Micro-dosing

[Alexis]

With the DV, how many draws per heat cycle would you do?

Is it kind of like instead of going for one big massive draw, you take it in multiples till the cool down click?

Also, when you say that you get higher from lower temps, is it a more energetic high or do you still get the full spectrum of effects?

Hi mate hope you're doing well and now this is something I have experienced great variation with recently by using a different cap not all caps are equal in their performance.

I have been using for several years what I have now discovered to be a fairly low temp cap where I need to be quite aggressive with the torch and I'm never afraid of going half a second faster click in order to get bigger hits and to finish a load in 3 hits is practically unthinkable unless I'm really sticking it right down into the heaviest flame at the bottom of the cap.

I get 5 to 8 hits per full load, when Im not trying to stretch it out. Just finish it fairly swiftly but I generally go for the biggest hits which are smooth and not too roasted I don't want the load to stay green forever but I also don't want it to be dark brown after the second hit nowhere close.

But with this other caps I have used it takes about 3 times as long for the cool down click to come and it can come bus to more easily and also gives much bigger hits with the same heating technique. The extraction of the load is much faster with this one but the Vapour is harsher and I have to concentrate more to not combust will get really big dance hits which are too much for my chest.

Show the variation in the caps can make quite a few differences with regard to the Vapour quality and and amount and density and more that I can't think to express at this moment.

Took a load of acid just recentlbut amazingly well feelomg after 900ug over 24 hours wednesday to last night. I mean, I feel hammered from it now still but that will be completely worn off in a few days and I'll be feeling right as rain again.


I have an appointment to see my amazing homeopath on Tuesday for a full diagnosis of so many things going on right now and truly genuinely effective prescribed vibrational homoeopathic remedies for each specific situation and problem including my stomach helicobacter pylori infection and severe gastritis which I'm unable to treat because Of My Extreme intolerance to medicines, and even more so the millions of natural remedies and herbs and antimicrobials which I could otherwise resort to myself in order to clear the infection, heal the guts and and eliminate the information.

But believe it or not and Mark my words people this lady will be able to give me homoeopathic medicine which will do all of this and more without me needing the damaging and toxic prescription medicines which I cannot tolerate for one day regardless.

So I will be able to make some substantial progress all around but also the home you have will diagnose and treat my anxiety and depression which actually has massive physical basis and evidence when it comes to Reading the body to do with the nervous system and emotions are kind of physical much more than we realise.


So I will be on a break from my acid tripping and have enjoyed some heavy indulgence of late. Perfect timing for a 4-week course of homoeopathy and cleaning up my all round act in the process.

I will come out the other side of the medicine in a a radically improved all round state.

 

[rnartian]

I was actually considering ordering spores and mircro dosing shrooms after I discovered a medical study treating depression with micro doses of psybicilin. I'm still considering it, but I'm currently learning how to grow my own plants, and I want to make sure I learn one thing well before trying to learn another (fungi seem more complex).

I, too, micro dose, which is why I went looking for a vape I could hit stealthily on the go (the GH fit the idea, at the time ). I really love the vapcap so far for the same reason. I've never been a person who likes to get stoned or anything. I mostly use it to manage depression and adhd. I usually only use maybe 1-2g/week. I'm thinking the lower temp cap might help with micro dosing, too, in getting more of the medicating compounds that I look for, but I might be talking out of my rear.

 

[virtualpurple]

Oh but to live in a country where getting a little LSD by mail is kosher. Cheers to you @Alexis from this jelly American!

 

[Alexis]

Oh but to live in a country where getting a little LSD by mail is kosher. Cheers to you @Alexis from this jelly American!

You can do this yourself my friend there are thousands of people in America getting in on the action right now freely and happily.

I was actually considering ordering spores and mircro dosing shrooms after I discovered a medical study treating depression with micro doses of psybicilin. I'm still considering it, but I'm currently learning how to grow my own plants, and I want to make sure I learn one thing well before trying to learn another (fungi seem more complex).

You can always join this society, who will provide you with high quality organic psilocybin mushroom microdosing capsules.

https://www.microdose4u.org

Or seek clearnet lysergamides for precise volumetric microdosing.

 

[TheThriftDrifter]

But if I'm chillin, I may use the low temp cap, heat close to the tip, just to the first click, and then work my way down to the base, for up to 5-6 draws, change the cap, and do the same for another hit or two with the reg cap.

I've been part of the dynaverse for a year and a half.
I'm always interested in how other people use their DV, gonna try the method you described above, looks like I need to buy a low temp cap.

Still not super consistent with the single flame but I love the process. My favorite is when I get an even, well toasted hit, not too hot yet with plenty of body.

Flavor hits are awesome, I also enjoy the flavor at about 3/4 of the way done, typically somewhere around hit 5 or 6, kind of a oily/resin flavor.

Hate any charred flavors though.

I get 5 to 8 hits per full load, when Im not trying to stretch it out. Just finish it fairly swiftly but I generally go for the biggest hits which are smooth and not too roasted I don't want the load to stay green forever but I also don't want it to be dark brown after the second hit nowhere close.

Amen Brother. Nail on the head.

So I will be on a break from my acid tripping and have enjoyed some heavy indulgence of late. Perfect timing for a 4-week course of homoeopathy and cleaning up my all round act in the process.

I will come out the other side of the medicine in a a radically improved all round state.

Fuck yeah Alexis! Keep me posted about how it goes.

Thanks both of you for your replies.

 

[Ramahs]

Oh but to live in a country where getting a little LSD by mail is kosher. Cheers to you @Alexis from this jelly American!

At least in most countries, like here in the US, we can still get 1P-LSD in the mail. You can even order blotter sheets treated with it. I've never tried micro-dosing with it though.

 

[Alexis]

At least in most countries, like here in the US, we can still get 1P-LSD in the mail. You can even order blotter sheets treated with it. I've never tried micro-dosing with it though.

It's just perfect for that purpose aa well, seeing as you can dead sure of the exact dose at 100ug per tab.

So easy to do as well. 10ml opaque glass bottle, some plastic syringes, exavctly 10 ml vodka or distilled water, add one tab (I cut into half first but I don't think it would matter really).

48 hours and 1 ml =10ugl microdose.

My mum is going to resume the practice herself again soon. I did start myself. I was seeing profound positive benefit but have since been on a macrodose bender- 30 trips in a month. Haha, all harmless fun in the end.

 

[joner]

looks like I need to buy a low temp cap.

It's not essential. Just a bit different experience. You can limit temperature by heating technique, but it's still cool !

 

[virtualpurple]

You can do this yourself my friend there are thousands of people in America getting in on the action right now freely and happily.


You can always join this society, who will provide you with high quality organic psilocybin mushroom microdosing capsules.

https://www.microdose4u.org

Or seek clearnet lysergamides for precise volumetric microdosing.

At least in most countries, like here in the US, we can still get 1P-LSD in the mail. You can even order blotter sheets treated with it. I've never tried micro-dosing with it though.

how can I find out more about this?

 

[rnartian]

You can do this yourself my friend there are thousands of people in America getting in on the action right now freely and happily.


You can always join this society, who will provide you with high quality organic psilocybin mushroom microdosing capsules.

https://www.microdose4u.org

Ooh, thank you! Most of my microdosing info I get from an old stoner friend who was dosing hard in the 70s and by now has calmed down, but still shares the wisom, so I know I have a good safety net for when I'm able to commit to it. I don't think I could afford a class or anything.

Or seek clearnet lysergamides for precise volumetric microdosing.

At least in most countries, like here in the US, we can still get 1P-LSD in the mail. You can even order blotter sheets treated with it. I've never tried micro-dosing with it though.

Ooooh shit, this is like research chems, ain't it? I'm already looking into it, cheers mate.

 

[Alexis]

Ooh, thank you! Most of my microdosing info I get from an old stoner friend who was dosing hard in the 70s and by now has calmed down, but still shares the wisom, so I know I have a good safety net for when I'm able to commit to it. I don't think I could afford a class or anything.




Ooooh shit, this is like research chems, ain't it? I'm already looking into it, cheers mate.

This link may be useful to you.

https://thethirdwave.co/microdosing/1p-lsd/

Good luck with it all. I hope to hear more some time.

 

[CANtalk]

Just wanted to weigh in that I have been concentrating efforts on microdosing lately. Not that I've ever been a macro doser of sorts, but much more conscious of it now.

I've primarily only been vaping my flower with my Dynavap M with ti tip and also my E-Nano. Load sizes both ~ 0.025 for simplicity sakes. I hardly ever use my larger capacity vapes anymore, but I still enjoy them on special occasions, mostly weekend evenings.

I've been using liquid dosing capsules in the mighty for load sizes between 0.05-0.1 for those special occasions, and also my ghost MV1 with a half filled crucible (~0.05). I still bust out the volcano and just cover the screen in the solid valve for around 0.1, but I can titrate bags out (usually ~2-3 bags) over a couple days.

It's pretty amazing how one can lower tolerance fairly quickly by just reducing the amount that you're consuming. I went from averaging ~0.4-0.5g/day weekdays and 1 g a day weekend's to AT MOST half of each of those. I still have 4-5 sessions most days, and feel like I'm getting quite a bit out of my herb, definitely feeling lots of effects.

I've also changed up my techniques with my Dyna and my e-nano. Introducing lower temperatures, shorter draws, shorter heating (1 click vs 2 in Dyna for example).

I'm also finding that I can get higher from lower temperatures and usually ends up lasting longer.

The fact that I've been conserving my herb is a bonus, but it is not the sole purpose of this quest. I just really feel like I can get the same amount of benefit from smaller amounts of herb as compared to larger amounts, that I had previously thought was the lower limit of consumption.

I'm also finding this mentality spilling into other areas of my life. I've found myself limiting all sorts of consumption, beer, spending, eating out (restaurants), television, couch surfing, etc.

As a result of limiting consumption I've found myself becoming more productive in other aspects of life: family, work, around the house, etc.

Microdosing for the win!

Thx for sharing this ; it's very inspirational. This thread, and a few other sources, inspired me to try microdosing to get a better cannabis-life balance and I revived this thread a few months back to share the same success. All the other posts here and your detailed feedback helps keep me striving to continue the microdosing journey. And I too find it amazingly effective .

I'm a sativa fan for sure, haha. I currently have 8 strong sativa strains and then another three potent sativa leaning strains in my collection . I'm also a low temp vape fan; my first draws are at 320 F and produce big clouds of dense vapor.

The less-is-more ethos has definitely worked for me in other aspects of life lately. I'm back in good shape and am probably lighter than I have been in 15 years .



In my microdosing journey I've been stuck on .05 - 0.1 g or so in a bowl, and it's been that way for about a few months now. However and instead, some good news is that I've been lowering the amount of sessions I do. I've pretty successfully decreased my microdosing sessions by one fresh ELB per day, which in my case is a 33% reduction in intake. The microdosing journey continues.

Cheers, good luck and share

 

[Alexis]

Thx for sharing this ; it's very inspirational. This thread, and a few other sources, inspired me to try microdosing to get a better cannabis-life balance and I revived this thread a few months back to share the same success. All the other posts here and your detailed feedback helps keep me striving to continue the microdosing journey. And I too find it amazingly effective .

I'm a sativa fan for sure, haha. I currently have 8 strong sativa strains and then another three potent sativa leaning strains in my collection . I'm also a low temp vape fan; my first draws are at 320 F and produce big clouds of dense vapor.

The less-is-more ethos has definitely worked for me in other aspects of life lately. I'm back in good shape and am probably lighter than I have been in 15 years .



In my microdosing journey I've been stuck on .05 - 0.1 g or so in a bowl, and it's been that way for about a few months now. However and instead, some good news is that I've been lowering the amount of sessions I do. I've pretty successfully decreased my microdosing sessions by one fresh ELB per day, which in my case is a 33% reduction in intake. The microdosing journey continues.

Cheers, good luck and share

Good stuff man, and thanks from everybody for for trying in with another really positive and inspirational report.

One thought I had though is that I'm not sure not 0.1 could be considered a real because that's still a pretty decent load size.

0.05 even, I would almost see that as bigger than a true technical micro depending on her strength of course but I know that you get some really lovely stuff as we have seen.

Still, I am not knocking or detracting from what you are doing, achieving and targetting.

It is entirely analagous to the universal principles running through all things. Follow the plan. Adjust bit at a time., be disciplined and consistent and thick with it and you will get results.

So just keep lowering that bar. No pressure. And I like the way you appear to be doing it very fruity and your mind without putting pressure or expectations on yourself but just being pleased with where you are at currently and the direction.

My own cannabis consumption has been highly variable lately but nowhere near excessive and generally pretty functional for me overall.

I have been experimenting wirh numerous alternative psychoactive herbs and sunstances. Currently "Kava."

A really special herb that one. No downside I am aware of. Non addictive, no withdrawals. Way better than alcohol, non toxic.

Kava has particularly been a godsend for so many addicts to beat all sorts of of serious addictions and overcome withdrawals without developing a new physical dependence to another drug.

And loads of LSD of late on a psychedellic self-psychotherapy binge. 35 trips in one month. 3500ug exactly. Remarkably I have come out of it significantly better and my all round hell physically and mentally within myself.

I never even told my mum that I have been taking any trips throughout the whole of this month but she has been remarkable more and more so how well I look and seem suddenly.

Still, time for a break.

So for anybody who is open to the idea of experimenting with alternative herbal remedies to compliment or even replace or assist with a reduction or re-evaluation of cannabis users, I can strongly recommend kava as a super medicinal harmless and extremely enjoyable Herb and experience.

@CANtalk best of luck continuing with this program I look forward to hearing the next update when hopefully the bar will be even slightly lower.

I wish I had your discipline. I did actually start out 6 weeks back microdosing the LSD, and they effects were especially positive but then things kind of went off the rails a bit.

Back to life and reality now. (For a while anyway )

 

[letter never sent]

I’ve always been a light user, but I’m getting even deeper into microdosing lately. I’m realizing (even) less is more. I can load .01-.02g in my Woodscents, crush it in one hit, and be good for an hour. It’s insane how little I can use and get where I want to be. My tolerance never seems to go up significantly despite the fact that I’ve been a nightly user for almost 10 years now (with a few extended breaks along the way).

As I’ve gotten older, I’ve come to prefer a lighter buzz vs. getting completely stoned. It’s very easy for me to overdo it with my low tolerance and the ever-increasing strength of dispensary flower. I wish I could get top-shelf stuff with half the THC. The problem is, I really enjoy the flavor, smoothness, smell, and look of premium bud, but it’s too damn strong! I’ll pick up some high CBD varieties from time to time, but the selection is so limited and the quality is never up to par with the good stuff. I realize I’m in the minority here, but thankfully this microdosing strategy is working well for me.

 

[Polarbearboy]

After more than 50 years of smoking cigarettes(Now six years without a single puff) and nearly as long smoking dope(vaping almost exclusively 4 years now), I seem to have sensitive lungs. After using any of my vapes, most often through a bubbler--or two!, I suffer from shortness of breath and wheezing, which can keep me awake at night. (Thread in Ask FC) So I tried a month of edibles only, and found that inconvenient and extremely erratic, either barely getting ripped or ending up crawling on the floor and puking which hasn't happened to me in more than 30 years. Now back to vaping but trying to be more conscious, lower temperatures, shorter tokes and almost always with water unless I'm out hiking or snowshoeing or some such. Other than with VapCaps, I always use dosing caps in my Crafty and Fury2 and usually do a whole cap during the day and a cap or two in an evening, getting two or three mini-sessions per cap. Then one night last week as I pondered my future with my favorite herb, I realized for the first time that I could put half as much or less in a cap and still get a fine strong buzz.

So over the long weekend, when I knew I'd be getting together with friends and watching the football games and also having an evening alone, I tried a little experiment, using my scale. An S-B dosing cap well-filled can take .15gms and the Fury2 caps use .1-.08gms. So I tried using less and settled on .06-.05gms in both. This doesn't fill either cap and I was concerned about stuff frying and/or coming out and instantly clogging the screens. First off, the air flow is much freer, so I'm sucking less hard. Then I seem to get just as high with half as many hits. And every hit tastes much fresher. Ya, I have to change caps more often, but that is no big deal as I have like 50 caps. I'm also projecting that my overall consumption will be down 30-50%.

One of the things that I'm learning--for the umpteenth time!--is that I am a chronic over-indulger/push it to the limits person. After two or three hits, the additional six or seven hits that I almost always take are not getting me any higher, are adding to my health issues, and costing me a fair amount of $. Now with this foray into microdosing, I've had less wheezing and better sleeping almost immediately. Let's see if using less and being more conscious continues to help.

 

[chunksluut]

I don't know if any of the og posters are still here. If you are I just came to say thank you for all the info on microdosing. I have chronic pain in my feet. Surgery won't help and a fusion is what they suggest at this point in my life. I am not even in my 30's. I have spent about a week working on microdosing and trying to get my tolerance lower. I was thinking at first this can't be true and I must be just telling myself I am high. These people have to be crazy I saw the picture of .01g and there is no way you can get buzzed on that. Well I have to say I am wrong and I have been overdosing for years. I'll admit I can't get as low as .01 just yet. I am using a vapexhale evo. I am guessing I can't go that low yet for a couple reasons. One with the e nano baskets .01 doesn't even cover the bottom. Two sadly the mj from my local dispensary is lacking. I had some of my previous grind left and was amazed by the difference. I feel some people have got to be trying to mess up growing weed. As the previous grind was an outdoor grow from the metal head down the street... Lastly me being a bigger guy (hence the name). However with all this said my vaporizer has started flashing letting me know I have taken long enough for my auto timer to go off. Grinning like a kid and pain actually relieved compared to past experiences. This is all from .03g and a huge thanks for this community!

 

[C No Ego]

I don't know if any of the og posters are still here. If you are I just came to say thank you for all the info on microdosing. I have chronic pain in my feet. Surgery won't help and a fusion is what they suggest at this point in my life. I am not even in my 30's. I have spent about a week working on microdosing and trying to get my tolerance lower. I was thinking at first this can't be true and I must be just telling myself I am high. These people have to be crazy I saw the picture of .01g and there is no way you can get buzzed on that. Well I have to say I am wrong and I have been overdosing for years. I'll admit I can't get as low as .01 just yet. I am using a vapexhale evo. I am guessing I can't go that low yet for a couple reasons. One with the e nano baskets .01 doesn't even cover the bottom. Two sadly the mj from my local dispensary is lacking. I had some of my previous grind left and was amazed by the difference. I feel some people have got to be trying to mess up growing weed. As the previous grind was an outdoor grow from the metal head down the street... Lastly me being a bigger guy (hence the name). However with all this said my vaporizer has started flashing letting me know I have taken long enough for my auto timer to go off. Grinning like a kid and pain actually relieved compared to past experiences. This is all from .03g and a huge thanks for this community!

Eat more omega three fatty acid too in any way shape or form like fish, Spirulina/ Chlorella - N-3 is the pre cursor compound to our endogenous cannabinoids ( endocannabibnoids) ... our endocannabinoid system that cannabis impacts is there as a lipid buffer to the world ... every single fat molecule we have ever ingested either metabolizes as an oxidant by product or as an anti oxidant depending on the type of fat ... N-3 is anti oxidant and it forms into a more complex compound via the arachidonic acid cascade as our cells use that essential fatty acid as a signaling lipid
N-3 anti inflammatory endocannabinoid epoxides = https://www.pnas.org/content/114/30/E6034
a few more = Taming THC - Russo
Beyond cannabis plants - Russo
this is the motherload of info - cannabimimetics https://www.sativaisticated.com/wp-...search-for-the-Endocannabinoid-System-ECS.pdf

importance of HUFAS /PUFAS for brains = https://duckduckgo.com/?q=importance+of+HUFAS+/PUFAS+for+brains&t=ffcm&atb=v165-1&ia=web

Omega three cannabis connection https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Omega+three+cannabis+connection&t=ffcm&atb=v165-1&ia=web

 

[chunksluut]

I really appreciate the reply I'll take a look!

 

[chlorophyll_man]

I don't know if any of the og posters are still here. If you are I just came to say thank you for all the info on microdosing. I have chronic pain in my feet. Surgery won't help and a fusion is what they suggest at this point in my life. I am not even in my 30's. I have spent about a week working on microdosing and trying to get my tolerance lower. I was thinking at first this can't be true and I must be just telling myself I am high. These people have to be crazy I saw the picture of .01g and there is no way you can get buzzed on that. Well I have to say I am wrong and I have been overdosing for years. I'll admit I can't get as low as .01 just yet. I am using a vapexhale evo. I am guessing I can't go that low yet for a couple reasons. One with the e nano baskets .01 doesn't even cover the bottom. Two sadly the mj from my local dispensary is lacking. I had some of my previous grind left and was amazed by the difference. I feel some people have got to be trying to mess up growing weed. As the previous grind was an outdoor grow from the metal head down the street... Lastly me being a bigger guy (hence the name). However with all this said my vaporizer has started flashing letting me know I have taken long enough for my auto timer to go off. Grinning like a kid and pain actually relieved compared to past experiences. This is all from .03g and a huge thanks for this community!

Really great post to read, nice one.
Yeah that's literally been the only downside to becoming a low/micro doser, that I don't get to use my heavy hitting desktops anymore. It feels wasteful to be using up all that power for such tiny loads.
I'll bulk up the load with a CBD strain sometimes but even then at total 0.05g it feels overkill to use the Evo/G43/Elev8r. The Dynavap Ti tip and Splinter work well for most of my sessions but for the best extraction from loads <0.02g it really has to be the Ti tip for me.

 

[lauantaimakkara]

I like to use loose packed Fury Edge capsules, and each one is around 0.025, atleast weighted on my not-so-accurate scale. Usually one capsule is enough for me. I really like it.

Now i'm waiting for TinyMight and looking forward to see how little material i can put on that device.

I hate to feel "dumb" after vaping too much but on that small dosages, i don't feel dumb at all. my body and mind feeld good and i am able to have discussions with my frieds. Ofc sometimes I like to feel dumb and then i vape more haha

 

[chlorophyll_man]

Now i'm waiting for TinyMight and looking forward to see how little material i can put on that device.

Hiya, very interested to hear what success you have with the TinyMight and what loading method you use for those small doses. Btw I also use the Edge capsules in my Fog for 0.025 when I'm outdoors.

 

[lauantaimakkara]

Hiya, very interested to hear what success you have with the TinyMight and what loading method you use for those small doses. Btw I also use the Edge capsules in my Fog for 0.025 when I'm outdoors.

It will be an interesting experiement for sure. But since TinyMight is on-demand device, i think it's possible to pack more to it but only take one hit now and then. I mean, I don't HAVE to vape everything in one session. But i'm not sure.

 

[jbm]

It will be an interesting experiement for sure. But since TinyMight is on-demand device, i think it's possible to pack more to it but only take one hit now and then. I mean, I don't HAVE to vape everything in one session. But i'm not sure.

It is possible. It’s pretty much what on-demand means. You only heat the herb when you’re taking a hit, so you can take a hit and leave it without worrying that the vape will continue to heat the material. Session vapes, the Mighty for example, continue to heat the oven even when you’re not drawing, so herb gets wasted.

 

[rozroz]

Hiya, very interested to hear what success you have with the TinyMight and what loading method you use for those small doses. Btw I also use the Edge capsules in my Fog for 0.025 when I'm outdoors.

i'm so used to capsules that going back to loading a Tinymight almost seem primitive

 

[Polarbearboy]

Its now more than two weeks since I discovered that I don't have to completely fill the dosing capsules for my Crafty and Fury--and 95% of my vaping is with dosing capsules. The Crafty being my main driver, I found that using smaller amounts of flower, the material is loose and some--trichomes! and fine flower--gets through the big holes on the S-B caps and clogs the cooling unit or water pipe adapter screens. So I've found a simple mod for the S-B capsules: A cup shaped screen in the big section, that stays in place on its own and reduces the usable volume; and a smaller round screen over the microdose before putting on the top. The small screens are a minor hassle when filling and emptying 8 or 10 capsules at a time, but keep the vape/wpa screens from clogging and the air flow open. The holes on the Fury/Edge/POVone are smaller and so its less of an issue not filling the caps completely.

More importantly: Its now been more than two weeks since I realized I could micro-dose with dosing capsules: more than any other technique I've tried to ease breathing apparatus problems, this seems to be the most effective. I'm still having two, three, or four mini-sessions a day, and getting almost the max stoned, but just feel better. The biggest benefit is my cough has almost completely disappeared and wheezing has been reduced by probably 80 or 90%. The wheezing hasn't woken me even once since I began cutting the size of loads. This is also enough time to see that my gross consumption of weed has gone down almost exactly 50%. I could actually care less about the money, but my eased lungs certainly elevate my mood, though not as much as the toking!

PS: I'm still using the scale when I'm filling caps. As noted above, instead of .13-.15gms, the S-B caps are now getting .05; instead of .08-.1gm in the Fury/Edge/POVone caps, I shoot for .04.