The Grasshopper
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OF
Well-Known Member
Actually I think the real reason 'nobody takes them to task' on this is because it's the Industry Standard way of doing it. Notice the testing at the bottom, different from the 'continuous discharge' data above it:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E92.pdf
This technique takes 'recovery' into account, and is generally the way such things are rated. Amazon, I think, simply changed that statement to address the expected question, 'how long between charges?'.
IMO nothing underhanded at all.
OF
fft
Well-Known Member
So I took the advice from @420time, and @blankexpression , contacted Trevor myself with a few of the recent questions, and got a very thoughtful response back. Here's the exchange:
Trevor,
I am a Grasshopper supporter (1 "everything" and 1 standard) and had a few questions regarding your 12/15 update. I recognize that you guys have been working extremely hard on this and appreciate the effort and attention to detail you are putting in to get all this right. Here are my questions:
1) Easy question first. In the photos you posted last night it looked like there is a color difference between the clip and the rest of the back end. Do the photos reflect what you think the shipped version will look like or do you think the final color will be a little more consistent?
2) With the back end looking good (actually it looks great / solid) the obvious question is what's the status of the front end components, especially the heat exchanger and other more critical parts up on that end. You mentioned performing "extensive testing" after the weekend's PCB fiasco, does that mean testing the whole pen presumably using prototype front end parts? (I hope so... you guys are entitled to some downtime) Given there has been less discussion in your updates around the front end, how much complexity is there in the front end components that could potentially be an issue. Recognize its impossible to anticipate all of the ways suppliers can screw up, but any color you have around this would be helpful.
I am a member of the Fuck Combustion forum where we've been talking about the update and would like to post your responses if thats okay. Let me just add that while there are a lot of haters out there, I do appreciate the complexity of what you guys are trying to pull off and am looking forward to seeing you all succeed - both delivering on the Indiegogo campaign and in doing great things beyond that. Good luck on what seems to be the home stretch in getting the first hoppers shipped and hope you all have great holidays too.
------------------------------
Thanks for contacting me. I try and get to every email so sometimes it takes a bit. First, thanks for the support and kind words of recognition in regards to our efforts. It is truly appreciated. I used your numbering below to address your questions.
1. There currently is a color difference between the clip and the body. This is because we had to use a special alloy, the same one used for the snap ring, ( 17-4 Stainless ) to give the clip adequate strength. At first we attempted a heat treatment, but because of the clip's thin profile there were some issues with deformation. When having to design the new tooling for the clip, we decided to go the safest route possible and use 17-4 Stainless.
Check out this link for some basic info on the alloy. http://www.specialtysteelsupply.com/17-4ph-stainless-steel.php. The main property we are interested in is the very high yield strength.
We have considered a number of options regarding the color difference, but for now it will have to stay. Once the main Body is in, we will post images so you can see what the difference really looks like.
2. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video of the back end! We are really happy with how it came out mechanically. Extensive testing referred to a few things, but not the full Hopper, as we are waiting on the Body and Front-ends to come in.
First, we tested the mechanical operation of the button. The button has a design very similar to that of a real "click" pen, which extended and retracts the tip. In our case it moves a pin, which completes a circuit in one position and not in the other. Until last week we had only tested all the production parts of this separately, but not together. Once combined, we put it through the paces and checked that it was indeed working correctly. This went extremely well and there were no issues. It's really hard to convey how good this feels after so much time spent in front of a CAD model designing, checking and rechecking the design, clearances and tolerances.
The second part of testing involved the PCBs/electronics. One PCB is housed inside the rear assembly. It controls the on/off operation, temperature-dial-setting, and charging. The other is in front of the battery and it controls the chamber/heater temperature and the LEDs. The first step was to get these PCBs working outside the device, and like we talked about in the update, there were a few problems. Once that was done we assembled the Back-end with the PCB included and connected it to the Front-end PCB to fully test all the functionality. This also went really well and everything including the temp-dial-setting and charging worked as intended.
If you are wondering about actually vapeing during testing we do actually do this too. The difference being that we don't use the old incompatible prototypes, but have a system to adapt from the heater to a "chamber" that is affixed to the glass apparatus we showed a few updates ago. Although I don't think many people were impressed by this device, it actually is very important to be able to objectivly control the draw, so the results can be measured. A vacuum pump, and value allow us to precisely control the flow of air. As you can imagine, just taking a rip does not really give you great data.
Front-end
The Front-end is much more mechanically simple, but also a bit more challenging for the manufactures. The biggest issue with the Front-end is heat management. An all metal device that is designed to vape is a hard thing to do. Notice how almost every other vape is plastic where it contacts your lips? This is because plastic can be a lot hotter before it feels hot/burns you. Metal is a much better conductor of heat making it hard to work with. The prototypes we had at the very start had a good way to solve this problem, but it was very hard to do during mass production. In retrospect it is easy to see this was a big error, and caused a lot of delay.
We worked like crazy to get this right, and came to a design that required some complex manufacturing that was pretty costly. Because of this we had to get it right the first time. We went through an exhaustive list of iterations before submitting the design, as we needed to be sure that it was right. These have been promised to be completed before the 20th and we are very excited.
I apologize for the not so concise email I just got a bit into explaining it and figured since you asked you would appreciate it. I know the delays have been hard to stomach, so thanks for staying interested. We really are trying to get this to you as fast as possible, without compromise turning it into a piece of garbage. Feel free to relay the info, please forgive the typos, there is much still to do!
Thanks again for the support and happy holidays,
Trevor
Trevor,
I am a Grasshopper supporter (1 "everything" and 1 standard) and had a few questions regarding your 12/15 update. I recognize that you guys have been working extremely hard on this and appreciate the effort and attention to detail you are putting in to get all this right. Here are my questions:
1) Easy question first. In the photos you posted last night it looked like there is a color difference between the clip and the rest of the back end. Do the photos reflect what you think the shipped version will look like or do you think the final color will be a little more consistent?
2) With the back end looking good (actually it looks great / solid) the obvious question is what's the status of the front end components, especially the heat exchanger and other more critical parts up on that end. You mentioned performing "extensive testing" after the weekend's PCB fiasco, does that mean testing the whole pen presumably using prototype front end parts? (I hope so... you guys are entitled to some downtime) Given there has been less discussion in your updates around the front end, how much complexity is there in the front end components that could potentially be an issue. Recognize its impossible to anticipate all of the ways suppliers can screw up, but any color you have around this would be helpful.
I am a member of the Fuck Combustion forum where we've been talking about the update and would like to post your responses if thats okay. Let me just add that while there are a lot of haters out there, I do appreciate the complexity of what you guys are trying to pull off and am looking forward to seeing you all succeed - both delivering on the Indiegogo campaign and in doing great things beyond that. Good luck on what seems to be the home stretch in getting the first hoppers shipped and hope you all have great holidays too.
------------------------------
Thanks for contacting me. I try and get to every email so sometimes it takes a bit. First, thanks for the support and kind words of recognition in regards to our efforts. It is truly appreciated. I used your numbering below to address your questions.
1. There currently is a color difference between the clip and the body. This is because we had to use a special alloy, the same one used for the snap ring, ( 17-4 Stainless ) to give the clip adequate strength. At first we attempted a heat treatment, but because of the clip's thin profile there were some issues with deformation. When having to design the new tooling for the clip, we decided to go the safest route possible and use 17-4 Stainless.
Check out this link for some basic info on the alloy. http://www.specialtysteelsupply.com/17-4ph-stainless-steel.php. The main property we are interested in is the very high yield strength.
We have considered a number of options regarding the color difference, but for now it will have to stay. Once the main Body is in, we will post images so you can see what the difference really looks like.
2. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video of the back end! We are really happy with how it came out mechanically. Extensive testing referred to a few things, but not the full Hopper, as we are waiting on the Body and Front-ends to come in.
First, we tested the mechanical operation of the button. The button has a design very similar to that of a real "click" pen, which extended and retracts the tip. In our case it moves a pin, which completes a circuit in one position and not in the other. Until last week we had only tested all the production parts of this separately, but not together. Once combined, we put it through the paces and checked that it was indeed working correctly. This went extremely well and there were no issues. It's really hard to convey how good this feels after so much time spent in front of a CAD model designing, checking and rechecking the design, clearances and tolerances.
The second part of testing involved the PCBs/electronics. One PCB is housed inside the rear assembly. It controls the on/off operation, temperature-dial-setting, and charging. The other is in front of the battery and it controls the chamber/heater temperature and the LEDs. The first step was to get these PCBs working outside the device, and like we talked about in the update, there were a few problems. Once that was done we assembled the Back-end with the PCB included and connected it to the Front-end PCB to fully test all the functionality. This also went really well and everything including the temp-dial-setting and charging worked as intended.
If you are wondering about actually vapeing during testing we do actually do this too. The difference being that we don't use the old incompatible prototypes, but have a system to adapt from the heater to a "chamber" that is affixed to the glass apparatus we showed a few updates ago. Although I don't think many people were impressed by this device, it actually is very important to be able to objectivly control the draw, so the results can be measured. A vacuum pump, and value allow us to precisely control the flow of air. As you can imagine, just taking a rip does not really give you great data.
Front-end
The Front-end is much more mechanically simple, but also a bit more challenging for the manufactures. The biggest issue with the Front-end is heat management. An all metal device that is designed to vape is a hard thing to do. Notice how almost every other vape is plastic where it contacts your lips? This is because plastic can be a lot hotter before it feels hot/burns you. Metal is a much better conductor of heat making it hard to work with. The prototypes we had at the very start had a good way to solve this problem, but it was very hard to do during mass production. In retrospect it is easy to see this was a big error, and caused a lot of delay.
We worked like crazy to get this right, and came to a design that required some complex manufacturing that was pretty costly. Because of this we had to get it right the first time. We went through an exhaustive list of iterations before submitting the design, as we needed to be sure that it was right. These have been promised to be completed before the 20th and we are very excited.
I apologize for the not so concise email I just got a bit into explaining it and figured since you asked you would appreciate it. I know the delays have been hard to stomach, so thanks for staying interested. We really are trying to get this to you as fast as possible, without compromise turning it into a piece of garbage. Feel free to relay the info, please forgive the typos, there is much still to do!
Thanks again for the support and happy holidays,
Trevor
Last edited:
bubbha ho-tep
SlowTokeMcgoats
pareall post: 708148 said:
Jeez your really kinda reaching there lol. it's pretty obvious that's what he ment I don't think any of what he said was untruthful. Sounds like there doing all they can do to deliver a product that won't suck balls.
If I thought it was obvious then I wouldn't have said anything. I don't think the statement that followed was meant to explain his incorrect assertion, it just happened to come next.
cow-a-bunga
Well-Known Member
Trevor is right, there is a difference between temperature and heat.
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae680.cfm
jojo0420
Cloud Chaser
@fft Thanks for taking the initiative to get some answers to the questions we've all been asking!
For the record I am a supporter for 2 Grasshoppers (Ti and Early Bird) plus some add-ons, totaling nearly $300. Not a small sum for many, nor me. But I also don't look at as a real purchase, I knew going in there was no recourse if I wasn't satisfied with the outcome. But at that point in time I believed in the GH team enough to donate towards getting what I would consider basically my dream vape. If I receive nothing I'll chalk it up to Leason Learned, and move on.
If that money meant I couldn't pay for something important then it wouldn't have happened. We are all in different places financially, if you have to worry about where that money is going then you shouldn't be supporting crowd funding campaigns. Period.
At this point I could justify the purchase of a standard GH just for the entertainment value over the last year.
For the record I am a supporter for 2 Grasshoppers (Ti and Early Bird) plus some add-ons, totaling nearly $300. Not a small sum for many, nor me. But I also don't look at as a real purchase, I knew going in there was no recourse if I wasn't satisfied with the outcome. But at that point in time I believed in the GH team enough to donate towards getting what I would consider basically my dream vape. If I receive nothing I'll chalk it up to Leason Learned, and move on.
If that money meant I couldn't pay for something important then it wouldn't have happened. We are all in different places financially, if you have to worry about where that money is going then you shouldn't be supporting crowd funding campaigns. Period.
At this point I could justify the purchase of a standard GH just for the entertainment value over the last year.
OF
Well-Known Member
Right, both times. Tough concepts, harder for some to catch than others I think?
Briefly, temperature is a measure of how fast the atoms are moving, either bouncing around in a fluid or vibrating in place in a solid. Get too 'fast' (high temperature) and they no longer stay in place, but melt to liquid (boiling is similar). To change the temperature you need heat. Heat is the ability to change (and it can be negative) the temperature, and it flows from place to place at controlled rates based on the materials. Called 'thermal conductivity' it's how fast, say, heat moves up a rod relative to another metal. Low thermal conductors are thermal insulation, like in the walls. The inside and outside are the same temperatures as before, but the rate of heat flow is slowed down.
Also in the game is 'specific heat', that is how much energy transfer has to happen to raise that material compared to a similar weight of another (usually water). There are some big differences, some materials 'soak up the heat' better than others.
Still with me? Cool. Or rather hot..... . warm at least. To burn your lips we not only have to get the surface hot enough (temperature) to cause harm, but also have to be able to pass enough heat (energy in calories or BTUs) to raise the mass of your ruby reds enough degrees to count. Your reflexes play into that, of course.
So it follows that plastics (or ceramics, or wood.....) would be better at slowing the transfer before the 'oh, shit!' reflexes kicked in. And it would also take longer to become dangerous in the 'quick hit from cold' pattern of use. Other options exists as well, like use ceramic or other insulation to slow the transfer outward, then jacket that in a larger metal cover (which would draw away heat, lowering the temperature) perhaps? There are ways to put a cool handle on a hot pan. It's all that Thermodynamics stuff, 'ya gotta go with the flow' heat wise.
Confusing enough?
OF
OF
Well-Known Member
filteredhead
Well-Known Member
New update from the hopper folks:
Hey Everyone,
We wanted to share a few photos of the parts that arrived today. See them below:
Check back for more information and better pictures in our next update.
The Grasshopper Team
Hey Everyone,
We wanted to share a few photos of the parts that arrived today. See them below:
Check back for more information and better pictures in our next update.
The Grasshopper Team
Last edited:
Unisonruss
Well-Known Member
^^ooohhh aaahhhhhhhh... this should shut some folks up. Great update!
Shrike
Flower Potted, Maxed, & Rio'd.
Wow...starting to come together. Very nice to see most of the components over the last two updates!
And...they satisfied my fetish for BOXES!! So many Grasshoppers!!! Looks like they're getting ready to feast in Kansas...
Thanks for the un-scheduled update 'Hopper folk...
And...they satisfied my fetish for BOXES!! So many Grasshoppers!!! Looks like they're getting ready to feast in Kansas...
Thanks for the un-scheduled update 'Hopper folk...
Adobewan
Well-Known Member
I agree with all of the above, will happily eat a chunk of my words from my second to last post, and shut my skeptic within up. This looks like they're giving this a solid attempt.
Releasing the update early instills a bit extra hope, like a jump in production progress.
Good news for all of us, it's looking like the real deal.
Glad to be wrong on this one!
Releasing the update early instills a bit extra hope, like a jump in production progress.
Good news for all of us, it's looking like the real deal.
Glad to be wrong on this one!
Krazzykid
Well-Known Member
Pretty soon this thread will be full of shipping notifications followed closely by first impressions.
I can't wait to see how well it actually performs. If it works nearly as well as they made it seem like it will, then they will have numerous orders just from my close friends and family.
It will all come down to performance.
I can't wait to see how well it actually performs. If it works nearly as well as they made it seem like it will, then they will have numerous orders just from my close friends and family.
It will all come down to performance.
namasteIII
Well-Known Member
Eating some of my words hear, man they taste good. Can't wait for these to ship out and see some info on themz my solo is getting lonely...
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