The MMA Discussion Dojo

[stonemonkey55]

At the end of the day, I dunno who these fighters are and if there TV personas are for TV or just how they are in real life. That is why I always back whoever I think has the best work ethic.

Jklasd - I'd be willing to bet that Lesnar would serve any super heavyweight out there the same way he did Mir in. Don't understand why people keep thinking he is this one dimensional fighter that can only wrestle and lay on top of people. He's already shown decent boxing, his submission defense looked great against Mir, and his finishing instincts were there as well. No one says that Thiago Alves only punches and strikes (let's be real here, that's ALL he ever does) and that's all he'll ever be... You don't beat guys like Herring, Couture, and Mir if all you can do is wrestle.

 

[owin]

I'm gonna have to disagree there with you stonemonkey. All Brock has is ridiculous strength and great wrestling. His submission defense consisted of him holding Frank with 1 arm and pounding him with the other. His striking is not very good at all but when he has that kind of power it doesn't really matter. You can't tell me that after watching that fight you can say wow Brock is a great mixed martial artist. All that he did was take Frank down and hold him with one arm while he punched him repeatedly in the face with the other. That is called great wrestling and strength.

The guy is a dick and still thinks he is in the WWE. He views this as entertainment not a sport which is sad for guys like GSP who are as classy as they come and view it as the greatest sport out there. Either way Brock is going to sell tons of tickets and PPV because people like seeing assholes get beat.

Also, Brock comes into these fights around 280-290. That's like a LHW fighting a LW. Rampage would probably destroy the LW's just like Brock is doing to the HW's. Size and strength do play a big role especially when you have good wrestling to back it up.

 

[Pseudonymous]

What matters most is what the athletes have done. Brock Lesnar ended the monumental UFC 100 by essentially making it a circus act. It wasn't good for the sport and I can't respect a guy who would do that, even just for show. It was a dumb move and he should be smarter than that.

To owin, your comparison is bad. You shouldn't go by differences alone. Someone who is 1,000,000 lbs. vs. someone who is 1,000,100 lbs. is not the same as someone who is 200 lbs. fighting someone else who is 100 lbs.

 

[owin]

What matters most is what the athletes have done. Brock Lesnar ended the monumental UFC 100 by essentially making it a circus act. It wasn't good for the sport and I can't respect a guy who would do that, even just for show. It was a dumb move and he should be smarter than that.

To owin, your comparison is bad. You shouldn't go by differences alone. Someone who is 1,000,000 lbs. vs. someone who is 1,000,100 lbs. is not the same as someone who is 200 lbs. fighting someone else who is 100 lbs.

So you don't think there is a big difference between 290 and 240? Seems kind of crazy to me. I mean technically HW is 225-265. If a guy came in at 225 or 230 against brock do you really think it would still be even? That is a huge weight and strength difference. If the big guy takes you down and holds you down no amount of technique will save you. Look at GSP vs. BJ Penn. guy comes into his fights at 185ish and just destroys the other guy. Yeah he also has the technique to back it up which he clearly showed against Alves who is another beast.

edit: Also I don't really think there are too many athletes out there that can beat brock. The guys that have the natural strength and athleticism are out playing in the NFL or NBA or rugby making 10 times as much money as brock. So unless Dana can actually steal Fedor's soul, I mean sign him, Brock will probably stay champ for a long time. Winner of Cain and Carwin get brock? I don't know if either of those guys could beat him but I'd love to watch the fight.

 

[Pseudonymous]

No, I didn't say there wasn't a big difference, but it isn't as big as you seem to be making it out to be. In order to get a better idea, you should get a ratio of weights, not a difference.

BJ vs. GSP is also a pretty poor example, I think, for reasons similar to what you already stated. GSP is far more skilled than Brock, no question about it.

As for the big guys being in the NFL... have you seen the new cast of TUF?

 

[owin]

No, I didn't say there wasn't a big difference, but it isn't as big as you seem to be making it out to be. In order to get a better idea, you should get a ratio of weights, not a difference.

BJ vs. GSP is also a pretty poor example, I think, for reasons similar to what you already stated. GSP is far more skilled than Brock, no question about it.

As for the big guys being in the NFL... have you seen the new cast of TUF?

I didn't think that it was that big of a difference until I watched Brock manhandle Mir. I felt the same as you.

And yeah I saw the cast, but I was referring to guys like the guy that beat Brock in college wrestling. He ended up going to the NFL and was a lineman for the Patriots. (I forget his name) Or just think if a guy like Urlacher grew up training how to fight. He would be a beast.

My point is Brock is huge and strong and he is going to be hard to beat. Not impossible but hard. I don't even remember what we were arguing about now. All I know is we both agree Brock is bad image for the sport and was disrespectful to just about everyone that is important to his success. sponsors, fans, fighters, dana. And I can't wait to see him get his mouth shut. Something similar to what Henderson did to Bisping would be nice.

 

[Pseudonymous]

I don't really know anything about the NFL, to be honest. I just found it pretty funny how many ex-NFLers are on the upcoming season. I did see the fight that Brock lost though and it seemed kind of lame. Though I don't understand wrestling that much, either. The only discipline I can really comment on much is judo, and I am only a third kyu in that. I understand some BJJ from my judo training, but I hold absolutely no rank in BJJ.

I have heard the justification "well why aren't Bob Sapp and Hong Man Choi champions?" for Brock's skill. It isn't too bad of a justification, actually. There are obvious differences though. Brock has a chin, a lot of dedication, and is really a far better athlete than any of those guys. Far better. Bob Sapp is just huge. That's it. He's not really skilled. He's not really fast. He's strong, but at the same time, he doesn't seem to be able to use his strength that well. Brock is legit, but he'll be dethroned sometime.

Fedor would KO or submit him, same with Overeem. Carwin would land a single bomb. That'd be an interesting fight. But I'm not that impressed by Carwin, either.

As for what we were arguing, I think it was just on the comparison of Brock being a super heavyweight fighting against heavyweights vs. a light heavyweight fighting against a lightweight.

 

[owin]

Yeah I agree on Fedor and Overeem having the tools to beat Brock. I'm not sure if anyone in the UFC can do it. Maybe Carwin. I'd love to see a healthy Nog take him on too. Can't wait to see Fedor vs Barnett next month. Should be interesting to see what happens with both of those guys after that fight.

All I can say about Sapp and Hong Man Choi is lol. Those guys have no athleticism. Just two big motherfuckers. Sapp would tap out when Brock touched gloves with him before the fight.

 

[stonemonkey55]

I'm not saying what Brock did was good for the sport, but I do believe that is not his normal personality either. Based on what I've seen of his training, his life, etc etc, he seems like a simple man that loves a challenge and works tirelessly to get better. To me, being well rounded is overrated. If you have a skill set to win, and you do, then you are the better fighter than the other person. With that said, I don't condone what he said/did but I'm not shedding a tear for Mir either. That guy was nothing but disrespectful and he folds the second someone touches his face. Mir said that he was saying those things to build up and sell the fight but now he's acting like he's a victim.

Steve Neal is the guy that beat Brock in college, he's with the Patriots now.

The heavyweight weight bracket is more appropriate for boxing where sheer size isn't as big of a factor. Let's be real tho, there is no super heavyweight than can tough Lesnar either. If he didn't do those antics after the fight, does your opinion of him change? Watching him train, his dedication, his work ethic, I have nothing but respect for how he prepares himself for battle. While he may not have shown all his skills, when combined with all his other attributes, it makes him a worthy fighter.

If Brock were 20-30 lbs lighter with the same athleticism, I still see him doing all the thigns he can do today. He isn't holding people down by sheer brute force, watch the way he moves around the ring, around his opponent after he gets a hold of him, the guy has technique in spades. Its too bad his monstrous physique hides all of this but I see the skill shining thru

i love all this discourse btw!

 

[Pseudonymous]

The main thing that counts is what he did, though. Even if he's actually not an asshole, he chose to be one. That could even be seen as being worse. My opinion would change if he was a better sportsman. I used to hate Kimbo because I thought he was some random jackass street fighting jobber, but when he decided to make an MMA run with Bas and I started reading/hearing interviews with him, I started to really like him. He seemed very level headed, humble, and polite. That's all in question now after Bas dropped him and called him an asshole, but I don't know any details of that. I would like to like him.

Back to Lesnar, he doesn't seem like the lovable asshole to me, he just seems like a disrespectful asshole. As an example, I love Tito Ortiz and he'll try to trash talk to sell a fight just as much as anyone, but Lesnar does it far worse.

I agree that there aren't any super heavyweights who can beat Lesnar. Super heavyweights suck because none of them are 25% the athlete as Brock is. The ones I know of don't even touch him in skill.

I suppose it could also be relevant to say that I am against weight cutting because I think it contradicts the purpose of weight classes. Weigh-ins should be on the day of the contest. I don't think he would be as good if he was much lighter. He'd still be a force, for sure, but a large part of why he is successful (and why he should continue to be) is because he is pretty damn intimidating. People would fight him differently if he wasn't as big as he is.

Every forum should have an MMA thread!

 

[owin]

The main thing that counts is what he did, though. Even if he's actually not an asshole, he chose to be one. That could even be seen as being worse. My opinion would change if he was a better sportsman. I used to hate Kimbo because I thought he was some random jackass street fighting jobber, but when he decided to make an MMA run with Bas and I started reading/hearing interviews with him, I started to really like him. He seemed very level headed, humble, and polite. That's all in question now after Bas dropped him and called him an asshole, but I don't know any details of that. I would like to like him.

Back to Lesnar, he doesn't seem like the lovable asshole to me, he just seems like a disrespectful asshole. As an example, I love Tito Ortiz and he'll try to trash talk to sell a fight just as much as anyone, but Lesnar does it far worse.

I agree that there aren't any super heavyweights who can beat Lesnar. Super heavyweights suck because none of them are 25% the athlete as Brock is. The ones I know of don't even touch him in skill.

I suppose it could also be relevant to say that I am against weight cutting because I think it contradicts the purpose of weight classes. Weigh-ins should be on the day of the contest. I don't think he would be as good if he was much lighter. He'd still be a force, for sure, but a large part of why he is successful (and why he should continue to be) is because he is pretty damn intimidating. People would fight him differently if he wasn't as big as he is.

Every forum should have an MMA thread!

Exactly.

 

[stonemonkey55]

ok, Brock ain't even one of my top 100 fighters, lets move on to GSP/Alves

So who is impressed with Alves core strength and stand up ability. Usually when GSP gets on top of you, he is a blanket that you cannot get off. How weird was it to see Alves repeatedly get to his feet again?

And GSP single/double legs are ridiculous. Hughes/Kos/Paryisan all had trouble getting him down even once. Those two had their stock rise in my eyes, even in defeat, Alves proved he had a champions heart. To me he looked like the fresher of the two at the end of 5 rounds but GSP also had the groin issue so I'm not sure how much of a role that played in the outcome.

 

[owin]

ok, Brock ain't even one of my top 100 fighters, lets move on to GSP/Alves

So who is impressed with Alves core strength and stand up ability. Usually when GSP gets on top of you, he is a blanket that you cannot get off. How weird was it to see Alves repeatedly get to his feet again?

And GSP single/double legs are ridiculous. Hughes/Kos/Paryisan all had trouble getting him down even once. Those two had their stock rise in my eyes, even in defeat, Alves proved he had a champions heart. To me he looked like the fresher of the two at the end of 5 rounds but GSP also had the groin issue so I'm not sure how much of a role that played in the outcome.

Yeah. I don't know how the hell Alves got up a few of those times. GSP was just too much for him. GSP makes me a bigger fan after every fight. He's a classy guy and a great fighter. I would love to see him at middleweight too. Second best part of the whole night was Greg Jackson's "Your groin hurts? hit him with your groin" haha

 

[jklasd]

i think alves is going to be a monster IF he can get better TD defense. he was amazing to keep getting up. i thought alves was going to win because kos/hughes/karo couldn't take him down for more then 5 seconds, more so koscheck with his insane wrestling pedigee. GSP wrestling truly is amazing. i think its hard to find anyone with the wrestling skills along with the speed and explosiveness of GSP to properly train for it. but whats next for GSP? swick or kampmann? please, both guys would get smoke besides a mike quick swick flash KO. so move up? but he cant. anderson has griffin august 8th, and then hendo right after? so jan before a anderson/GSP match, and by then, fitch would have got another shot at the title. and whats next for alves? how bout a rematch with kos? id like to see it again.
stonemonkey- i disagree with your first post on this page about brock showing decent boxing and submissions defense. it was all wrestling as strength, IMHO. i dont thing his boxing was good against herring or couture, his hands are just the size of a sledgehammer. at the beginning of the second with mir, brock showed he didn't like to get hit and couldn't stop mir attack until mir went for a flying knee and got taking down. i dont think fedor would KO brock either because he would do the same shit he did with mir and just hold him down with insanely good wrestling. i do think cain velasquez would get beat down by brock. however carwin? i think he is the only one that could take brock on. dont get me wrong, fedor is easily the best HW but hes roughly the size of couture. his subs skills are better then couture but with the guy the size of brock ontop of you with his wrestling pedigree, what you gonna do? carwin has pretty good wrestling (not as good as brock but close i think? someone who knows the american wrestling systems can answer better), better standup, bigger hands (brocks are 10lbs sledgehammers, carwins are 15lbs) and if what rogen says is true, his GnP is brutal. if you can feel it outside the octogon, thats insane.

 

[vtac]

 

[stonemonkey55]

I'll never get tired of watching Hendo drop the Macho Man Randy Savage elbow/punch to Bisping

Kudos VTAC!

 

[owin]

I'll never get tired of watching Hendo drop the Macho Man Randy Savage elbow/punch to Bisping

Kudos VTAC!

lol. should have done it from top rope.

 

[Pseudonymous]

Strikeforce on Monday surprised the mixed martial arts world when it announced that it had signed a historic, multi-fight agreement that will see (Fedor Emelianenko) headline mega-evens co-promoted by the world championship promotions Strikeforce and M-1 Global.

Fedor will debut for Strikeforce this Fall when the first fight under the contract puts him on Showtime, which is also a bit of a surprise. Strikeforce CEO Scott Coker had previously commented that if his company were able to sign Fedor, it would probably necessitate and immediate move to pay-per-view. All of Fedors previous fights in the U.S. have been on pay-per-view.

"I am looking forward to going back to work and fighting at the highest level," said the 33-year-old Emelianenko in a statement issued by Strikeforce. "Strikeforce is a top fight promotion that houses some of the greatest fighters in the world. I am prepared to fight any of them."

"We are extremely excited to have the opportunity to work with M-1 Global and Fedor," added Strikeforce Founder and CEO Scott Coker, a martial arts fight promoter of over 25 years. "Fedor has been the reigning king of MMA's heavyweight division for quite some time now so being able to work with M-1 and Fedor will substantially increase the level of competition amongst the athletes in this weight class."

Fedor recently became the most sought after free agent in MMA when Affliction, who held the fighters U.S. promotional rights in a partnership with M-1 Global, closed up its promotional shop and announced it would again begin working with the UFC as a sponsor.

While most everyone in the mixed martial arts world had been focused on talks between Fedor and the Ultimate Fighting Championship, as the days passed, it became more and more evident that the chasm between Fedors management team at M-1 Global and UFC was too wide to bridge.

It appears that most demands were negotiable and much progress had been made relative to when the two sides first met two years ago, but there was one sticking point that neither side appeared willing to budge on, that being co-promotion.

We didnt hold back on anything... we gave everything, UFC President Dana White said on Friday about the negotiations with M-1 Global. There is no compromise on the co-promotion."

I am not a person who came into the business two years ago and started working it because I saw that was good business. I started in MMA in 1997. I invested a lot of money and a lot of effort and energy into the development of that sport, said M-1 Global President and Fedor manager Vadim Finkelchtein.

Today weve got enough energy and finance to be able to develop that sport. Thats why I cannot understand the policy of the UFC. The UFC wont be able to control the whole world. Lets work together.

White was just as steadfast in defending his position for the UFC to not co-promote events, Why the hell would I let anybody come in and co-promote with us? This thing that we built... the Fertittas risked all of their money, all the things that weve done and busted our ass over the 10 years that weve been in this business, and these guys (are) gonna walk in and say, yeah, were gonna be in business with you guys.

Its like Brett Favre negotiating with one of the football teams and saying, yeah, Im gonna be your 50-percent partner. Its like, what?

In the end, it was enough to keep the two sides apart and provide an opportunity for Strikeforce, who partners with Showtime and has options to air on CBS, to swoop in and seal the deal with the worlds No. 1 ranked heavyweight fighter.

"With the addition of Fedor and Strikeforces new relationship with M-1 Global, Showtime is now the home of the best pound-for-pound male and female fighters in the world," said Ken Hershman, Senior Vice President and General Manager of Showtime Sports.

"We are better positioned now than ever before to deliver on our promise to televise the top fighters in mixed martial arts today."

source: http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=9277

 

[jklasd]

fuck fedor. strikeforce has no one. this doesn't solved is fedor truly the best HW fighter.

 

[Pseudonymous]

Alistair Overeem is a top fighter, unquestionably. They also have Fabricio Werdum. To say they have nobody is to perpetuate ignorance.

 

[jklasd]

please dont say im ignorant. werdum was cut loose by the ufc. with a bad lose to junior dos santos. overeem hasn't fought in months, and still isn't ready too. and his last 4 fights? gary goodridge, mirko, lee tae-hyun, paul buentello. wow. so bad ass. like goodridge? amazing win. , lost to mirko, beat a guy with 2 mma bouts at the time and buentello. like seriously? the ufc can have easily 5-6 guys who could face fedor. not just those guys.

 

[Pseudonymous]

The UFC has the best competition, but I really do think that Strikeforce has the most interesting fight and that is against Overeem.

You should not dismiss Werdum. Werdum is great and just lost a fight to someone. It happens. You don't have a legitimate case to overlook him.

You also seem to be forgetting that Overeem beat Badr Hari, a top two K-1 fighter, and he beat him at his own game in K-1.

Overeem is the real deal and I think he has the best chance to beat Fedor.

 

[jklasd]

overeem beat a k-1 fighter? wow. thats amazing. can you tell im being sarcastic. all that proves is that hes good at striking. this is mma. not k-1. remember that. theres alot more in mma then k-1. if anderson silva fights roy jones in boxing, and roy jones wins, im not gonna go LOOK OUT FOR JONES, HES COMING FOR THE MW TITLE IN THE UFC! a win in k-1 is just that. a win in k-1. nothing more, nothing less. its not mma. werdum record is not filled with amazing guys. he beat gonzaga. twice. after that, theres nothing that really puts him near fedor. his next opponent is mike kyle. check his record to see the amazing people he has beaten.
both of these guys are good fighters, but not near what coiuld be fedor.

 

[Pseudonymous]

Tell me who is in the UFC that is so spectacular.

Your views on K-1 are just wrong. I can't accept them. Overeem's a monster and right now I'd put him as the no. 2 heavyweight in the world to look out for.

 

[jklasd]

are is it wrong to call k-1 not mma? its not. its kickboxing. sorry. thats just fact. i cant be wrong when its not mma sir. your gonna have to accept that k-1 is not mma, because its not.
id love to see randy face off with fedor. both about the same size, both very experience, and that loss to brock did not show anything bad against randy. he did the best with brock then anyone else. yes his very old, but in seriousness, he beat down tim(not that good), gabe(decent, good power, good subs) and showed nothing wrong in his lose to brock.
id love to see fedor fight brock. this one is not so much for fedor to lose. i reallllllly want brock to lose. and i think fedor will do it. all brock has is wrestling and size.
id love to see fedor fight carwin. hes untested, beside gabe, but IF he beats cain, thats a big win for him. he will get brock next.
id love to see fedor fight cain velasquez. thats just a good match. this guy took 3 hard shots from kongo at the beginning of every round, got rocks, and 1 second later, took down kongo. thats a chin. nothing wrong with getting rocked by kongo. also inexperience, but that kongo win is a good win for him. beating carwin is even better.
and finally, if he can get back to it, mirko. id love to see that rematch. i think any mma fan would.
now before you go and beat down the guys like i did to you, remember, i already sad randy is old, so dont use that, i said brock has wrestling and size, i said carwin is inexperience, i said velazquez is inexperience, and i said mirko has to get back to his old self.
also remember, i said they are good. just not on their level.