacco use is not a great idea, right now? I see the sin tax people saying, "Shit, if we can sin tax and control ELECTRONIC tobacco/nicotine delivery systems, certain NON-ELECTRONIC tobacco delivery tools should also be sin taxed and controlled. We have to save the children".

There is way too much gray area in all this. Something is going to happen and it's all going to have to shake out. I feel sorry for the companies that are going to be selected to set precedent. Going to be a lot of money spent on lawyers before this is all over.

Good observation, but, while the lie was convenient for paraphernalia purposes, I'm not sure it really hurts on this one. The guidelines (aka elements of the crime) are very different. In the paraphernalia law, there is a lot of intent involved. The intended use is key. In this law, the intended use is not the intent required to be guilty, but the intent to distribute by unregulated delivery. There may be some value to a prosecutor if the intended use fits what is purported to be the reason for the law (keeping electronic vapes of nicotine/tobacco away from kids), however, the intended use is not an element of the crime.

 

[Hackerman]

Yeah, I'm hip to it not really pertaining to the CURRENT laws. However, I see, claiming your product "to be for tobacco use" is putting a target on your back. Nothing bad today.. but tomorrows come quickly these days.

However, I am an opportunist. And, I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one in the world. LOL So, someone will see this situation as an opportunity, they will provide a solution, make a zillion dollars, buy an island in the South Pacific and live happily ever after with the extra 8 bux we're going to pay for every vape we buy for eternity. LMAO Once again, welcome to the 21st century.

And, like I said, things move pretty quickly these days. Violations will occur, fines will be levied, lawyers will be called, judges will make decisions and in the end.... we'll all be able to buy vapes. I'll bet ya 50 cents that this will all be clear as a bell and a solution will be available before the 4th of July.

 

[Tranquility]

Yeah, I'm hip to it not really pertaining to the CURRENT laws. However, I see, claiming your product "to be for tobacco use" is putting a target on your back. Nothing bad today.. but tomorrows come quickly these days.

However, I am an opportunist. And, I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one in the world. LOL So, someone will see this situation as an opportunity, they will provide a solution, make a zillion dollars, buy an island in the South Pacific and live happily ever after with the extra 8 bux we're going to pay for every vape we buy for eternity. LMAO Once again, welcome to the 21st century.

And, like I said, things move pretty quickly these days. Violations will occur, fines will be levied, lawyers will be called, judges will make decisions and in the end.... we'll all be able to buy vapes. I'll bet ya 50 cents that this will all be clear as a bell and a solution will be available before the 4th of July.

(Although, I don't agree things will move quickly. There's a year of people to evict soon.)