The MMA Discussion Dojo

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
oh man, we haven't even had a chance to talk about Torres losing last night. In a weekend where the P4P guys all re-established themselves, unfortunately, this loss knocks Torres down several notches.

What do you guys think, is Bowles legit, or is he a Matt Serra?
 
stonemonkey55,

jklasd

Well-Known Member
bowles is very legit. hes the real deal. hes not on torres level. he made an mistake and got caught. torres is a beast. and everyone falls now and again. fedor will, anderson will, gsp did, and would probably do it again.
 
jklasd,

Pseudonymous

Nameless
I don't really follow those weight classes much at all. I find it hard to buy into all the hype on the guy when I've never heard of any of his opponents though.
 
Pseudonymous,

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
Pseudo - you gotta go to Versus or youtube and look for more of Miguel Torres fight. He has a very similar skill set to Anderson Silva in that he is a very lanky guy with awesome striking and lethal JJ. Silva has an edge in striking but Torres has a better ground game IMO.

I understand why it would be hard to buy into the hype when you haven;t heard of any of his opponents but this weight class is just starting to get national exposure and i believe just like boxing, people will begin gravitating to watching the lighter weights due to the higher work rate and action level.
 
stonemonkey55,

Pseudonymous

Nameless
I'm not leaving out the possibility that he is legit, you can't be a champion in a big organization like that and not be legit. But to be calling him amongst the best pound for pound? I don't know. The hype is too much and this recent loss backs me up, I think.

Though it's impossible to know how legit these people are because it is a relatively new weight division. In a few more years it'll be easier to gauge things. As for Versus, I don't have it. I'm not sure if it's available in Canada.
 
Pseudonymous,

NoSmoke

Well-Known Member
Is it pretty safe to say that Fedor will not lose a match during his contract with Strikeforce? Who do they have who's even on the same level, or close for that matter? Joe Rogans trying to say the cage will throw him off, has he been watching his fights? Fedor is a beast!
 
NoSmoke,

Pseudonymous

Nameless
Of course Rogan has been watching his fights. Rogan even says that he is the best fighter there is. But I also think the cage could throw him off. Furthermore, anyone can get caught.

Though with that said, I expect Fedor to retire undefeated.
 
Pseudonymous,

jklasd

Well-Known Member
pseudo- to say you dont buy into the hype because YOU haven't heard of any of his opponents, especially after you said you dont follow those weight classes, is ignorant. not trying to be disrespectful, but you cannot comment on something you already said you have no idea who they are. as for watching his fights, tsn2 aired it. plus, your on an mma torrent site. download it. download all of miguel. you will see why they say hes number 4 in the world, pound for pound. perhaps not after this loss, but to me, he will come back his next fight, even better, then beat the fuck out of that guy, then get the shot and take back the belt. bowles is a very talented guy. but as i said before, i dont think on the same level as torres. "But to be calling him amongst the best pound for pound? I don't know." but you haven't watch him. you dont know his opponents. you cant judge him. its like saying well this food sucks, but i never had it.
nosmoke- the problem with fedor now is that his record is not truely going to show his p4p ranking. his level of opponents hurts him. and signing with strikeforce is even worse. but i stand by the fact that every great fighter will lose. and fedor is no exception. but for the sake of arguement, lets say he does not lose and retires. are people really gonna look at his record and be like o shit, he beat the best in the world. no, they are going to say, wow, at one time, he was facing the best, then just took on less talented guys. this is like anderson and leitas and cote. they dont belong with anderson. they didn't desaerve a shot. the 185 weight class was a joke for the ufc at the time, and still is, but at least they have hendo and belfort there now.
 
jklasd,

Pseudonymous

Nameless
No, to buy into the hype would be ignorant. I just see him as another good fighter. The information seems adequate for that. If I bought into the hype without knowing his opponents, then that would be promoting ignorance. I am ignorant toward Torres such that I do not know much about him. That's it. I'm completely justified in not buying into the hype, and if he was such a pound for pound king, then I don't think he would have lost like he did. That seems to validate me not buying into the hype.

I don't like his mullet. Pfft.

"But to be calling him amongst the best pound for pound? I don't know." but you haven't watch him. you dont know his opponents. you cant judge him. its like saying well this food sucks, but i never had it.

See, what I'm doing is exactly not really judging him. Where did I say he sucked?
 
Pseudonymous,

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
That's it. I'm completely justified in not buying into the hype, and if he was such a pound for pound king, then I don't think he would have lost like he did. That seems to validate me not buying into the hype.
Pseudo - just because the man lost his first fight in 6 years doesn't make him any less of a P4P guy. At least the guy he lost to was the top contender. Look at GSP's loss to Serra, or Anderson's loss to Ryo Chonan - wins and losses happen in MMA but if you look at their body of work, the way they dealt with their contemporaries, then unequivovally, Miguel Torres is top P4P guy

Just because you have heard of him or his opponents doesn't mean underground heads haven't been following him. Manny Pacquiao has been tearing up the boxing scene since the late 90's and is only really being recognized for his accomplishments recently because he fought bigger marquee names, but the most recent conquests aren't his most impressive. Morales and Barrera > Hatton and De La Hoya in my eyes.
 
stonemonkey55,

NoSmoke

Well-Known Member
Ricky Hatton is overated IMO, he may be the best in England, but here its different, he got knocked out by mr. Softy himself Floyd Mayweather who's so scared of Paqquiao and Cotto its not even funny, but boxing nowadays is like an old man in a nuring home, nobodys wants to see it!! Its sad... Could Fedor be the next Hatton??? LOL
 
NoSmoke,

jklasd

Well-Known Member
pseudo- i also have to disagree with the hype comment. miguel does not get very much hype beside from the fighters themselves, most notable frank mir. hype is what lyoto got before he beat ortiz. and continues to get. yes hes a great fighter, but why is he in p4p when he beat one guy on the way out and one other big name guy in evans. thiago silva is not a huge name. is he the real deal? fuck yes. but i fail to include him with GSP, silva and fedor due to his lack of true LHW opponents. shogun is a good opponent for him. rampage up next(i hope). he beat those guys, its right into there. but miguel gets very little "hype." it also cant be hype if hes the real deal. 17 fight win streak.
i disagree with "lost the way he did." this is not anderson-griffin. yes he got caught. but bowles wasn't beating the fuck out of him. he was actually backing up because torres hit him with a couple good shots that stunned bowles. and let his gaurd down. a mistake. every great fighter makes them. ask GSP. as faber. a lost doesn't hurt you in p4p greatness imo. it just shows everyone can be beat.
 
jklasd,

Pseudonymous

Nameless
Woah, woah, woah, wait a second. Machida's probably the best fighter on the go now, recent stats have been cited that he only gets hit something like once every 2 rounds. He easily beats people without taking any damage at all. I don't care who his opponents were, they were good enough to get into the UFC. Besides, he beat up Rich Franklin before, and Evans is legit.

Tito is also definitely not on his way out. Tito is still very legit. Sokoudjou isn't a slouch, either. Machida and hype? Really? The guy who up until recently was called the most boring fighter in the UFC? Really?

I'll retract some of what I said because some of you made some good points, but at the same time, the division is admittedly new. So I'm not backing up all the way. If I didn't address anything you think I should have, let me know. I didn't get much sleep at all last night, so I'm really not in the mood to scour the statements again, heh.
 
Pseudonymous,

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
The only thing that I'd make a comment about is that the division that Torres is in is NOT a new division. Its just starting to finally get some well deserved attention
 
stonemonkey55,

jklasd

Well-Known Member
at least since 2003.
you cannot say lyoto is the best fighter on the go. tito is not a striker, not getting hit by him is easy. rich franklin was YEARS ago. shit, why not bring up BJ and how lyoto beat him? tito is not legit, sorry. his last win is ken shamrock. really? lyoto is a great fighter. didn't say he wasn't but his opponents have not been the type that make a p4p guy. will he be? of course, no doubt, maybe even number, but hes not on that high on that list yet. i also named evans as being legit, didn't discredit that win. and to say his opponents are good enough to get into the UFC is not exactly a point you should wanna make for a guy who is "p4p top 5". he should be fighting better guys, not guys who just make it to the ufc. not to mention, while Sokoudjou is a good fighter, he wasn't impressive in any of his fights in the ufc, nor since. he got 2 big KOs and have done very little since. to not get hit at this level is amazing, lyoto is that good. but getting hit with the lowest % in the ufc, just means that someone chances of knocking him out are less, not undoable. again, i cant stress enough how much is opponents are not amazing. evans yes. but besides that? not really.
 
jklasd,

Pseudonymous

Nameless
I didn't bring that up because BJ fighting at LHW is lulz.

I just don't understand how you can at all fault a guy who, well... actually makes no faults. I don't care who his opponents were. You have to be near god-like to perform like Lyoto has performed.

Tito beat the last two LHW champs, too. Everyone ignores this. He's legit. Who has he lost to? Only absolute top-tier competition.

The Nortje fight was impressive enough to me. Nortje sucks, yeah, but Sokoudjou finally showed that he was a judoka before he was a mixed martial artist and Machida made him look somewhat similar to how Anderson made Forrest look. Anyone who can perform at such a high level consistently is undeniably good. There's just no way around it.

Another obligatory mention of Tito beat Evans.
 
Pseudonymous,

jklasd

Well-Known Member
tito beat evans, who is not the evans of today. thats completely different. im not faulting the guy, i said hes great. but hes not p4p until he faces those opponents.
i dont ignore what tito did, he beat a griffin who is not griffin of today(while anderson destroyed him griffin, griffin is still a great fighter) and evan who is not evan of today, as i stated. tito was relevent. back in 2004. he ducked liddell for years. hes not anymore.
again, im not saying hes not good. im simply saying he should not be in the same breathe as gsp fedor or silva until he proves he can DO that against them, like fedor, like gsp and like silva.
 
jklasd,

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
Dude, Notje is super wack dude, any victory in the super hulk tournament should have an asterisk by it. Soko is an awesome offensive fighter and hopefully when his defense improves, he'll be able to hang with top level dudes. He's training with the right guys, I just think he got thrown in with elite fighters to soon.

I'm a beleiver in Machida being a top P4P guy. His resume isn't as strong as the others but the way he won against top level competition is what really stands out to me. Would love to see someone find a chink in Lyoto's armor to see how he reacts to extreme adversity. I have no doubt he will rise to the occassion, but until I see his go tooth and nail against someone, that's part of his game that is still a mystery to me.
 
stonemonkey55,

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
Damn, I was looking forward to this fight (Diaz/Hieron) :(

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=9345&zoneid=4

I dunno if Tito is still an elite level guy. As of right now, I think he is a gatekeeper in the UFC as his only notable victories were against a green Forrest Griffin in the last 5 years or so. I hope he still has something in the gas tank but all the numerous injuries to his back and knees really affect his double leg and his ability to keep pressing.
 
stonemonkey55,

owin

Well-Known Member
I love Forrest but that was just sad to watch. He got fucking destroyed. Anderson Silva is becoming more of a douchebag every day but I guess when you're that much of a badass you can do whatever you want.
 
owin,

Pseudonymous

Nameless
Well, the offering the hand to him to help him up like he seems to be doing a lot lately I just don't like. I don't care how good he is. It's disrespect and has no place in a sportsman's repertoire.
 
Pseudonymous,

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
Anyone that knows Anderson Silva's approach to martial arts knows that he is not being disrespectful when he offers his hands to helps someone up. He's not doing it in a "I'm so much superior to you that I will help you up" type of way. The guy is a true sportsmen, ambassador of the sport, and if you guys saw his gesture as something negative, then you don't know enough about the Spider. I've been in the sport since 1995, and while I don;'t know the guy personally, I have been to his seminars and read many of his thoughts on martial arts philosophy. If he offers his hand to help someone, he's doing it out of respect, not disrespect.

Guys like him and Lyoto, come from traditional martial arts background where respect for your teacher, students, and opponents are just as important as how lethal your punches and kicks are.

The way Lesnar acts, now that is douchbaggery at its worst/finest
 
stonemonkey55,

jklasd

Well-Known Member
sm-
His resume isn't as strong as the others but the way he won against top level competition is what really stands out to me
but thats my point. his only true top level competition was evans. yes the other guys are all skilled that he faced and destroyed, but they were not the elite in the LHW division. when he fought tito, no one was saying, omg, hes fighting tito, a guy in his prime whos destorying everyone. it was the tito who bitched and moan after every lost because of his back. im sure it was bothering him, but before the fights, he was saying hes 100% then after says he wasn't? and only after losses. lyoto hasn't beat the rampages, the shoguns (soon?), and yes, the griffin, despite his recent loss. he still has that question mark to him, as you also said, bout how does he deal with pressure. this fight will prove alot, IF shogun is the shogun of old.
i also completely agree with the anderson assessment that you said, bout the reaching out to help him out. its a very good point that there are guys who are so respectful and so good that when they help their opponent up, it seems cocky. but its just how they were taught. you beat a guy, you help him out. you see it all the time with hard fought vistories. why cant anderson do it after beating the shit out of the guy? in my mind, hes saying, thanks for taking the fight, thanks for showing up, i respect you as a fighter and your skills, hopefully one day we can meet again.
 
jklasd,

Pseudonymous

Nameless
His intentions may be genuine. I don't know. Even if they are, though, I still contend it's disrespectful. It's entirely possible for a given action with good intentions to have a bad result. There's absolutely no problem with doing it after the fight, but during the fight isn't proper sports protocol as I see it. I wasn't comparing him to the likes of Lesnar at all.

I'll never change my mind that Sokoudjou, Tito, and Evans were great victories. Who else could beat all three the way he beat them? Who else could even beat all three?

Rampage doesn't impress me that much anymore. He has absolutely nothing for Machida. There's no way in hell Rampage could win that fight.
 
Pseudonymous,
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