The Magic-Flight Box

OF

OF

Well-Known Member
vandalizedbythelotus said:
@OF but they did change the terms of warranty already, and all i was saying was they could add something like "use at your own risk" "because were afraid of mod power buying our 510 adapter voids your warranty if you burn your screen" "only certified for use with THIS mod" etc ... i'm sure there are ways they could protect themselves against abuse and still make the adapter.
Click to expand...
Understood. They can change it 'going forward' (to those new sales) but not to existing boxes (which were sold under different rules, without that restriction). This, of course, gets dicey with the units in stock at authorized dealers (who will no doubt want to include their stock, sales being their goal as it should be) making things like serial numbers useless as identifiers?

And let's remember this history here, we (collectively) turn out to be a dishonest lot, 'gaming' this idea many times in the past (forcing them to make the changes in policy even forcing them to add serial numbers in the first place. That was no doubt a bitter experience for them, a bad way to be 'paid back' for a very open and customer oriented policy they originally had. Like Sears selling Craftsman tools with 'unlimited lifetime warranty'? Sears, too, had to cut back on that (like for power tools) as it was abused a lot. And Sears, of course, is no longer with us now for a host of other reasons. And we should be a bit upset by that since we ultimately pay that cost with higher prices for our beloved boxes. The way such things work in our Capitalist system? They had to cut back on their original policy because they found too many folks ripping them off (to be blunt), a risk they no doubt would rather avoid?

As I see it they put a lot of work into carefully controlling the heat, they fiddled the screen size, material and wire gauge to do so against the selected AA cell and made the PA range to support that. The could have made the PA more powerful if they wanted already (and sold a lot of PAs to guys chasing bigger clouds) but did not. While I understand the desire of current owners, or at least think I can, I can also understand their not wanting to support that effort.

I, therefore, think the best route is the one Flashvape and others followed. Make your own unit and drive it as you wish and take your plunge into the market......provided you have market research to support it (IMO not likely) or can do so 'on your own money. FWIW I seriously doubt Venture Capital guys would share that risk. And again, should that happen I'd most likely buy one to try out anyway. I just don't see MF supporting the idea, which it seems is how it turned out?

Regards to all.

OF
 
vandalizedbythelotus

vandalizedbythelotus

Well-Known Member
OF said:
Understood. They can change it 'going forward' (to those new sales) but not to existing boxes (which were sold under different rules, without that restriction). This, of course, gets dicey with the units in stock at authorized dealers (who will no doubt want to include their stock, sales being their goal as it should be) making things like serial numbers useless as identifiers?

And let's remember this history here, we (collectively) turn out to be a dishonest lot, 'gaming' this idea many times in the past (forcing them to make the changes in policy even forcing them to add serial numbers in the first place. That was no doubt a bitter experience for them, a bad way to be 'paid back' for a very open and customer oriented policy they originally had. Like Sears selling Craftsman tools with 'unlimited lifetime warranty'? Sears, too, had to cut back on that (like for power tools) as it was abused a lot. And Sears, of course, is no longer with us now for a host of other reasons. And we should be a bit upset by that since we ultimately pay that cost with higher prices for our beloved boxes. The way such things work in our Capitalist system? They had to cut back on their original policy because they found too many folks ripping them off (to be blunt), a risk they no doubt would rather avoid?

As I see it they put a lot of work into carefully controlling the heat, they fiddled the screen size, material and wire gauge to do so against the selected AA cell and made the PA range to support that. The could have made the PA more powerful if they wanted already (and sold a lot of PAs to guys chasing bigger clouds) but did not. While I understand the desire of current owners, or at least think I can, I can also understand their not wanting to support that effort.

I, therefore, think the best route is the one Flashvape and others followed. Make your own unit and drive it as you wish and take your plunge into the market......provided you have market research to support it (IMO not likely) or can do so 'on your own money. FWIW I seriously doubt Venture Capital guys would share that risk. And again, should that happen I'd most likely buy one to try out anyway. I just don't see MF supporting the idea, which it seems is how it turned out?

Regards to all.

OF
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what's the perceived danger here? overheating so much that you burn/disintegrate the screen?
1st of all that's not as easy to achieve as you think even with a very powerful mod, and the user would have to ignore burning plant material and visible glowing before the fatal fault occurred.
it's a user error which could be easily diagnosed by a CS team and covered by addendum to the warranty, even for prior sales (since they have already done a couple of modifications to the original terms, there's precedent).

the PA IS more powerful than AA cells. they only built the box around that format because it was the best option at the time (current AA cells are not as strong as the ones it was designed for btw), meanwhile battery tech has improved and the same heater could be upgraded considerably ... Temp Control, consistency, much easier draw technique, better autonomy... with just the 510 adapter.

look at dynavap and induction heaters if you want an analogy of what upgraded heating power/control/convenience can do for your vape and how it can help drive sales.
IMHO the risk is much smaller than you make it out to be and the reward is worth it.

also want to note this wouldn't kill AA's since that small form factor will always have value and can't be beat. might kill the PA tho but if it does then it deserves to die and they are better off without it.
 
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vandalizedbythelotus,
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OF

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vandalizedbythelotus said:
what's the perceived danger here? overheating so much that you burn/disintegrate the screen?

it's a user error which could be easily diagnosed by a CS team and covered by addendum to the warranty, even for prior sales (since they have already done a couple of modifications to the original terms, there's precedent).
Click to expand...
I think it could adversely effect things in many ways. Not only out and out screen failure (let's remember the 'sun coming up in the box photo) but baking the box material and contamination under the screen even more? My guess is it would attack the spot welds on the screen as well, with each failed one making the rest take a bigger load. IMO a risk just not worth taking, and apparently the MF folks agree (or they'd jump on the idea to increase sales?

And, once again, it's not legal to modify the terms of the contract after the fact. That's the way the law works. Chevy can't sell you a car with a 'five year/50,000 mile warranty' then send you a letter a couple years later saying '(lots of transmissions have been failing) we will no longer honor claims there'. Prospectively (going forward) on new sales is fine (different contract). Unilateral retroactive changes are illegal. Such changes would open them up to valid claims from owners with no problems along the lines of 'you lessened the value of my unit'. It's a legal contract, quid pro quo and all that. You paid them, they have to honor the original deal.

Prospective changes to the warranty don't effect prior sales.

And if you think you can easily get out by 'finding' abuse you've never worked in CS? Folks looking for a new unit will lie, go figure....... As a practical matter you end up giving up (easier, lower cost, and 'protects your reputation'), been there, done that. At one place we'd 'replace or repair' units with the paint eaten off the front panel with obvious salt water damage inside when the owner would claim 'no, the sun through the cabin window must have destroyed the lame paint you used'. "The customer is always right", remember? Even it 'abuse is excluded' is there (and it's not) it can be basically impossible to prove even if obvious.

Let's also remember this all started at 'I can't understand why MF won't immediately take my suggestions'. They didn't and I can see some reasons why. My opinion based on some similar experiences. Your opinion seems to differ. I can see risks they might not be eager to take, and didn't.

Regards,

OF
 
scy123

scy123

Trusted Member Don't Worry
OF said:
Understood. They can change it 'going forward' (to those new sales) but not to existing boxes (which were sold under different rules, without that restriction). This, of course, gets dicey with the units in stock at authorized dealers (who will no doubt want to include their stock, sales being their goal as it should be) making things like serial numbers useless as identifiers?
Click to expand...

The new warranty affects all boxes regardless of it being bought under the old rules. Probably no one brought it up here, but their was a lot of talk about it over on reddit.

Regarding running boxes over what it was designed to. I only did it for a picture. (That box was a salvaged mflb with torn screen and the warranty was already gone. I put a custom maud dib screen on it and running it that high did zero damage and I could replace the screen for like 25 cent even if it did get damaged) if you did that during operation your herb would instantly flare up. No one is gonna run the mflb at higher than what is used for vaping, it will just burn the weed. The mflb can already combust weed if you use the PA at too high a setting. No one runs the PA at max setting cause it will combust the herb, just like no ones gonna run the mflb with 510 that high.

You are acting like people are gonna use this like a pipe to "smoke" weed with it now.

I can see why mflb would not want to make a 510 adaptor though, they might not be familiar with it and it's probably not their thing.
 
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vandalizedbythelotus

vandalizedbythelotus

Well-Known Member
OF said:
I think it could adversely effect things in many ways. Not only out and out screen failure (let's remember the 'sun coming up in the box photo) but baking the box material and contamination under the screen even more? My guess is it would attack the spot welds on the screen as well, with each failed one making the rest take a bigger load. IMO a risk just not worth taking, and apparently the MF folks agree (or they'd jump on the idea to increase sales?

And, once again, it's not legal to modify the terms of the contract after the fact. That's the way the law works. Chevy can't sell you a car with a 'five year/50,000 mile warranty' then send you a letter a couple years later saying '(lots of transmissions have been failing) we will no longer honor claims there'. Prospectively (going forward) on new sales is fine (different contract). Unilateral retroactive changes are illegal. Such changes would open them up to valid claims from owners with no problems along the lines of 'you lessened the value of my unit'. It's a legal contract, quid pro quo and all that. You paid them, they have to honor the original deal.

Prospective changes to the warranty don't effect prior sales.

And if you think you can easily get out by 'finding' abuse you've never worked in CS? Folks looking for a new unit will lie, go figure....... As a practical matter you end up giving up (easier, lower cost, and 'protects your reputation'), been there, done that. At one place we'd 'replace or repair' units with the paint eaten off the front panel with obvious salt water damage inside when the owner would claim 'no, the sun through the cabin window must have destroyed the lame paint you used'. "The customer is always right", remember? Even it 'abuse is excluded' is there (and it's not) it can be basically impossible to prove even if obvious.

Let's also remember this all started at 'I can't understand why MF won't immediately take my suggestions'. They didn't and I can see some reasons why. My opinion based on some similar experiences. Your opinion seems to differ. I can see risks they might not be eager to take, and didn't.

Regards,

OF
Click to expand...
can you list the "many" ways in which too much power can damage the box? it's 2 metal rods and a mesh ...
only thing i can think of is screen melting but that requires 1st burning your herb and ignoring the billowing smoke and glowing hot mesh, it couldn't happen instantly. an extremely unlikely scenario since nobody aims to do that on purpose.

the welding can't fail before the middle of the mesh is melted since that's where the maximum heat is generated and the material is weakest. screen tearing due to mechanical abuse would still be the no.1 fail, unrelated to power supply.

contaminants? you mean smoke from accidentally combusting? you can already combust your herb with the PA and even a regular AA if you have one of the early models. in reality the added power actually allows you to better clean the box of reclaim.

i'll give you the warranty part is a touchy legal subject but like i said i'm sure there are ways they can protect themselves against abuse. even if they don't change it, the 1 only replacement policy still stands (the cost of which is included in the initial purchase remember?). but the box would be so much better.

obviously nothing is risk free but all those reasons to not do it seem to be based in misinformation. not good enough.
 
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scy123

scy123

Trusted Member Don't Worry
Really, anything that would damage the box would be painfully obvious you are doing something wrong and now with warranty being only 1 replacement, you are basically paying for 2 boxes, it's on you if you mishandle it.

Anything that would damage the box would be obvious for a warranty claim too, if your box is burned and screen is melted with welds falling apart they can just refuse warranty.
 
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
vandalizedbythelotus said:
can you list the "many" ways in which too much power can damage the box? it's 2 metal rods and a mesh ...
only thing i can think of is screen melting but that requires 1st burning your herb and ignoring the billowing smoke and glowing hot mesh, it couldn't happen instantly. an extremely unlikely scenario since nobody aims to do that on purpose.

the welding can't fail before the middle of the mesh is melted since that's where the maximum heat is generated and the material is weakest. screen tearing due to mechanical abuse would still be the no.1 fail, unrelated to power supply.

contaminants? you mean smoke from accidentally combusting? you can already combust your herb with the PA and even a regular AA if you have one of the early models. in reality the added power actually allows you to better clean the box of reclaim.

i'll give you the warranty part is a touchy legal subject but like i said i'm sure there are ways they can protect themselves against abuse. even if they don't change it, the 1 only replacement policy still stands (the cost of which is included in the initial purchase remember?). but the box would be so much better.

obviously nothing is risk free but all those reasons to not do it seem to be based in misinformation. not good enough.
Click to expand...

Look, I think you're being argumentative here. Not addressing the points I make that counter what you opine but rather looking for some new place to attack. Not really useful or interesting IMO.

The original point was 'I don't understand why they wouldn't jump on my idea'' right? But they did pass on it. And I have expressed my opinions as to why that might be. Instead you come back with unrealistic ideas of changing the warranty that 'don't hold water'. Not in keeping with existing contract law.

Changing my mind, as unlikely as that might be, won't change theirs.

The bottom line is they don't want to back your ideas for whatever reason, arguing with me won't change that. Suggestions about warranty changes that don't pass muster likewise.

I think, at this point, we've got a long way from the MFLB as sold (the topic of the thread) and should probably drop it?

OF
 
vandalizedbythelotus

vandalizedbythelotus

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@OF dude forget the warranty thing. i realized they don't have to change anything since the 1 only replacement (cost of which is included in the initial purchase) is already protection enough against wildlings willfully setting their boxes on fire.

i'm just explaining to you why your suppositions about their reasoning for not moving forwards on this (not my idea but i fully endorse it) might be wrong.

honestly i'm more inclined to believe as scy123 pointed out they are unfamiliar with the tech and possibly have some of the same biased misconceptions you display here. which is why i'm trying to show you/them(linked this thread in my email to them) those fears related to 510 mods power supply are not justified.
IMHO the benefits of TC, consistency, autonomy far outweigh the potential risk of overpowering the device. that issue can already manifest from improper technique, technique which could be simplified/removed by TC...
 
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OF

OF

Well-Known Member
vandalizedbythelotus said:
@OF dude forget the warranty thing. i realized they don't have to change anything since the 1 only replacement (cost of which is included in the initial purchase) is already protection enough against wildlings willfully setting their boxes on fire.

i'm just explaining to you why your suppositions about their reasoning for not moving forwards on this (not my idea but i fully endorse it) might be wrong.

honestly i'm more inclined to believe as scy123 pointed out they are unfamiliar with the tech and possibly have some of the same biased misconceptions you display here. which is why i'm trying to show you/them(linked this thread in my email to them) those fears related to 510 mods power supply are not justified.
IMHO the benefits of TC, consistency, autonomy far outweigh the potential risk of overpowering the device. that issue can already manifest from improper technique, technique which could be simplified/removed by TC...
Click to expand...
If you really think the current warranty means you get two, what do you think would happen if you ask for them both 'up front'? That might be how you think it works out, but it's what's agreed to, you paid for one. And it doesn't cover the cases of earlier purchases which had no such restrictions. My OG and the custom Walnut (before it was a stock offering) both are in this group. They have no S/Ns, either. In theory the warranty is the same today as it was when I bought them, back before all the customers tried to game it.

Sure, I might be wrong in my guess at what's behind their actions. As I said several times it's my opinion. I see what I consider valid reasons against the 'I don't understand why they don't jump on this' argument. The fact remains they did give it a pass and it is their call to make. What we say here is not likely to change that.

I think you and others might be selling their Engineering expertise short. They have real Engineers on tap and have published some mighty impressive background on the development. And their PAs are truly impressive to those of us who understand such things. They are wise. For sure if there was any doubt Management would have turned to Engineering and asked 'what about this?', Sales would insist on it. The suits (Sales) hold an important place at the table, IMO often too important.

I agree, properly configured mods would be a better way to go, better than the battery solution, sort of a 'cordless PA with more potential'? But that means they lose control of things as some folks wouldn't be able to resist the urge to dial it up. After all, they 'read it on the web'?

Regards to all.

OF
 
lisifi

lisifi

Well-Known Member
so we're all clear on the 510mod it seems :)

but what about the "modern battery mod"? I really like that one ... i can't see harm there? no/yes?
TommyDee said:
OEM Intent Solution -

20191024_161255.jpg
20191024_155301.jpg
Click to expand...
 
lisifi,
TommyDee

TommyDee

Vaporitor
@lisifi - thank you for the question. I have looked at it and worked with the cell options for a bit. There is likely a liability issue that needs to be dealt with in design. As it is, it will melt keys in your pocket and a small tag that says 'don't put this in your pocket with keys' is basically useless. So the design has to be inherently safe. That simply means it needs a fuse and no way for both ends of the cell to short. MF is cleaver and I know they could house this correctly and then there may be an ROI problem and I accept that. It would be a real engineering process that would hopefully end in having replaceable cells for the widget; say a 'Pill-bottle on a cord'.
 
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TommyDee,
vandalizedbythelotus

vandalizedbythelotus

Well-Known Member
OF said:
If you really think the current warranty means you get two, what do you think would happen if you ask for them both 'up front'? That might be how you think it works out, but it's what's agreed to, you paid for one. And it doesn't cover the cases of earlier purchases which had no such restrictions. My OG and the custom Walnut (before it was a stock offering) both are in this group. They have no S/Ns, either. In theory the warranty is the same today as it was when I bought them, back before all the customers tried to game it.

Sure, I might be wrong in my guess at what's behind their actions. As I said several times it's my opinion. I see what I consider valid reasons against the 'I don't understand why they don't jump on this' argument. The fact remains they did give it a pass and it is their call to make. What we say here is not likely to change that.

I think you and others might be selling their Engineering expertise short. They have real Engineers on tap and have published some mighty impressive background on the development. And their PAs are truly impressive to those of us who understand such things. They are wise. For sure if there was any doubt Management would have turned to Engineering and asked 'what about this?', Sales would insist on it. The suits (Sales) hold an important place at the table, IMO often too important.

I agree, properly configured mods would be a better way to go, better than the battery solution, sort of a 'cordless PA with more potential'? But that means they lose control of things as some folks wouldn't be able to resist the urge to dial it up. After all, they 'read it on the web'?

Regards to all.

OF
Click to expand...
i said the cost of the 1 potential replacement is included in the initial purchase ... not that you get an automatic twofer. OG, pre-S/N box sales are an insignificant minority, and regardless of your purchase date, unless they decide it's cheaper to make an exception for you, current warranty replacement limit of 1 still applies.

wasn't dissing the PA, or the AA solution (like i said the small form factor is unbeatable). i'm a big fan of their design and engineering, part of why i want them to make the adapter. but good, reliable TC, 510 mods are a recent wildcard and all the research was done prior. i sincerely doubt the engineer tap is still running over there considering nothing has changed on that front in years. so yeah it could be like a better, much cheaper, more versatile and portable PA level+ PS. what's wrong with that?

so ... in the end ... even if say the wildling disregards sensory feedback (of burning herbs and glowing screen) and perseveres to make a mess of his box with the evil 510 Darth-Sidious-burn-the-whole-universe-to-a-crisp-in-under-a-millisecond-UNLIMITED-POWER! mod, and makes use of his 1(one) no questions asked replacement box, has the situation really changed as far as potential cost penalty for MF?
 
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vandalizedbythelotus,
scy123

scy123

Trusted Member Don't Worry
OF said:
And their PAs are truly impressive to those of us who understand such things.
Click to expand...
The PA is just a basic buck converter that converts 12v to 1ish volts though.

The real marvel I would say goes to the dudes (Evol LLC) who invented sensorless temp control using tcr changes. This is now used in about 95% of vapes and changed the game big time.
 
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scy123 said:
The PA is just a basic buck converter that converts 12v to 1ish volts though.

The real marvel I would say goes to the dudes (Evol LLC) who invented sensorless temp control using tcr changes. This is now used in about 95% of vapes and changed the game big time.
Click to expand...

Are you sure? I'm thinking it's past 'basic' in that the cable is too small to carry 15 Amps? I've never poked around but my guess is the power goes up and is stepped down perhaps by a transformer (?) in the head? Or even the pass element, rectifer and inductor there with the control in the other box? Just guessing out loud. But I don't see it as simple to do. I tried do find 'distributed' switching regulators, someone (Toshiba?) makes fairly small 15 Amp units that I managed to frig down but they were still too big to fit in the AA format in the end. Fit fine in the 18650 based adapters I made for Cera though.

OTOH, TCR has long been used for similar tasks. For instance temperature rise in transformers. You run them hard into a dummy load then quickly read the now higher resistance. Motor temperature rises are measured this way, too. Some high power heaters rely on this for overtemp protection should the air flow drop off. But adapting the technique for vape use is a great step forward for sure even if not an invention is the proper sense. I suggest and Academy Award......

Fun stuff.

OF
 
OF,
scy123

scy123

Trusted Member Don't Worry
The only thing in the AA head is the button switch.

Code: 
https://imgur.com/r/mflb/IoAJ9dA
 
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OF

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scy123 said:
The only thing in the AA head is the button switch.

Code: 
https://imgur.com/r/mflb/IoAJ9dA
Click to expand...
Interesting. How do they get 15 Amps up those skinny wires? Let them heat and ignore the loss?

Thanks for the info.

OF
 
OF,
scy123

scy123

Trusted Member Don't Worry
No idea, I did hear reports of PA's melting though. The amps on max setting of PA would over over 20a too.
 
scy123,
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OF

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scy123 said:
No idea, I did hear reports of PA's melting though. The amps on max setting of PA would over over 20a too.
Click to expand...

The logical next step is to hire a bunch of termites to knaw away the wood cover on the PA to see what's inside.

Your PA, of course.

OF
 
OF,
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