The most important vaporization discussion we need to have. (Your Vape Mail)

florduh

Well-Known Member

What a lovely young lady. I like that despite her livelihood being threatened by this bullshit, she can speak on it for 20 minutes without ranting and raving. Can't say the same for myself. EightVape was my go-to when I was hooked on nicotine too.

I looked up this new shipping company. It doesn't look like it's much more expensive than FedEx or UPS. Here's part of their statement on vape shipping:

Unlike the USPS which had no choice but to dispense with shipping vaping items altogether, major shipping services like FedEx and UPS walked away and left consumers hanging by choice. But even with multiple carriers stepping away from vape shipping, vape fans wanting to shop online for their favorite juices, and devices can still receive the front door delivery they need thanks to shipping carrier ‘X’.

‘X’ has shrugged off the traditional approach taken by typical logistics carrier companies. Rather than shunning technology and avoiding field innovation, the ‘X’ team are tech-focused transportation pros. This forward thinking approach puts the company in the perfect position to successfully handle the new restrictions and regulations placed on vape deliveries with ease. ‘X’ has long made it their goal to fix the broken side of shipping logistics. From optimizing delivery routes to in-motion supply chain assets, this shipping carrier has an eye on the future. It’s clear that vape fans may have just found a “win” after the passing of the PACT Act after all.

 

Abysmal Vapor

Saturnine in my mind
Well what is happening is not right ,neither it is pleasant and for sure will have imPACT on the industry,but at least it will be decided on a state level ,also people will have delivery options and not gonna rely on physical shops. She mentioned that California wont tax the hardware ,only juices. I hope it works out just fine for everyone on your side of the pond ,if not you know who to NOT vote for on the next local elections,lol.
 

EliumVapor

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
What a lovely young lady. I like that despite her livelihood being threatened by this bullshit, she can speak on it for 20 minutes without ranting and raving. Can't say the same for myself. EightVape was my go-to when I was hooked on nicotine too.

I looked up this new shipping company. It doesn't look like it's much more expensive than FedEx or UPS. Here's part of their statement on vape shipping:



I posted about X a couple weeks ago. They seem very sketchy. I have reached out to them several times and gotten no response. Will let you know if they ever get back to me.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
I posted about X a couple weeks ago. They seem very sketchy. I have reached out to them several times and gotten no response. Will let you know if they ever get back to me.

Please do. The marketing speak is pretty off-putting. I wonder if they're just getting slammed right now. And they're probably focusing on companies like Eightvape that do shit tons of volume.

"X" is a fucking stupid name too.
 

Abysmal Vapor

Saturnine in my mind
Please do. The marketing speak is pretty off-putting. I wonder if they're just getting slammed right now. And they're probably focusing on companies like Eightvape that do shit tons of volume.

"X" is a fucking stupid name too.
Reminds me of a Gyros/Duner joint across the street called "Molly" and under it at 4-5 different places "It is not what you are thinking" ..
 
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Abysmal Vapor,
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florduh

Well-Known Member
I'm curious to know who sells 500+ dry herb vape devices daily?

It's the nicotine people. That's where the big money is. Maybe if this really takes off, the minimum can be lowered. We're running into the same problem that got us into this mess: the dry herb vape market is too small to have any influence.
 

EliumVapor

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
It's the nicotine people. That's where the big money is. Maybe if this really takes off, the minimum can be lowered. We're running into the same problem that got us into this mess: the dry herb vape market is too small to have any influence.
Correct. They sell 500+ packages a day easy over at 8vape or similar sites.
 

BrianTL

Westchester, NY
I'd take this article with a grain of salt... for whatever reason this website always rubbed me the wrong way, plus the author seems to write every single article there and they always reek of click bait... sucked me right in today though :lol:


While I didn't really find any super helpful info, it did point me in the direction of this, which gives me a bit more hope that we might end up being ok:



Again nothing definitive by any means but it appears the USPS is at least open to considering exemptions... possibly exemptions for vaporizers intended to be used with legal hemp product? Or did I completely misunderstand... entirely possible
 
BrianTL,

flammy

Well-Known Member
I'd take this article with a grain of salt... for whatever reason this website always rubbed me the wrong way, plus the author seems to write every single article there and they always reek of click bait... sucked me right in today though :lol:


While I didn't really find any super helpful info, it did point me in the direction of this, which gives me a bit more hope that we might end up being ok:



Again nothing definitive by any means but it appears the USPS is at least open to considering exemptions... possibly exemptions for vaporizers intended to be used with legal hemp product? Or did I completely misunderstand... entirely possible

That article is a bit misleading. The only exemption that the USPS proposed to apply to ENDS is the business/regulatory exception. They did have an open comment period where you could advocate for the inclusion of the consumer testing/public health exception but that period closed at the end of March and was largely misused as a way to ask the USPS to provide a carve out for cannabis vapes or dry herb vapes.

I will put here one last thing that should put to rest the debate as it relates to the interpretation of ENDS and more specifically "through an aerosolized solution". The USPS also published a notice on the Register when they opened the comment period as it relates to the potential exemptions on 2/19/21 and within that notice they provide a definition of an ENDS (https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...1-03393/treatment-of-e-cigarettes-in-the-mail):

"ENDS are electronic devices and their components and fillers, which deliver either nicotine or non-nicotine substances to a user when a liquid is vaporized, and the resulting vapor inhaled."

The phrase "when a liquid is vaporized" is pretty clear and conforms to the interpretation that a device needs to be capable of aerosolizing a solution to be considered an ENDS.
 

EliumVapor

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
That article is a bit misleading. The only exemption that the USPS proposed to apply to ENDS is the business/regulatory exception. They did have an open comment period where you could advocate for the inclusion of the consumer testing/public health exception but that period closed at the end of March and was largely misused as a way to ask the USPS to provide a carve out for cannabis vapes or dry herb vapes.

I will put here one last thing that should put to rest the debate as it relates to the interpretation of ENDS and more specifically "through an aerosolized solution". The USPS also published a notice on the Register when they opened the comment period as it relates to the potential exemptions on 2/19/21 and within that notice they provide a definition of an ENDS (https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...1-03393/treatment-of-e-cigarettes-in-the-mail):

"ENDS are electronic devices and their components and fillers, which deliver either nicotine or non-nicotine substances to a user when a liquid is vaporized, and the resulting vapor inhaled."

The phrase "when a liquid is vaporized" is pretty clear and conforms to the interpretation that a device needs to be capable of aerosolizing a solution to be considered an ENDS.
The definition does not say it has to be a liquid. It says “any other substance” which can be a loose leaf herb

“Under this definition, an ENDS is any electronic device that, through an aerosolized solution, delivers nicotine, flavor, or any other substance to the user inhaling from the device.”

It even goes on to clarify that it includes the following which can clearly include dry herb vaporizers.

“advanced refillable personal vaporizers, and electronic pipes.”
 

flammy

Well-Known Member
The definition does not say it has to be a liquid. It says “any other substance” which can be a loose leaf herb

“Under this definition, an ENDS is any electronic device that, through an aerosolized solution, delivers nicotine, flavor, or any other substance to the user inhaling from the device.”

It even goes on to clarify that it includes the following which can clearly include dry herb vaporizers.

“advanced refillable personal vaporizers, and electronic pipes.”

"ENDS are electronic devices and their components and fillers, which deliver either nicotine or non-nicotine substances to a user when a liquid is vaporized, and the resulting vapor inhaled."

I understand that you have found a way to interpret it differently but why ignore the above in its entirety? Also, "advanced refillable personal vaporizers, and electronic pipes.” in no way means that dry herb vapes are included....It means that its possible. However, that possibility is quashed by the above statement direct from USPS and the FDA definition of an ENDS.

So why ignore the FDA definition as well?

"ENDS are noncombustible tobacco products. These products use an “e-liquid” that may contain nicotine, as well as varying compositions of flavorings, propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, and other ingredients. The liquid is heated to create an aerosol that the user inhales. "

I am hard pressed to interpret that in a way that suits your narrative.


Also the "any other substance" speaks of what is delivered via the vapor...whether it be nicotine, CBD, THC or otherwise. That isn't an attempt to clarify the medium in which the substance is delivered through. One thing that we can easily both agree on is that your company's product is definitely an ENDS based either of our interpretations.
 
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Tranquility

Well-Known Member
"ENDS are electronic devices and their components and fillers, which deliver either nicotine or non-nicotine substances to a user when a liquid is vaporized, and the resulting vapor inhaled."

I understand that you have found a way to interpret it differently but why ignore the above in its entirety? Also, "advanced refillable personal vaporizers, and electronic pipes.” in no way means that dry herb vapes are included....It means that its possible. However, that possibility is quashed by the above statement direct from USPS and the FDA definition of an ENDS.

So why ignore the FDA definition as well?

"ENDS are noncombustible tobacco products. These products use an “e-liquid” that may contain nicotine, as well as varying compositions of flavorings, propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, and other ingredients. The liquid is heated to create an aerosol that the user inhales. "

I am hard pressed to interpret that in a way that suits your narrative.


Also the "any other substance" speaks of what is delivered via the vapor...whether it be nicotine, CBD, THC or otherwise. That isn't an attempt to clarify the medium in which the substance is delivered through. One thing that we can easily both agree on is that your company's product is definitely an ENDS based either of our interpretations.


Do you know of anyone staking their freedom on your interpretation as yet? It seems at least one group, the one you've replied to, has come to a different conclusion. A different conclusion that materially affects their livelihood.

It seems the statute is written quite broadly and borrows from other statutes, like on paraphernalia, that use the exact same language and clearly covers dry herb vapes. That does not means "ENDS" covers the same things, it's just suggestive it does. At least in the penumbras of what might happen. Again, no one wants to end up in federal court defending themselves on this and no one in any official capacity are claiming dry herb vapes are OK. (Notwithstanding the paraphernalia issue.) No politician is rushing to rewrite the law to make it more plain that nicotine is the issue and not the process of ingestion. The FDA does not seem to be looking at any guidance to exclude dry herb vapes either. Is it they don't think they are excepted or is it no vape manufacturer has asked?

Even "programmable software" is an example of a component of ENDS. Too bad software need not be mailed, else we might get Microsoft on our side. It would certainly hurry the just and reasonable interpretations of the law I think you are focusing on. However, until then, I would not be the guy looking to be an example to some federal prosecutor who is "thinking of the children" and who would get drug warrior cred for a successful prosecution as well.
 

flammy

Well-Known Member
Do you know of anyone staking their freedom on your interpretation as yet? It seems at least one group, the one you've replied to, has come to a different conclusion. A different conclusion that materially affects their livelihood.

It seems the statute is written quite broadly and borrows from other statutes, like on paraphernalia, that use the exact same language and clearly covers dry herb vapes. That does not means "ENDS" covers the same things, it's just suggestive it does. At least in the penumbras of what might happen. Again, no one wants to end up in federal court defending themselves on this and no one in any official capacity are claiming dry herb vapes are OK. (Notwithstanding the paraphernalia issue.) No politician is rushing to rewrite the law to make it more plain that nicotine is the issue and not the process of ingestion. The FDA does not seem to be looking at any guidance to exclude dry herb vapes either. Is it they don't think they are excepted or is it no vape manufacturer has asked?

Even "programmable software" is an example of a component of ENDS. Too bad software need not be mailed, else we might get Microsoft on our side. It would certainly hurry the just and reasonable interpretations of the law I think you are focusing on. However, until then, I would not be the guy looking to be an example to some federal prosecutor who is "thinking of the children" and who would get drug warrior cred for a successful prosecution as well.

Yes, there are definitely retailers that are still shipping dry herb vapes....I believe Vgoodiez and CCV are still shipping (checked both websites and you can still order from both). As mentioned before, PIU released a statement clarifying that they shut down due to losing a merchant service provider which was most likely caused indirectly by confusion over the PACT Act amendment. Also, the manufacturer that I am replying is correct to be concerned with PACT Act as their products are considered an ENDS under both of our interpretations since it is a concentrate device.

Also, its not as if there weren't risks previously. There are viable defenses to the paraphernalia law but there are absolutely still risks despite those work arounds. When it comes to the software example that you are referencing, depending on whether that software is designed to drive a legitimate ENDS, it should be an issue. Exceptions to the PACT Act requirements will be granted once they open up the application process albeit that process is anticipated to be a massive cluster due to the fact they anticipate a deluge of applications as soon as they put out their final ruling.

As I also previously mentioned, I am in no way stating that its all sunshine and rainbows for the industry at this point. Writing on the wall seems to indicate that similar regulations could come down the pike for cannabis related devices which will require an approval process similar to the PTMA.
 
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flammy,
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EliumVapor

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Yes, there are definitely retailers that are still shipping dry herb vapes....I believe Vgoodiez and CCV are still shipping (checked both websites and you can still order from both). As mentioned before, PIU released a statement clarifying that they shut down due to losing a merchant service provider which was most likely caused indirectly by confusion over the PACT Act amendment. Also, the manufacturer that I am replying is correct to be concerned with PACT Act as their products are considered an ENDS under both of our interpretations since it is a concentrate device.

As I also previously mentioned, I am in no way stating that its all sunshine and rainbows for the industry at this point. Writing on the wall seems to indicate that similar regulations could come down the pike for cannabis related devices which will require an approval process similar to the PTMA.
We have hired 3 separate law firms to look into this. We have a lot riding on it as we are in the middle of a fundraising round and we have to be 100% clear with investors on what the situation is due to the legal nature of raising funds. These aren’t all small firms they are top firms in tobacco law, business law and a more broad government regulations law. Not a single lawyer at any of these firms agrees that dry herb vapes are not included. In fact they have made it clear that they are. They also agree the only way around this is to ship B2B and have customer pick up in a retail location. The penalty for violating this law will be $5,000 per infraction (that is per device shipped) and up to 3 years in federal prison if found to be a repeat offender.


Now I will say there are large manufacturers like PAX which are still shipping to most states but they are shipping product from Canada to a facility in California owned by DCL then repackaging it so there is no label that mentions what is inside and shipping through DCL. DCL is a logistics company that ships thousands of types of products. If this turns out to be a solution it may work for them but DCL won’t even ship to every state and you still have to put your last 4 of your social in and the. Sign for the package.


My advice is for smaller manufacturers and resellers to be careful. PAX can afford to fight this in court while most of us cannot.
 
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flammy

Well-Known Member
We have hired 3 separate law firms to look into this. We have a lot riding on it as we are in the middle of a fundraising round and we have to be 100% clear with investors on what the situation is due to the legal nature of raising funds. These aren’t all small firms they are top firms in tobacco law, business law and a more broad government regulations law. Not a single lawyer at any of these firms agrees that dry herb vapes are not included. In fact they have made it clear that they are. They also agree the only way around this is to ship B2B and have customer pick up in a retail location. The penalty for violating this law will be $5,000 per infraction (that is per device shipped) and up to 3 years in federal prison if found to be a repeat offender.
Now I will say there are large manufacturers like PAX which are still shipping to most states but they are shipping product from Canada to a facility in California owned by DCL then repackaging it so there is no label that mentions what is inside and shipping through DCL. DCL is a logistics company that ships thousands of types of products. If this turns out to be a solution it may work for them but DCL won’t even ship to every state and you still have to put your last 4 of your social in and the. Sign for the package.
My advice is for smaller manufacturers and resellers to be careful. PAX can afford to fight this in court while most of us cannot.

As I previously mentioned, I absolutely agree that your products are affected unfortunately by PACT. I haven't hired anyone to look into this but I work in a very legally intensive side of finance and as such I have a lot of colleagues who are attorneys. While none of them work specifically in the tobacco or cannabis industry, they all agreed with my interpretation of "through an aerosolized solution". I am curious as to which firms gave you an opinion that dry herb vapes are included and I will message separately to see if you are willing to share. Also, I am not trying to make light of the issues that your company is going through as a result of PACT. I can see how those requirements would be very cumbersome for a smaller company and I sincerely wish you all the best in getting past those hurdles.
 

EliumVapor

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
As I previously mentioned, I absolutely agree that your products are affected unfortunately by PACT. I haven't hired anyone to look into this but I work in a very legally intensive side of finance and as such I have a lot of colleagues who are attorneys. While none of them work specifically in the tobacco or cannabis industry, they all agreed with my interpretation of "through an aerosolized solution". I am curious as to which firms gave you an opinion that dry herb vapes are included and I will message separately to see if you are willing to share. Also, I am not trying to make light of the issues that your company is going through as a result of PACT. I can see how those requirements would be very cumbersome for a smaller company and I sincerely wish you all the best in getting past those hurdles.
The part of the puzzle you are missing is that while Elium (our flagship product) is clearly a extract device it is not the only device in our pipeline. It’s just the most advanced and easiest one for us to distinguish ourselves with as a new brand. We are also working on a dry herb only device as well as 3 other devices which will come out down the road.

Due to my position within my company (S.E. Research and Design) I am not able to give out inside information to the workings of our company. This includes law firms and their opinion letters. But we hired top firms in the specific fields that deal with broad government regulatory law and tobacco law specifically.

I will say this again. To any company trying to create their own interpretation of this law and continue shipping their product as they have been I simply say be careful. I’m not saying do or don’t do it. I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m just attempting to give a warning as I’ve spent the better part of the past 3 months working on this issue.
 

BrianTL

Westchester, NY
For what it’s worth I used a UPS access point the other day to pick up a package and it was a pain in the ass lol. Not vape related to just a replacement speaker, signature required tho and I wasn’t home.

it was a cell phone store, a “total wireless.” Walked into an existing line of irate customers because the guy behind the counter was taking forever, people were waiting and yelling at the guy. Then I assume the owner or manager walks in and right past everybody and goes into the back office and sits down eating a sandwich. After about 10-15 minutes of this shitty situation I just walk past all these people and go into the back office and ask this guy eating his sandwich if this is where they keep the UPS packages...the guy at the counter hears this and runs back to look for my package. I guess he thought I was waiting for a cell phone.

anyways he hands me my package and I go on my merry way, wishing the customers good luck. But I’m still getting emails (picked up Monday, today Thursday) from UPS saying if I don’t pick up my package by tomorrow, they’re returning to sender. Not really sure how that’ll work as I definitely have the right package...I never signed for it tho

0/10 recommend access point pick up and also it’s kinda complete bullshit because they used to make up to 3 deliveries before automatically transferring it to the distribution center for pick up or I guess now it’s the access points... now it’s just one missed attempt and it goes. Plus the driver’s note just said the street number and street name. No town/city, zip, name of the store, nothing. And it wasn’t even in my town...so that was annoying
 

EliumVapor

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
For what it’s worth I used a UPS access point the other day to pick up a package and it was a pain in the ass lol. Not vape related to just a replacement speaker, signature required tho and I wasn’t home.

it was a cell phone store, a “total wireless.” Walked into an existing line of irate customers because the guy behind the counter was taking forever, people were waiting and yelling at the guy. Then I assume the owner or manager walks in and right past everybody and goes into the back office and sits down eating a sandwich. After about 10-15 minutes of this shitty situation I just walk past all these people and go into the back office and ask this guy eating his sandwich if this is where they keep the UPS packages...the guy at the counter hears this and runs back to look for my package. I guess he thought I was waiting for a cell phone.

anyways he hands me my package and I go on my merry way, wishing the customers good luck. But I’m still getting emails (picked up Monday, today Thursday) from UPS saying if I don’t pick up my package by tomorrow, they’re returning to sender. Not really sure how that’ll work as I definitely have the right package...I never signed for it tho

0/10 recommend access point pick up and also it’s kinda complete bullshit because they used to make up to 3 deliveries before automatically transferring it to the distribution center for pick up or I guess now it’s the access points... now it’s just one missed attempt and it goes. Plus the driver’s note just said the street number and street name. No town/city, zip, name of the store, nothing. And it wasn’t even in my town...so that was annoying
We spoke extensively with UPS and their legal department and they made it clear access points will not work for this. However we are still looking into in store pickup as an option. The key will be verifying ID at the point of pickup. Again I am only giving a warning with these statements because I care about this industry and the smaller companies in it. Everyone must decide how they move forward on their own.
 

BrianTL

Westchester, NY
We spoke extensively with UPS and their legal department and they made it clear access points will not work for this. However we are still looking into in store pickup as an option. The key will be verifying ID at the point of pickup. Again I am only giving a warning with these statements because I care about this industry and the smaller companies in it. Everyone must decide how they move forward on their own.
Right I remember you saying the access point will not work but maybe the in store pick up would. I was just reminded of this thread and talking about those access points when I went into that shit show to pick up a package...clearly not managed well at all lol
 

EliumVapor

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Right I remember you saying the access point will not work but maybe the in store pick up would. I was just reminded of this thread and talking about those access points when I went into that shit show to pick up a package...clearly not managed well at all lol
I truly hope a clear and undeniable solution to this problem arises and we can all move forward. This whole thing has caused me endless hours of stress and disappointment in the system.
 

Abysmal Vapor

Saturnine in my mind
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