A reply to @RobbIt in the puffitup thread is indicating that they are closing their doors.
If that is in fact the case, there's more to this law than we think, as I really doubt they would make that decision without serious legal consultation.
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If that is in fact the case, there's more to this law than we think, as I really doubt they would make that decision without serious legal consultation.
flammy
Well-Known Member
I think it would be incredibly difficult for any attorney to give green light simply due to the existing drug paraphernalia law.
EDIT:
PIU has not shut down. They are taking a precautionary break. Zakk issued a statement on behalf of PIU earlier today.
https://discord.com/channels/802072746149412904/802072746636738600/822546364490580060
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flammy
Well-Known Member
It doesn't happen often and when it does, its typically at customs with the CBP and the ATF is always been involved to be fair.
But isn't that the same loophole law that has always protected the sale of cannabis paraphernalia - by claiming it was a tobacco pipe, and thus not for a controlled substance?
And that law didn't stop PIU in the past. I guess my question is why are they taking a break and doing a blowout sale if there's nothing to worry about? Your link doesn't work for me, could you paste their statement? I realize they possibly have addressed that already, but the link requires a login. Thanks!
Han Solo
Guess which vape I got just before joining
Zakk - PIU (On their Discord) said:Hey guys, We love ya'll! We are doing our best to protect our employees right now, and that means waiting out some of the next couple weeks to see what happens when this bill goes into effect. We don't know what's going to happen next, but we are prepared to react when the time is right. We aren't goin' awaySorry this happened this way, it seems like our processor paused everything and we will need some time to figure it out. The laws aren't clear at all, and we've been working day and night to figure out exactly how it will be handled
"Hey guys, We love ya'll! We are doing our best to protect our employees right now, and that means waiting out some of the next couple weeks to see what happens when this bill goes into effect. We don't know what's going to happen next, but we are prepared to react when the time is right. We aren't goin' away
That's extremely similar to the one in the PIU thread short of the line "we are closing our doors." I'm guessing the reply in the PIU thread wasn't meant to suggest permanent closure, but perhaps this temporary shut down to see what happens. That could easily be misconstrued though so I see the confusion!
GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
USA controls the market. vapes like Herbo, Verdamper, MiniVap.. wouldn't survive without the USA buyers.
we need to think about the technology. what we can bring to the table. I am not from USA but if I would, I would find the guy who can introduce the tech parts, like a firmware like "tubomyevic" how it can change and convert all these smokers , to the 510 world . tubo/tetra/imp/splinter/stempod it doesn't matter it's a whole market and the desktop vapes too, actually all of them
smoking should be banned, not vaping. just need to find the path reaching that law changers.
edit:
the law says:
any electronic device that, through an aerosolized solution, delivers nicotine, flavor, or any other substance to the user inhaling from the device,” including “an e-cigarette; an e-hookah; an e-cigar; a vape pen; an advanced refillable personal vaporizer; an electronic pipe; and any component, liquid, part, or accessory of a device described [above], without regard to whether the component, liquid, part, or accessory is sold separately from the device.”
herb is not any kind of solution, by definition. maybe vaping herb isn't under the ban?
we need to think about the technology. what we can bring to the table. I am not from USA but if I would, I would find the guy who can introduce the tech parts, like a firmware like "tubomyevic" how it can change and convert all these smokers , to the 510 world . tubo/tetra/imp/splinter/stempod it doesn't matter it's a whole market and the desktop vapes too, actually all of them
smoking should be banned, not vaping. just need to find the path reaching that law changers.
edit:
the law says:
any electronic device that, through an aerosolized solution, delivers nicotine, flavor, or any other substance to the user inhaling from the device,” including “an e-cigarette; an e-hookah; an e-cigar; a vape pen; an advanced refillable personal vaporizer; an electronic pipe; and any component, liquid, part, or accessory of a device described [above], without regard to whether the component, liquid, part, or accessory is sold separately from the device.”
herb is not any kind of solution, by definition. maybe vaping herb isn't under the ban?
Thick Vape
In the Ballpark
Herb is not A solution, Herb is THE solution.
I am sure they could twist it in a way. Maybe THC is in solution in in the trichomes and we are fucked...
Farid
Well-Known Member
Smoking should not be banned. How can you expect others to respect your personal choice to use cannabis if you do not respect their personal choice to smoke, drink, etc. Turning this into a battle of who's vice is worse is a losing battle for everyone.
It's funny, on e-cig discussion boards there are users who blame cannabis vapers for the current legislation. Here, the opposite is the case. I think unity is important, since there is no sound basis for the fear mongering which drives these restrictions.
As for the question of what defines a solution, I hope you are right. But I also know that these laws were not written by chemists, so there is still some ambiguity in what they mean here.
flammy
Well-Known Member
Herb is not A solution, Herb is THE solution.
I am sure they could twist it in a way. Maybe THC is in solution in in the trichomes and we are fucked...
There is one way to interpret the definition of ENDS so that it includes dry herb devices and it has to do with how you interpret "through an aerosolized solution". I believe that an ENDS (per definition as contained in PACT: any electronic device that, through an aerosolized solution, delivers nicotine, flavor, or any other substance to the user inhaling from the device) means that the device delivers a substance by aerosolizing a solution and under this interpretation, dry herb devices are excluded from the purview of PACT as they are generally not designed for nor capable of aerosolizing a solution.
However, some have interpreted "through an aerosolized solution" to mean that the device delivers a substance contained within an aerosolized solution and if that is the case then all dry herb (or concentrate devices) would be considered an ENDS. The main issue with this interpretation is that the term "aerosolized solution" would be redundant in this case since an aerosol by definition is also a solution. If it were meant to be interpreted in that fashion, it would have been far more apropos to replace"aerosolized solution" with simply "aerosol".
From Wikipedia:
An aerosol (abbreviation of "aero-solution") is a suspension of fine solid particles or liquid droplets in air or another gas.[1]Aerosols can be natural or anthropogenic.
This might seem pedantic but when legal verbiage is unclear, you look to the minor details.
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RustyOldNail
SEARCH for the treasure...
OLD SAYING: “Follow the Money”
manilastandard.net
FDA admits getting over $150,000 from anti-tobacco NGO to regulate vapes - Manila Standard
Top officials of the Food and Drug Administration, which is in charge of drafting the regulations on e-cigarettes and heated tobacco products, confirmed in a congressional investigation on Tuesday that they solicited and received money from a foreign anti-tobacco organization funded by Bloomberg...
manilastandard.net
Thick Vape
In the Ballpark
I hope you are right.
Isn't there a way to just fight that whole stupid law in the US?
Here in europe they make studies at some university-hospitals to prove e-cigs and stuff could be a way to help people stop smoking.
In this vape ban case I hope europe does not follow the US now.
flammy
Well-Known Member
As long as cannabis is classified as a schedule 1 drug, it will be very prohibitive to conduct biomedical research on cannabis to help provide support in the form of medical benefits. One of the major benefits of rescheduling is its impact on biomedical research for cannabis.
tokenknifeguy
Well-Known Member
If we being honest with ourselves are we even really vaping? I don't vape, none of my friends vape. No one I know vapes. I only use these devices for aromatic purposes and those only.
Hackerman
User
I don't understand everyone's attitude that changing the name of the vape is going to make a difference.
I went downtown yesterday and shot someone with my gun. When the police arrived, I told them, "This isn't a gun. It's a banana." They let me go because there's no law against discharging a banana in the city.
I think it's going to be what THEY say is a vape. Not what WE say it is.
It worked by calling bongs and weed pipes (for tobacco use only). But, we are dealing with a much BIGGER agency here. With the ATF in charge, I'm not sure calling a gun a banana is going to do the trick. Plus, this situation has WAY more visibility today than that paraphernalia law had 50 years ago before social media and 50 TV news stations. This is the new 21st century America and I don't think it's going to be that easy.
I spoke with the local head shop owner here yesterday and suggested he set up a terminal so people could come in and order any vape they want from any company online and it would be shipped to the head shop where the owner could distribute it to the end user in accordance with PACT (checking the end user's ID, essentially). There are some issues with this program but we talked about it and he is going to check into it.
Certainly is a bummer. Vaporsolo announce they are closed until further notice and so were a couple more of my favorite haunts for VAS.
Definitely a bummer. I hope we all find some workaround. And, if I know today's Americans..... we will. LOL
I went downtown yesterday and shot someone with my gun. When the police arrived, I told them, "This isn't a gun. It's a banana." They let me go because there's no law against discharging a banana in the city.
I think it's going to be what THEY say is a vape. Not what WE say it is.
It worked by calling bongs and weed pipes (for tobacco use only). But, we are dealing with a much BIGGER agency here. With the ATF in charge, I'm not sure calling a gun a banana is going to do the trick. Plus, this situation has WAY more visibility today than that paraphernalia law had 50 years ago before social media and 50 TV news stations. This is the new 21st century America and I don't think it's going to be that easy.
I spoke with the local head shop owner here yesterday and suggested he set up a terminal so people could come in and order any vape they want from any company online and it would be shipped to the head shop where the owner could distribute it to the end user in accordance with PACT (checking the end user's ID, essentially). There are some issues with this program but we talked about it and he is going to check into it.
Certainly is a bummer. Vaporsolo announce they are closed until further notice and so were a couple more of my favorite haunts for VAS.
Definitely a bummer. I hope we all find some workaround. And, if I know today's Americans..... we will. LOL
flammy
Well-Known Member
It's risk management. It won't solve a problem but it should hopefully help with confusions. This may not even be for the sake of the ATF enforcement but it could help mitigate overreactions by merchant service providers to anyone dealing with products that have the word "vape" in it. The term "vape" has been negatively correlated with the PACT amendment since very early on as its been colloquially known as the "vape ban". This moniker is inappropriate as its too broad and has inadvertently now lumped in vaporizers that should not be categorized as an ENDS. The issue is that when you aerosolize a solution, you are always vaporizing. However when you are vaporizing, you are not always aerosolizing a solution (eg, dry herb). Its pedantic but anything that can be done to separate your device from the intended target is prudent if its not too cost burdensome. This said, if the device is an ENDS, renaming from "vape" to any other derivative of that word would be obviously risky.
JD Supra is a very reputable resource to the legal community and its take on the PACT Act amendment is insightful:
"This includes traditional vapor products delivering nicotine as well as non-nicotine vapor products, which could be construed by the government to include hemp oil vapor products."
Sorry. This document is not available.
There are two notable elements from that passage. First is that it specifies "oil" vs. dry herb since dry herb is not a solution. Second, is that it was not absolute in its assumptions as it used the wording "could be construed". This is good news for most dry herb vaporizers but this could be bad news for concentrate devices.
tr33sPlease
Well-Known Member
One issue with that analogy, whether you shoot someone with a gun or a banana, if still hurt someone, you will still be in trouble (rightfully so). Though, I think you were meant, just discharging the gun in a city in general.
That being said, it isn't proving that the name of the device that is different, it is proving that the intended use for the device is different and being able to prove that in the court of law. Calling a gun a banana, but still using it to fire shots, and not being able to actually eat it or do anything else legal with it, is why that argument won't work.
The reason changing the name of bongs to tobacco water pipes worked is because using a pipe for tobacco is legal and there were not restrictions on it. In one state, they are called glass art, and that worked as well.
If there is another use for vapes, such as fragrance diffuser or hand warmer, and there are disclaimers that using it for other purposes not allowed, then it could potentially work. However, this will probably only work for some vaporizers and not others. For example, vaporbrothers vapes comes with a difuser module -- if it was sold without the whip included, then it could be ok and the whip could just be a tube and a piece of glass art sold completely separately. Another example is a log vape, it is marketed as not just a vape, but also a hand warmer (and then modifying what is included).
It will probably be on a vape by vape basis -- I don't think there is any way this could work for a concentrate vape.
Bath salts (and other research chemicals) are sold legally this way as well -- that is why they were called bath salts which helps get around the analog act, until the substance is outright banned.
Either way, this all sucks.
EDIT: Just reading more: “any component…part, or accessory of a device.” is included -- that will make this harder, since the pieces I was talking about that may need to be sold separately will also be regulated.
non sequitur
Member
Part of me wonders if vapes could be built by the end user. The vape would be seperated into it's componants and you pop it together. That way the sellers could just be a "do it yourself" or "crafts" seller. They aren't selling the vape they are selling the components. Each on its own wouldn't fall under the definition.
Hackerman
User
One thing I am sure of... we will find a workaround. LOL We always do.
But, it sux because people like TerpTorch and many others are caught in the net and every day is an eternity when it's happening to YOU. Especially right now when many people and businesses are suffering from the Corona party and now, this. Just too damn bad. That's all.
But, like I said, there will eventually be a work around. There always is.
@tr33sPlease Yeah, the banana was a terrible analogy but it got the point across. And, vapes are WAY more damaging to people than guns. Don't you watch the news. LOL Guns don't kill people. But, vapes are a murderous group of evil devices that prey on children and will take your life without hesitation. Damn those killer vapes. LOL
Removing the word vape from your company is definitely a good idea right now but I think some might believe that is the end all answer and the only thing that will need to be done. And, I was saying, I don't think it's going to be that easy. Would be nice. But, this is 21st century America and nothing is easy. LOL I think a few sellers are going to have to end up in court and prove one way or another if their product is a vape or not. And, if you have to fight the ATF in court.... bring your wallet. Because they will surely empty it for you.
I guess time will tell. I know one thing. As soon as you can't... you want to. LOL I have been scouring the internet and buying vapes in a frenzy. LOL
I miss puffitup.
But, it sux because people like TerpTorch and many others are caught in the net and every day is an eternity when it's happening to YOU. Especially right now when many people and businesses are suffering from the Corona party and now, this. Just too damn bad. That's all.
But, like I said, there will eventually be a work around. There always is.
@tr33sPlease Yeah, the banana was a terrible analogy but it got the point across. And, vapes are WAY more damaging to people than guns. Don't you watch the news. LOL Guns don't kill people. But, vapes are a murderous group of evil devices that prey on children and will take your life without hesitation. Damn those killer vapes. LOL
Removing the word vape from your company is definitely a good idea right now but I think some might believe that is the end all answer and the only thing that will need to be done. And, I was saying, I don't think it's going to be that easy. Would be nice. But, this is 21st century America and nothing is easy. LOL I think a few sellers are going to have to end up in court and prove one way or another if their product is a vape or not. And, if you have to fight the ATF in court.... bring your wallet. Because they will surely empty it for you.
I guess time will tell. I know one thing. As soon as you can't... you want to. LOL I have been scouring the internet and buying vapes in a frenzy. LOL
I miss puffitup.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
I am astonished people are still thinking this is going to be some naming issue. The law is designed to keep completely legal products out of the hands of children. Claiming an already illegal product (paraphernalia) is not covered by the law in court, might get you out of VapeBan trouble, but put you right into paraphernalia trouble. If you do go to court, few attorneys will advise a client to plead to a different felony to get out of the one arrested upon.
The answer is going to be more expensive shipment for all our aromatic needs.
While disruption is going to happen in the near term, there will still be shipping and distribution of the items targeted at some point. I loved @Hackerman 's idea to talk to a local retailer to see if a system can be set up to keep things all legal. The cool part is that it SATISFIES all the stated goals of the law WITHOUT trying to wordsmith your way out of anything. Wordsmith's are great and everything, but, it's hard to be the first guy to make the argument.
The answer is going to be more expensive shipment for all our aromatic needs.
While disruption is going to happen in the near term, there will still be shipping and distribution of the items targeted at some point. I loved @Hackerman 's idea to talk to a local retailer to see if a system can be set up to keep things all legal. The cool part is that it SATISFIES all the stated goals of the law WITHOUT trying to wordsmith your way out of anything. Wordsmith's are great and everything, but, it's hard to be the first guy to make the argument.