The Bud Toaster - (currently: Model 14, version 3)
- Thread starter Hippie Dickie
- Start date
@Raf007 - thanks for the vibes.
i was just tonight checking the printout of the pcb layout, tried to position the Deans plug against the pcb, and damn! realized i had left off a pad on the top of the pcb. quick online chat with pcb company, they put my order on hold, i uploaded the corrected file, and it's back in production queue. whew!
it was due to ship on 4/12. i don't care if i go to the end of the production pile - this saved me almost $400. unless there is another layout error.
i was just tonight checking the printout of the pcb layout, tried to position the Deans plug against the pcb, and damn! realized i had left off a pad on the top of the pcb. quick online chat with pcb company, they put my order on hold, i uploaded the corrected file, and it's back in production queue. whew!
it was due to ship on 4/12. i don't care if i go to the end of the production pile - this saved me almost $400. unless there is another layout error.
well, it's official ... i'm out of my mind ...
Latest iteration: Model 15, Version 1
This is the bottom of the pcb:
changes: Deans plug soldered directly to the board; symmetrical placement of the two buttons; MOSFET moved to this side of the pcb - otherwise, it's the same as m14v3
Here is the top of the board:
this shows the Deans soldered directly to the pcb. took the thermometer probe out of the BBQ thermometer and soldered it to the pcb with a 4-conductor ribbon cable to connect to the BBQ body.
Another view of the top of the pcb, from the other side:
this shows the thermometer probe tucked under the vertical leg of the nichrome ribbon heater, and a better view of the ribbon connector.
so, now, the only components on the top of the pcb are the three LEDs, the k-type thermocouple, and the BBQ thermometer probe.
i also paid extra to get the silkscreen legend printed on the pcb. which makes assembly a bit easier.
now i need to change the PID parameters a bit, program the PIC12F683, and test to see if this works.
Latest iteration: Model 15, Version 1
This is the bottom of the pcb:
changes: Deans plug soldered directly to the board; symmetrical placement of the two buttons; MOSFET moved to this side of the pcb - otherwise, it's the same as m14v3
Here is the top of the board:
this shows the Deans soldered directly to the pcb. took the thermometer probe out of the BBQ thermometer and soldered it to the pcb with a 4-conductor ribbon cable to connect to the BBQ body.
Another view of the top of the pcb, from the other side:
this shows the thermometer probe tucked under the vertical leg of the nichrome ribbon heater, and a better view of the ribbon connector.
so, now, the only components on the top of the pcb are the three LEDs, the k-type thermocouple, and the BBQ thermometer probe.
i also paid extra to get the silkscreen legend printed on the pcb. which makes assembly a bit easier.
now i need to change the PID parameters a bit, program the PIC12F683, and test to see if this works.
lazylathe
Almost there...
@Hippie Dickie
Your updates and progress reports are always appreciated!!
A new board with silkscreen legend, soldering on point, minimal electronics and a pure glass air path.
Do you have a pic of all the older iterations of your Cube in the shot?
I am still so ready to be on board if/when you decide to release it!
No beta tester here, just sign me up for the package! LOL!
Excellent work as usual!!
A video would be most appreciated if this setup works well!
Your updates and progress reports are always appreciated!!
A new board with silkscreen legend, soldering on point, minimal electronics and a pure glass air path.
Do you have a pic of all the older iterations of your Cube in the shot?
I am still so ready to be on board if/when you decide to release it!
No beta tester here, just sign me up for the package! LOL!
Excellent work as usual!!
A video would be most appreciated if this setup works well!
no, the earlier iterations are stashed in boxes scattered around my work shop/office ... every time i move a box in the basement, or open a cabinet door in the house, i find a cube (or three) of old, older, oldest iterations ... and they will remain in their respective boxes - none of the earlier versions performed as well as this one - best let them be ... they appeared, they vaped, they sleep - nostalgia ain't moving the game forward.
thank-you for your support and words of encouragement!
@felon167inc - thanks for asking … i have finally finished some work and household projects that have been nagging at me for about a year - plus pop-up projects like replacing the wax gasket under the toilet in the mens room, because for sure the world stops until both commodes are back in operation - thank god for youtube and herb to get that nasty task done.
But i still haven't tested the new pcb unit … all wired up but it needs the firmware download, which means i have to fix the PID parameter table for the hotter/faster ribbon heater … i may play hooky from work tomorrow and try to push this newest Bud Toaster closer to the finish line.
i would still like to connect with a leather guru to find out how to fix some aesthetics relating to the leather case.
BUT, otherwise, i am continually amazed at how nice this all glass vaporizer performs. i only vape herb and there is no other design i have seen that is interesting to me - in 9 years.
AND, just two days ago, i discovered that my current cube has an orientation "issue" - i.e., if it is lying on its left side the temp drops 20F and if on its right side it rises 20F … nothing is floating/loose in the cube, so it's not a gravity effect - so, just yet another reality failure - i get that a lot with the stuff i try to do. i am tempted to try to figure out wtf is going on, but it's time to move on to the newer version, so, since it still works, it just is a very convenient way to up the temp deep into a session without pressing the +5F button.
so, nothing ready to sell yet. i priced having the pcb commercially stuffed and soldered (in USA) and it is about $17.72 (100 quantity) - a very acceptable price. And the pcb goes from $18 each in 20 quantity to $5 each in 100 quantity. and i need some automation/tools to be able to make 100 units.
first 10 units, then the 100 … i see a path forward. i'm only 70, so lots of time to execute the plan.
But i still haven't tested the new pcb unit … all wired up but it needs the firmware download, which means i have to fix the PID parameter table for the hotter/faster ribbon heater … i may play hooky from work tomorrow and try to push this newest Bud Toaster closer to the finish line.
i would still like to connect with a leather guru to find out how to fix some aesthetics relating to the leather case.
BUT, otherwise, i am continually amazed at how nice this all glass vaporizer performs. i only vape herb and there is no other design i have seen that is interesting to me - in 9 years.
AND, just two days ago, i discovered that my current cube has an orientation "issue" - i.e., if it is lying on its left side the temp drops 20F and if on its right side it rises 20F … nothing is floating/loose in the cube, so it's not a gravity effect - so, just yet another reality failure - i get that a lot with the stuff i try to do. i am tempted to try to figure out wtf is going on, but it's time to move on to the newer version, so, since it still works, it just is a very convenient way to up the temp deep into a session without pressing the +5F button.
so, nothing ready to sell yet. i priced having the pcb commercially stuffed and soldered (in USA) and it is about $17.72 (100 quantity) - a very acceptable price. And the pcb goes from $18 each in 20 quantity to $5 each in 100 quantity. and i need some automation/tools to be able to make 100 units.
first 10 units, then the 100 … i see a path forward. i'm only 70, so lots of time to execute the plan.
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Mr. Whitewall
Well-Known Member
I am really interested in this project as well! Very interesting concept and really like how you have developed it along the years.
Being into collectable vapes, this is right up my alley.
Please count me in!
Being into collectable vapes, this is right up my alley.
Please count me in!
virtualpurple
Well-Known Member
@Hippie Dickie you gotta know that many of us are chomping at the bit to own a piece of your blood, sweat, and tears!
I don’t know if it’s been addressed earlier but are you planning to use a waiting list, a lottery? Maybe a sweepstakes?
I’ll subscribe to a lot of magazines when the time comes.
I don’t know if it’s been addressed earlier but are you planning to use a waiting list, a lottery? Maybe a sweepstakes?
I’ll subscribe to a lot of magazines when the time comes.
first of all, thank-you for your continued interest in my vape. if i can get it ready for mass production - well, that's me and my workshop - it will just be available for purchase. no preorders or deposits - just buy it and get it.
but still quite a few steps between here and there.
and speaking of steps to take ... i took some measurements in the oven tube with the cube in different orientations - and while the cube display has this wild 20F swing, all spots of the oven tube show the same temperature - so it is a display problem, not a PID problem … plus, while doing this testing, i found the PID algorithm is much more stable than i had led myself to believe. So, trading a "PID parameter adjustment" problem for a "mount the BBQ thermometer probe" problem. and all my blather about overly aggressive D term, is just wrong (such a tidy answer for what i was seeing).
when the cube display shows the correct temperature, the BBQ thermometer probe is top-most in the cube - so heat rises??? and the low temp display is when the probe is bottom-most orientation - heat rises away from the probe. i had thought the geometry inside the cube (outside the oven tube) allowed an even and stable temperature distribution. evidently, not so.
i keep getting gob smacked by the differences between my mental imaginings and the physical world. every. damn. project. i don't think i'll ever learn, must just keep fixing the bugs.
i think to get the vap cap to click in a reasonably short time, it would take about 1000°F - far too hot for the cube, i'm afraid. plus, it shuts down if it goes > 500°F. the induction heater is a better tool.
Andreaerdna
If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
I just discovered in another thread that the herbal cube uses mainly convection but with some radiant heat into the mix (depending on how long you wait before you inhale)
This is the heating style i like the most (as in apollo where heat came from an halogen bulb)
Hope you will release it some day not too far
Also, I like the way you communicate too
This is the heating style i like the most (as in apollo where heat came from an halogen bulb)
Hope you will release it some day not too far
Also, I like the way you communicate too
Questions on the Herbal Cube/Bud Toaster:
Will it be possible to remove the glass heating tube for cleaning?
Vapolution has a similar arrangement in their desktop vape(which I own). What they have a cerramic chamber into which a glass heating tube is inserted. No air runs over the ceramic, but that means the glass heating tube can be easily removed for cleaning.
Have you considered ways to remove the herb vial other than tweazers? The Vapolution combines their equivalent of the herb via and the draw tube. The down side is that you have to pack the herb into a tube open on the bottom. The up side is you can remove the herb between draws. I'm wondering if a draw tube/via combination could be created that would let the draw but lock into the vial and be used to take it out. That might give the user some ability to adjust the extent of convection vs conduction heat being used.
Will it be possible to remove the glass heating tube for cleaning?
Vapolution has a similar arrangement in their desktop vape(which I own). What they have a cerramic chamber into which a glass heating tube is inserted. No air runs over the ceramic, but that means the glass heating tube can be easily removed for cleaning.
Have you considered ways to remove the herb vial other than tweazers? The Vapolution combines their equivalent of the herb via and the draw tube. The down side is that you have to pack the herb into a tube open on the bottom. The up side is you can remove the herb between draws. I'm wondering if a draw tube/via combination could be created that would let the draw but lock into the vial and be used to take it out. That might give the user some ability to adjust the extent of convection vs conduction heat being used.
@cascades - no, the glass oven tube is not easily removable without disassembling the cube by taking the pcb out the bottom to have access to the ribbon heater, which holds the oven tube pretty snuggly … it really doesn't get dirty, but a q-tip/iso could clean it.
i don't use concentrates/oil that could drip into the oven. i have tested a different vial with the air intake holes on the side, rather than the bottom, that would be better for concentrates, et. al., but much more testing is required to get that right. i still don't like any of the extraction processes in common use, so i have not pursued it much.
and as for removing the vial during a session - i think it is better to micro load and finish the vial in one sitting, rather than try to extend one vial's worth of herb.
one way to change the convection vs conduction effect is to start drawing sooner, before the vial has cooked the full 2 minutes.
i don't use concentrates/oil that could drip into the oven. i have tested a different vial with the air intake holes on the side, rather than the bottom, that would be better for concentrates, et. al., but much more testing is required to get that right. i still don't like any of the extraction processes in common use, so i have not pursued it much.
and as for removing the vial during a session - i think it is better to micro load and finish the vial in one sitting, rather than try to extend one vial's worth of herb.
one way to change the convection vs conduction effect is to start drawing sooner, before the vial has cooked the full 2 minutes.
if you had lips in the vial and draw tube that fit right, then the tube could lift the vial out if the heating tube (with a twist) but folks could still use is the way you are using it now.
I kind of like vapolution's removable heating tube, but I'd buy a unit like yours without that feature.
I think the herb cube will be a nice product when it is released. I hope you have a draw tube like Vapolution has that has a glass joint on the end for use with a bubbler
I kind of like vapolution's removable heating tube, but I'd buy a unit like yours without that feature.
I think the herb cube will be a nice product when it is released. I hope you have a draw tube like Vapolution has that has a glass joint on the end for use with a bubbler
well, i don't use a bubbler or water tool, so that is left to the user. i never need it - the draw tube is adequate cooling for me. and the keyboards! can't have a bong just sitting there, waiting for me to knock it over on my desk and spill bong water all over the keyboards. taking keyboards apart to clean them is … annoying.
my goal is to keep the glassware as simple as possible - all standard laboratory glassware - vials and test tubes. except i had to go to India to get a custom size oven tube - too much waste to cut just 38mm from a 150mm tube, so they can recycle the waste glass right at the factory. and it appears US has even number diameters and EU has odd number - i needed a 15mm oven tube, to provide 0.5mm gap with the 12mm vial - 14mm or 16mm don't work.
my goal is to keep the glassware as simple as possible - all standard laboratory glassware - vials and test tubes. except i had to go to India to get a custom size oven tube - too much waste to cut just 38mm from a 150mm tube, so they can recycle the waste glass right at the factory. and it appears US has even number diameters and EU has odd number - i needed a 15mm oven tube, to provide 0.5mm gap with the 12mm vial - 14mm or 16mm don't work.
The vapolution hydratube is something like 120mmx35mm. It will not drain unless you turn it upside down(it doesn't hold much water though). The point is you don't spill water knocking it on its side. you might be able to use it directly with this thing or might need some kind of adapter.
I'm looking forward to seeing the Herbal Cube/Bud Toaster(HC/BT) released. I expect the experience will be pretty similar to the that of vaping with the Vapolution 3(which I own and which has very nice vapor quality) but with a lot more portability and a nicer case/packaging.
I can't say the HC/BT is my ideal portable vaporizer, but I don't see anything else I prefer. I'm planning to also buy a Glass Symphony and to do some minor mods to my V3. The way I see this: I'll have 3 vapes : a no compromise heavy hitter(GS), a nice session vape(V3) that can be easily moved within my house or taken to a party easily and a nice, generally portable vape(HC/BT). Each would have its own purpose.
There are things I might do a little differently with the HC/BT if it were my project. However, I think having a portable out there with a really transparent design and source code to firmware available is important and I really like all glass vapor path products. It sounds like the HC/BT wil be a less disposable, more repairable product than a lot of stuff out there and parts won't be absurd.
I hope you can bring the HC/BT to market for under $300, it sounds like you will.
One thing I'm wondering: is there any reason the HC/BT wouldn't work upside down? What I'm thinking there, if you had the right vial/drawtube combination, it might be easier to hook into some bongs that way. That also avoids the possibility of any water dripping into the glass heating chamber, which might break it. I think one approach might be to have a tube with the right length going into the heating chamber and a disc witha few wholes blocking the tube. the downside end could be the right connecter for a bong and there would be a kind of glass big around the tube with some glass bumps to hold the HC/BT up to maintain air flow. The only issue there is stuff on the display woudl be upside down, but I think that could be lived with.
I can't say the HC/BT is my ideal portable vaporizer, but I don't see anything else I prefer. I'm planning to also buy a Glass Symphony and to do some minor mods to my V3. The way I see this: I'll have 3 vapes : a no compromise heavy hitter(GS), a nice session vape(V3) that can be easily moved within my house or taken to a party easily and a nice, generally portable vape(HC/BT). Each would have its own purpose.
There are things I might do a little differently with the HC/BT if it were my project. However, I think having a portable out there with a really transparent design and source code to firmware available is important and I really like all glass vapor path products. It sounds like the HC/BT wil be a less disposable, more repairable product than a lot of stuff out there and parts won't be absurd.
I hope you can bring the HC/BT to market for under $300, it sounds like you will.
One thing I'm wondering: is there any reason the HC/BT wouldn't work upside down? What I'm thinking there, if you had the right vial/drawtube combination, it might be easier to hook into some bongs that way. That also avoids the possibility of any water dripping into the glass heating chamber, which might break it. I think one approach might be to have a tube with the right length going into the heating chamber and a disc witha few wholes blocking the tube. the downside end could be the right connecter for a bong and there would be a kind of glass big around the tube with some glass bumps to hold the HC/BT up to maintain air flow. The only issue there is stuff on the display woudl be upside down, but I think that could be lived with.
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HC/BT== Herbal Cube/ Bud Toaster
HT??
== A typo in my post I missed and corrected.
HT??
== A typo in my post I missed and corrected.HC/BT/HT??
what is it with bongs? is it your experience that all vaporizers are so hot that you must have water cooling/filtration for the vapor? or very sensitive lungs?
it occurred to me after thinking more about @JJR's convection, all glass vape, that he was running it at 500F - and it seems all the convection vapes run at an extreme temp - EVO at 1000F.
this is not that vape.
maybe calling the BT convection creates a false impression. the more i think about it, the more i appreciate the importance of the radiant heat. definitely not conduction because not much herb touches the vial walls, but the radiant heat definitely cooks the herb. so the heater is running at 385F to 395F, and the radiant effect compensates for less heat transfer to the airflow due to the lower temp.
and drawing vapor from the vial into the draw tube expands it enough to cool the vapor. 800% volume expansion.
the BT can operate in any orientation of the cube. if you use it upside down, the herb will fall out of the vial. if you put the vial in upside down in the oven tube, the rim of the vial will seal against the bottom of the oven tube, and then you can't draw air through the vial - too restrictive.
clearly, this vape is not for everyone. i have had a lifelong "issue" of trying to conclude a project - the goal posts keep moving down the field - not here - this design is just what it needs to be. if i could buy it, i would. but at this point i am really spoiled, and there is nothing like it available.
i'm thinking $500 per unit, with a lot of spare components and very long warranty. easy to repair. shipping paid both ways, if necessary. the goal: it will just work. period.
it occurred to me after thinking more about @JJR's convection, all glass vape, that he was running it at 500F - and it seems all the convection vapes run at an extreme temp - EVO at 1000F.
this is not that vape.
maybe calling the BT convection creates a false impression. the more i think about it, the more i appreciate the importance of the radiant heat. definitely not conduction because not much herb touches the vial walls, but the radiant heat definitely cooks the herb. so the heater is running at 385F to 395F, and the radiant effect compensates for less heat transfer to the airflow due to the lower temp.
and drawing vapor from the vial into the draw tube expands it enough to cool the vapor. 800% volume expansion.
the BT can operate in any orientation of the cube. if you use it upside down, the herb will fall out of the vial. if you put the vial in upside down in the oven tube, the rim of the vial will seal against the bottom of the oven tube, and then you can't draw air through the vial - too restrictive.
clearly, this vape is not for everyone. i have had a lifelong "issue" of trying to conclude a project - the goal posts keep moving down the field - not here - this design is just what it needs to be. if i could buy it, i would. but at this point i am really spoiled, and there is nothing like it available.
i'm thinking $500 per unit, with a lot of spare components and very long warranty. easy to repair. shipping paid both ways, if necessary. the goal: it will just work. period.
I know I have a really strong gag reflex and I find the Vapolution 3 to be very hard to use without their water tool. My lungs may be more sensitive than many. I think the draw and air/vapor path of the V3 is pretty similar to the Herbal Cube/Bud Toaster. I've used a Vapir NO2 without a water tool but that thing has pretty hard draw that limits how much vapir one can draw in. I also like the water tool of the V3 because I can avoid inhaling bits of hot bud. I do like the cooler temperature one gets with an ice bong.
"the BT can operate in any orientation of the cube. if you use it upside down, the herb will fall out of the vial. if you put the vial in upside down in the oven tube, the rim of the vial will seal against the bottom of the oven tube, and then you can't draw air through the vial - too restrictive."
I'm thinking a very simple adapter which might be 3rd party, would get around that. I don't think that having the weight of the cube against the heating tube is a good idea. However, the if the vial were upside down and just a little shorter, it would sit on the draw tube/water tool adapter(if a vial alternative were not integrated with that). In that case, draw tube replacement/adapter would need to hold the cube at just the right distance.
The thing with convection vapes: even if they are moving air at 200C over the bud the temperature of what air they heat may be much hotter at that point, they later blend it with cooler air. I think you are taking a better approach with the HC/BT. I wonder just what kind of chemical reactions are happening at higher temperatures.
I can understand why you might need to bring the HC/BT out at a $500 price point at first. If you can eventually do larger production runs at a lower cost, you may make more money as a lower price, but that will be easier to do after you have money coming in.
"the BT can operate in any orientation of the cube. if you use it upside down, the herb will fall out of the vial. if you put the vial in upside down in the oven tube, the rim of the vial will seal against the bottom of the oven tube, and then you can't draw air through the vial - too restrictive."
I'm thinking a very simple adapter which might be 3rd party, would get around that. I don't think that having the weight of the cube against the heating tube is a good idea. However, the if the vial were upside down and just a little shorter, it would sit on the draw tube/water tool adapter(if a vial alternative were not integrated with that). In that case, draw tube replacement/adapter would need to hold the cube at just the right distance.
The thing with convection vapes: even if they are moving air at 200C over the bud the temperature of what air they heat may be much hotter at that point, they later blend it with cooler air. I think you are taking a better approach with the HC/BT. I wonder just what kind of chemical reactions are happening at higher temperatures.
I can understand why you might need to bring the HC/BT out at a $500 price point at first. If you can eventually do larger production runs at a lower cost, you may make more money as a lower price, but that will be easier to do after you have money coming in.
Another update …
my parts bin of BBQ thermometers was getting empty, and somewhat on a whim, i got on Alibaba and ordered another 20, from a different vendor … pretty fast shipping - a week … so i pop it open to look at the probe and lo and behold, a much smaller probe - new one on top, old one underneath:
and, my oh my, this changes everything … that is, it will fit in a polyimide tube right next to the k-type thermocouple the cube uses to measure temperature with the MAX6675 chip … so many hours wasted trying to figure out some way to mount the larger probe i had been using - and to top it off, recently discovering the 20F temperature display shift with orientation of the cube … all now a solved problem. well, it is kind of exciting.
it wasn't like i didn't try to get the earlier order customized with a smaller probe - all the vendors on Alibaba will do custom mods to any item, it seems - i guess i just had a failure to communicate - the theme of my life, it seems … must work on that … stop taking "no" for an answer, for instance … a lot of lessons here, probably won't learn any damn thing, either … i'm an old dog at 70 1/2.
my parts bin of BBQ thermometers was getting empty, and somewhat on a whim, i got on Alibaba and ordered another 20, from a different vendor … pretty fast shipping - a week … so i pop it open to look at the probe and lo and behold, a much smaller probe - new one on top, old one underneath:
and, my oh my, this changes everything … that is, it will fit in a polyimide tube right next to the k-type thermocouple the cube uses to measure temperature with the MAX6675 chip … so many hours wasted trying to figure out some way to mount the larger probe i had been using - and to top it off, recently discovering the 20F temperature display shift with orientation of the cube … all now a solved problem. well, it is kind of exciting.
it wasn't like i didn't try to get the earlier order customized with a smaller probe - all the vendors on Alibaba will do custom mods to any item, it seems - i guess i just had a failure to communicate - the theme of my life, it seems … must work on that … stop taking "no" for an answer, for instance … a lot of lessons here, probably won't learn any damn thing, either … i'm an old dog at 70 1/2.
not a clue … i need at least another iteration on the pcb - it needs some edge fingers to program the processor and to connect to the BBQ thermometer pcb … i'm not sure yet how that should work.
but knowing that it is possible to get the BBQ thermometer my way - makes a bunch of things so much easier.
but knowing that it is possible to get the BBQ thermometer my way - makes a bunch of things so much easier.