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The most important vaporization discussion we need to have. (Your Vape Mail)

Deecee

Well-Known Member
In April all vape mail will be banned ecigarette variety or otherwise.

The blanket amendment

We need people to prevent this from happening and save vape mail before its too late. It was just amended to include ALL vaping devices. Funny how they want to federally legalize cannabis but selling the vapes are bad.

Its going to take a lobbyist, big pockets in industry, people with congressional pull.

Some times congress people dont know about all the angles or even about what they are voting on. If we dont do anything about it though, it will be a vape shop only type thing unless someone has loophole ideas,

Only thing I could think of is switch to calling it aromatherapy products and not vaping.
 

Farid

Well-Known Member
I completely agree. The other thread on this topic: (https://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaporizers-to-be-banned-in-us-mail.50059/) has several replies saying that weed vapes would not be targeted, and unfortunately some people even insinuated that people raising this concern were overreacting.

I have no faith in lawmakers to make any distinctions between weed vapes and nicotine vapes. Especially when the cases of lung damage were connected to black market (weed) carts.
 

Shit Snacks

Milaana. Lana. LANA. LAANAAAAAAA
Yeah based on the other thread, it seems all our 420 vape companies are going to have to pivot and remove any vape type language to get away with shipping... You already see this with many big companies like new Tafée using different terminology to ship internationally via FedEx (who are also banning vape mail soon supposedly)
 

Deecee

Well-Known Member
I completely agree. The other thread on this topic: (https://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaporizers-to-be-banned-in-us-mail.50059/) has several replies saying that weed vapes would not be targeted, and unfortunately some people even insinuated that people raising this concern were overreacting.

I have no faith in lawmakers to make any distinctions between weed vapes and nicotine vapes. Especially when the cases of lung damage were connected to black market (weed) carts.
If we worked with ecig ppl and pulled resources we could beat it easier, sadly ecig people always crying about marijuana users so I doubt it will happen.

I did advocacy for vaping industry, calls to action, live shows, vaping conventions. When fda regs hit I couldnt comply and had to shut down my eliquid business. I didnt get help from a single one of them, guess they figured more customers for us until the regs fully hit and they cash out and move on.

True about the fake carts, sad that such misinformation gets made into laws. (congress needs fact checkers)

Hope there are options, and it doesnt affect us but didnt see a post about the new amendment and wanted people to be aware if they had any "legal joose".
 

Farid

Well-Known Member
I'm still not worried about it. Like I said in my old post this isn't the end, not even close.

I appreciate the optimism, but things have changed since the last thread. In the past few weeks every major shipping company including USPS, UPS, and Fed Ex have announced they will no longer be shipping vapes.

How dry herb vapes fit into this is yet to be determined, but I expect it will have major implications for portable electronic vaporizers.

With ecigs there was a sense a year ago that the walls were closing in with the impending PMTA regulations. Many users felt that it wasn't the end because DIY supplies were still readily available. Now with the shipping ban that door is closing as well.

The reality is that skilled makers will always be able to build their own herb vapes. But as an industry things are certainly in limbo.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
I appreciate the optimism, but things have changed since the last thread. In the past few weeks every major shipping company including USPS, UPS, and Fed Ex have announced they will no longer be shipping vapes.

So we can't even just blame the dumb politicians. These companies are choosing to do this. Not being forced to by law. Ridiculous.

It looks like UPS will still ship to brick and mortar shops. I guess that's good for local shops, but forcing people to go out in the middle of a pandemic to get supplies, especially if they're an immunocompromised medical patient, seems dumb.

If I were a dry herb or even a dab vape maker, I'd call my product an "herbal extraction device" and say fuck it. Use the fact no one seems to know what a dry herb vape is against the system.

I'm glad I quit vaping nicotine just in nick of time, but fuck I feel bad for e-cig users. Not everyone lives near a vape shop. This will force thousands back to cigarettes. This nonsense will literally kill people. More people than the status quo would. It's like "The Trolley Problem", except these sickos are actively choosing to have the trolley run over more people. Insane.
 
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Farid

Well-Known Member
Here in MA the vape shops all shut down seemingly overnight during what was a temporary vape ban (implemented during the vitamin E health scare). Since then they have been allowed to reopen but with an added flavor ban. Very few have opened back up.

With the uncertainty of future legislation as well as additional uncertainty of running a B&M during covid, I think the options for nicotine vapers will be increasingly limited. Soon I imagine the convenience store will be the only option for many. Ironic considering it was Juul and other convenience store products which brought the microscope of legislators on the industry (wrt appealing to kids, not the vitamin E vaping illness).
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
I read here but have decided to not post. But, it seems you always come back. Previously, to tell of free weed. (With covid vac proof). Now, is to stop people from thinking this is going to be whistled past the graveyard with a new and improved name that does not include the word vape. It is not going to happen. First, recognize that while the law is focused on a federally legal substance (tobacco/nicotine), the real point is keeping kids from using it. Making the argument THIS item we want to ship is to be used for a federally illegal substance, does not make any lawmaker want to change things. The argument has to be on how vapes are a good thing and how we can work together to keep them out of the hands of kids. (Or, on getting a dry herb vape approved as a medical product for a therapeutic purpose.)

The argument has to be made and won before any reasonable manufacturer will attempt to violate the law. Let's remember how broadly it was written (https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-116HR133SA-RCP-116-68.pdf)

‘‘(7) ELECTRONIC NICOTINE DELIVERY SYS9 TEM.—The term ‘electronic nicotine delivery sys10tem’— ‘‘(A) means any electronic device that, 1through an aerosolized solution, delivers nico tine, flavor, or any other substance to the user inhaling from the device; ‘‘(B) includes— ‘‘(i) an e-cigarette; ‘‘(ii) an e-hookah; ‘‘(iii) an e-cigar; ‘‘(iv) a vape pen; ‘‘(v) an advanced refillable personal vaporizer; ‘‘(vi) an electronic pipe; and ‘‘(vii) any component, liquid, part, or 24 accessory of a device described in subpara graph (A), without regard to whether the component, liquid, part, or accessory is 2 sold separately from the device; and 3 ‘‘(C) does not include a product that is— 4 ‘‘(i) approved by the Food and Drug 5 Administration for— 6 ‘‘(I) sale as a tobacco cessation 7 product; or 8 ‘‘(II) any other therapeutic pur9 pose; and 10 ‘‘(ii) marketed and sold solely for a 11 purpose described in clause (i).’’;

You have to link those changes to the law. Not sure if complete and up to date, but the law is at https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prevent_All_Cigarette_Trafficking_Act_of_2009

“(a) Criminal penalties.—

“(1) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly violates this Act shall be imprisoned for not more than 3 years, fined under title 18, United States Code, or both.

“(2) EXCEPTIONS.—

“(A) GOVERNMENTS.—Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a State, local, or tribal government.

“(B) DELIVERY VIOLATIONS.—A common carrier or independent delivery service, or employee of a common carrier or independent delivery service, shall be subject to criminal penalties under paragraph (1) for a violation of section 2A(e) only if the violation is committed knowingly—

“(i) as consideration for the receipt of, or as consideration for a promise or agreement to pay, anything of pecuniary value; or

“(ii) for the purpose of assisting a delivery seller to violate, or otherwise evading compliance with, section 2A.

“(b) Civil penalties.—

“(1) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in paragraph (3), whoever violates this Act shall be subject to a civil penalty in an amount not to exceed—

“(A) in the case of a delivery seller, the greater of—

“(i) $5,000 in the case of the first violation, or $10,000 for any other violation; or

“(ii) for any violation, 2 percent of the gross sales of cigarettes or smokeless tobacco of the delivery seller during the 1-year period ending on the date of the violation.

“(B) in the case of a common carrier or other delivery service, $2,500 in the case of a first violation, or $5,000 for any violation within 1 year of a prior violation.

“(2) RELATION TO OTHER PENALTIES.—A civil penalty imposed under paragraph (1) for a violation of this Act shall be imposed in addition to any criminal penalty under subsection (a) and any other damages, equitable relief, or injunctive relief awarded by the court, including the payment of any unpaid taxes to the appropriate Federal, State, local, or tribal governments.


So, who's up to make that "herbal refreshment" claim on a dozen vapes you send out this week? That could lead to a dozen criminal felonies punishable by up to 3 years each. (You'll plead it down to one if you don't fight it--might even get it suspended if first time.) $115,000 in civil penalties (1st $5K, next 11 $10K) or 2% of sales. Whichever is greater.
 

kimura

Well-Known Member
these have been aromatherapy devices / personal heaters all along. Of course the FDA won’t allow you to sell what could be construed as medical devices to deliver a federally controlled substance without approval. This is an old game. Like the supplements industry

things could change but I doubt this is it. Cannabis industry is blowing up nationwide
 

Trackrat

Well-Known Member
Ok, so S&B products are considered medical devices. So would they be exempt, and able to be shipped thru the mail ?
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
So, who's up to make that "herbal refreshment" claim on a dozen vapes you send out this week?

I sure wouldn't do it through the US Mail. But I'd be ok violating the policies of private corporations like UPS and Fedex. Especially if I'm a company like Tafeè. A Fedex investigator could open their packages and visit their website...but I highly doubt they'd come to the conclusion this is a tobacco consumption device. I guess the cup isn't as stupid as I thought. Or, maybe DHL is about to be the new vape-mail truck we're all excited to see rounding the corner.

Making the argument THIS item we want to ship is to be used for a federally illegal substance, does not make any lawmaker want to change things.

I mean, I put more federally legal CBD flower into my herbal refreshment devices than the dreaded THC stuff. Unfortunately herb vaporists are a tiny community at the end of the day. Even in Cali, I almost never ran into one in the wild. We're just collateral damage from the stupidity of our rulers.

I do wonder if butane vapes are about to have their halcyon days though. The new 2020 language went through great pains to close any gap for electronic vapes to operate in. What if it's a device with no electronics...Maybe if I promise to combust with them every now and then, Uncle Sam will leave me alone? Since that seems to be their goal. Promoting combustion.
 

Farid

Well-Known Member
The difference I can see is that the "tobacco use only" label was used to avoid paraphernalia laws, which were enforced by the DEA. Besides some high profile cases (like Operation Pipe Dreams where Tommy Chong was busted), it seems the DEA is less inclined to pursue enforcement. Especially during the middle of the opioid epidemic.

These new amendments to the PACT act, however, will be enforced by the ATF. They have shown they are much more ruthless in following through with prosecution.
 
Farid,

Philabrookla

@cannabouge
Read somewhere you can call vaporizers "herbal driers". I think the laws are getting passed because there is a struggle going on behind the scenes with Philip Morris and this tobacco cigarette Vaporizer that you can slide a cig into, the IQOS. That's my crackpot theory of the day. It was apparently huge in Japan when they tested it. May have been incentivized however.
 
Philabrookla,

Farid

Well-Known Member
From my understanding IQOS was successful in Japan because e liquid has been banned there. So it's the only options for people wanting to quit smoking with an inhalable alternative. Everyone I know who has tried IQOS and also has vaped liquid says there is no comparison, and that IQOS is pretty awful smelling and tasting. It's also the same price as a pack of smokes, so I don't think it will be nearly as successful here.

But I agree that the introduction of IQOS will make it difficult to make a distinction between herb vapes and "heat not burn" products (which are restricted by the rules of the PACT act)
 
Farid,
In 2003 Phillip Morris changed their name to the Altria Group. I think it was because Phillip Morris became synonymous with “Big Tobacco.” They spent over a decade and undoubtedly millions of dollars developing and getting FDA approval for the IQOS device only to see their intended market overwhelmed with cheap e-liquid/ e-cig products that can be mixed and maintained by the user. Because e-cig products were distributed through online retailers they subverted the traditional distribution channels for tobacco products, convenience stores and gas stations. The market for nicotine products was further diluted by the popularity of the Juul and other “puff bars” which utilized cartridges and could be sold at convenience stores. The first opportunity to eliminate competition with the Altria group was when Juul took a play right out of the big tobacco playbook by marketing fruity flavors to kids in order to create life long addicts. Tobacco companies got in trouble for the same thing with all the Apple and other fruity/ candy flavored cigarettes with pods in the filter that you could crush. Just like what happened with Juul, internal memos surfaced talking about how to get kids hooked on the fruity flavors leading to bans on flavored cigarettes apart from menthol. Obviously tobacco companies didn’t want e-cig’s to have an unfair advantage in creating child addicts so when similar memo’s were found implicating Juul in marketing flavors to kids we ended up with a federal ban on e-liquid flavorings apart from menthol. The playing field was again level.

Now is when I put on my tinfoil hat.

The next opportunity the Altria group had to squash the E-cig market was the so called “vape lung crisis” of THC carts tainted with vitamin E- acetate. Early on in the crisis (maybe 13 cases) vitamin E acetate used as a cutting agent in THC carts was implicated as a potential cause for lipid pneumonia but articles and media coverage continued to indicate e-cigs and Juul specifically as a potential cause for the crisis. It is possible that un-informed reporters just used the common term “vaping” and even the medical community used vague language that perpetuated the misunderstanding like calling the injuries “vape lung disease” and VAPI: vape associated pulmonary injury. This is where I really pull my tinfoil hat down tight on my head. I think the Altria group capitalized on the mass media appeal of the vape lung crisis to spread misinformation about the cause of the injuries in order to lump nicotine vaporizers in with THC carts and permanently taint the reputation of vaping anything to try to shut down the booming e-cig market. For months the news surrounding the crisis we centered on vaping being dangerous and so much misinformation was spread that many people never learned that the crisis was caused almost entirely by one man importing vitamin e-acetate and rebranding it as a cutting agent called Honey Cut Oil to dilute the active ingredients in THC cartridges. I think this misinformation campaign was fairly successful in damaging the reputation of “vaping” and has culminated in the vague language included in the vape mail ban, it’s true intent to deal a death blow to the E-cig market and to recoup the investment into the IQOS device. The IQOS was a huge success in Japan where e-liquids have been banned for years but it fell flat in the US since many people realized the cost savings, smell and convenience benefits of e-cigs that could be purchased cheap online and sent through the mail. Tobacco companies would never be able to start mailing you cigarettes so they wanted their level playing field back.

I think the coordinated misinformation campaign was quite successful. During and immediately after the vape lung crisis I tried to turn a few cannabis smokers on to vapes so they could realize the benefits we here have all experienced from vaping cannabis. One of my attempted converts was a life long smoker of cannabis and cigarettes and a Fox News type so I wasn’t surprised when their response was “I’m not gonna hit that vape (a dynavap and a Tera) that shit kills people.” I educated him about the origin of the crisis with THC carts and he said he had used one of them with someone previously with someone at work. I told him not to worry since it came from a legal rec market that implemented vitamin E testing early on and never found tainted products on their shelves. Also it would have been before honey cut oil was on the scene. I don’t think he was worried too much about lung health, he smokes cigs. The one that really surprised me was a younger person who smoked out of a bong regularly. I had a dynavap with me and asked if they would like to try vaporizing cannabis. This was a few months after the vape lung crisis scare settled down and they had a similar response. “Isn’t vaping cannabis dangerous?” I had to educate them on the difference between vaping THC e-liquid and flower and that tainted carts were to blame for the deaths and injuries. I found it ironic that they were afraid of a flower vape since I could see a THC cartridge pen on the counter hahaha. After we had a nice session they told me that their friend had a fancy dynavap (Omni) in a wooden stash case that he used regularly so they were aware of flower vaporizers but were still confused by the misinformation that had been spread during the “vape crisis.” I think the media campaign was a coordinated effort by the Altria group and tobacco companies to damage the reputation of nicotine vaporizers but the vague use of overlapping terms like vaping has got flower vapes caught up as unfortunate collateral. A lot of uninformed, well intentioned parents have told their cannabis consuming adult children not to vape weed without understanding the difference between e-liquids and flower or the real cause of the vape lung crisis, vitamin E-acetate in illicit cartridges. The real cause of the vape lung epidemic is the prohibition policies towards cannabis as most of the fatalities were in states where cannabis is not legal and people didn’t have access to safe products.

I am coming after @Alexis’ title for longest posts on FC 😂
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
Just got an email from a nicotine vape company I've shopped at (eightvape.com):


"Recent congressional amendments to the PACT Act, signed into law as part of an omnibus spending bill, have broadened the definition of tobacco products to include vapes and vaping supplies. E-liquids, mods, kits, disposables, pod systems, and all other vaping items are now defined as tobacco products, and as such, they will be regulated more harshly.

In fact, Congress has prohibited USPS from shipping vape products, and FedEx and UPS intend to stop shipping vape products as well. We work with these carriers exclusively to fulfill orders, so we’re forced to adapt swiftly and change service handlers.

For your information, the carriers will stop shipping vape products on these dates:
  • FedEx, March 1
  • UPS, April 5
  • United States Postal Service (USPS), April 26

We’re working to engage a network of alternative carriers to fulfill our orders (and we’re optimistic about our success), but as a precaution we’re advising customers to stock up on vape supplies before the dates above, just to ensure you have what you need.

Our goal is to continue providing fast, affordable delivery, but we know that customers in remote areas may have greater difficulty receiving vape mail in the future."
 
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