Is Brass Safe?

[EitherOr]

I'm curious about the SS questions myself, perhaps its own thread is warranted. I know of consumers moving away from SS cookware and water bottles because of the chance of leaching. Particularly those with a Nickel allergy/sensitivity.

The concept is the same as this Brass discussion, that under the 'right' conditions, any material can be harmful. Despite the prevalent use of SS lets not overlook that it too has some potentially harmful components, such as Chromium and Nickel.

A quick 'google' turned up this report, and under specific conditions SS did apparently leach elements into the water.

http://www.mysiggg.com/LeachingMetals.pdf

 

[Purple-Days]

Wrong, Rik. Haven't you used solder? When you heat the solder don't you see vapor? That vapor is not made of fairy dust. It's the metallic elements in vapor form being released into the air you breathe. And if you think only melting or boiling can release the lead, read on.

And BTW, Rick, I have never said that Lead from your product will, 'get to a human', your words.

But now that you mention it let's look at the ways it can enter the human body.

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927204
Section 4 suggests Skin Contact, Inhalation and Ingestion are the means of entry.
Section 8 is interesting too.

Ginni there is a difference between Stainless Steel alloys and a Leaded Brass alloy. Chromium is part of the atomic crystal structure and is tightly bound by atomic force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_bond_theory) to the other elements around it, where Lead is not. Brass is Tin and Copper and these two elements when combined form a very exact cubic crystal structure. Adding Lead to this cubic latticework places Lead atoms inside these cubic structure, but the Lead is not atomically bound to the other two elements. It's just mixed in like dirt in water. (The water is still water, just dirty.) Abrasion exposes free Lead at the surface. Fresh abrasion exposes more free Lead atoms. There is a very big difference.

 

[DevoTheStrange]

Welcome to the forum Ginni.

Stainless steel is an industry standard in the commercial food preperation industry. Also for brewing and milk processing etc. You are probably using a stainless steel spoon to eat your Wheaties. When you go for bloodwork they insert stainless steel into you, it is used in many surgical proceedures and even implants.

Stainless Steel is an issue for those who have nickel allergies.... it is something I am familiar with in my work, reactions to stainless steel, have seen quite a few in my day, quite a scary reaction to encounter. However you need to have a nickel allergy for SS to be bad for you. When you do have this allergy, you cannot touch any form of steel with any nickel in it.
You can also develop an allergy to the nickel from repeated blood exposure to SS (So if you get stuck with a needle alot, or receive many surgeries, it is possible to develop an allergic reaction to cumulative exposure, however there has to be contact with the blood stream to develop a cumulative allergy)

Only reason I know this is I stick people with surgical steel on a daily basis, I had to learn all about it. It is an almost immediate reaction. I think its only a problem for 1-2% of people. I am more worried about encountering latex allergies than I am SS allergies. however, for the other 98-99% of people it isn't really an issue. But there is Risk in everything we use.

 

[TheGinni]

I'm curious about the SS questions myself, perhaps its own thread is warranted. I know of consumers moving away from SS cookware and water bottles because of the chance of leaching. Particularly those with a Nickel allergy/sensitivity.

The concept is the same as this Brass discussion, that under the 'right' conditions, any material can be harmful. Despite the prevalent use of SS lets not overlook that it too has some potentially harmful components, such as Chromium and Nickel.

A quick 'google' turned up this report, and under specific conditions SS did apparently leach elements into the water.

http://www.mysiggg.com/LeachingMetals.pdf

I agree .. I think It is time to start a SS thread! Critical thinking is the only way to advance!! I want to know all I can about the tools I use !!

Thanks Tom! I knew you would be of great help, you really seem to know your stuff! One day I will have one of your units !! Especially for traveling!


OK I STARTED A NEW THREAD FOR STAINLESS STEEL. ANY ONE CARE TO WEIGH IN ON ITS SAFETY FUNCTIONALITY AND COMPOSITION OR SCREENS IN GENERAL:

http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?pid=64704#p64704

 

[Rick]

My question was not about solder Tom, it was about brass alloy with lead in the alloy. Your link was about lead, straight lead. Would you answer the question directly please. How does the lead in the brass alloy we use get to a human? Your constant attention to the subject certainly implies brass with lead is dangerous to humans, even if your words do not say so directly. I would venture to say that everyone on this forum would say you think brass is not safe in our(AZ/MZ) use.
The subject is safety of brass. How does the unsafe lead get out of the brass alloy and into humans with use in the AZ/MZ?
If lead in brass cannot get to a human body(from the brass alloy), how is it unsafe?
Does the molten brass I referred to earlier still have the lead in it? You also did not answer that.
Is Brass safe is the topic.
Please talk about brass alloy with lead, not solder.
It is either safe or unsafe, right? Is there a middle here?

 

[obelisk]

I don't see any point in responding to the post quoted below, since everything is becoming so repetitious, but since my post may have been misunderstood, a short note:

Purple Days, to the best of my understanding, I tested the same part of the myrtlezap that you did. You just took the thing apart, extracted the heat exchanger or whatever it is called and rubbed the test strip on its side. I tested the brass well that is soldered to the same heat exchanger, and also tested the brass parts surrounding the well-- which is the top surface of the same heat exchanger, not the sleeve surrounding it. So, in effect, yes, I do believe that I tested the same part that you did. Unless of course Rick made sure the lead was only on the sides of the component, and not the top of it. In which case, yes, I will take apart my MZ. It is my understanding that I don't need to though.

Let's get something straight, one more fucking time, I have never said the Aromazap or Myrtlezap were un-safe. I have never said you will get Lead poisoning from using one of these products.


@ Obelisk - Maybe you missed post #83
"Our brass is alloy 260 which is lead free. Thank you for your kind words.

J.C. Pell
National Sales Manager
K&S Engineering"

That is the brass tubing you tested. It is declared Lead free and you tested it and it is Lead free. Where is the surprise? Take your unit apart and test the heat sink and you will get the same results that I did.

See post #94 where Rick ignores the other portions of the airpath? Same as you are doing.

Or see his post #1601 in the Mzap thread. "As far as I know the heatsink material and the washer are not ROHs (sic)" Also he fails to mention the 1" sleeve which I will test later.

So your negative results are to be expected. And my positive results are not surprising, seeing what Rick just said about the heat sink.

This forum is here for the sharing of information. If this forum and this thread were available when I made our purchase in 2003 I would have known about the Lead in the Aromazap airpath. But the only info I had to go on (buyer beware) was Rick's FAQ which touted his Lead free solder. According to Rick he knew of the Lead content of brass from the beginning (see post #1601). But choose not to share that info.


I choose, for me and my family, not to breathe through a heated product that contains Lead. You choose for yours. But today in 2010 you can make a more informed choice than the one available to me in 2003. You now know the Aromazap and Myrtlezap contain Lead, the manufacterer says so, the tests prove it.

Oh BTW post # 119 is quite interesting, considering Rick says several places that there is Lead in his product. "We will not be spending any money for tests to prove the negative " Well of course not, because the tests will be positive.

So there is no need to cloud the issue. The Aromazap (tested) and the Myrtlezap (using the same materials) both contain Lead. Period. End of question. The manufacturer says they do!

I am not saying they are un-safe. I am not saying you shouldn't buy them. I am just sharing information, you must draw your own conclusions.

+++++

Now lets start a list of all vape makers who use brass in their airpath. And post any test results or further mfg information on the Lead content of their product.

+++++

1- Aromazap, available at http://www.aromazap.com/
Manufacturer info: FAQ page- "We use no lead solder in all of our constuction processes. We do use brass tubing in the manufacture of the heatport assembly and the vapor stem tips. Brass contains a very tiny amount of lead."
Test results on an Aromazap heat sink using the Pro-Lab Lead Surface Test Kit.
Positive for Lead.

2- Myrtlezap, available at http://www.aromazap.com/
Manufacturer info: FAQ page- "We use no lead solder in all of our constuction processes. We do use brass tubing in the manufacture of the heatport assembly and the vapor stem tips. Brass contains a very tiny amount of lead."
Test results: untested

3- looking for another vaporizer manufacturer who uses brass in the airpath to add to the list.

 

[Purple-Days]

No you did not test the same parts that I did. Unless you took the MZ apart and you make no mention of that you were not testing the parts I was. And those parts are in the airpath. Don't you get it? Rick says his product has leaded brass parts.

You are so funny Rick.

As stated earlier, "The thing is, lead is not just any metal. That's kind of the point."

Your puddle of molten brass has less Lead than it did before. Didn't you get it, that vapor contains Lead. And the puddle now contains less Lead.

"If lead in brass cannot get to a human body..." I never said that. And you have zero proof that it can't.

And didn't you say you were gonna take your ball and go to your own thread? Where I cannot respond, and where you posted lots of stuff about me? Knowing it is against the forum rules for another mfg. to post in your thread?

And since when are you in charge of what I can and cannot talk about?

See post # 134
Oh, but you are talking about Lead. Yes I am, that's what this whole thread is about, Lead, Pb. See post #60 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass#Lead_content
"This lead is present on the surface of the material, and thus presents a health concern similar to that of pure lead."

So the discussion of Lead is relevant since that is the poisonous element present in your product. And again you are trying to distract folks. Rick, admit it, you have before, your product has Lead. My test proves what you said.

Again this is information that you didn't seem to want out in the open.

As late as August of 2008 you make no mention of the Lead in your product. But according to post #1601 in the MZ thread you knew as early as 2001.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080801203615/www.aromazap.com/aromazap_faq.php

Don't you get it? The subject is Lead? No matter what the title of the thread.

Lunch was good. Back to work.

+++++ Still looking...

List of all vape makers who use brass in their airpath.

1- Aromazap, available at http://www.aromazap.com/
Manufacturer info: FAQ page- "We use no lead solder in all of our constuction processes. We do use brass tubing in the manufacture of the heatport assembly and the vapor stem tips. Brass contains a very tiny amount of lead."
Test results on an Aromazap heat sink using the Pro-Lab Lead Surface Test Kit.
Positive for Lead in the airpath.

2- Myrtlezap, available at http://www.aromazap.com/
Manufacturer info: FAQ page- "We use no lead solder in all of our constuction processes. We do use brass tubing in the manufacture of the heatport assembly and the vapor stem tips. Brass contains a very tiny amount of lead."
Test results on a Myrtlezap heat sink using a Pro-Lab Surface Test Kit
Positive for Lead in the airpath.
Tested by Obelisk 04-04-2010 "if the air that we breathe through the MZ touches the outside walls of the heavy brass cylinder, i.e. the exterior walls of the heat exchanger, then, yes there is lead in the airpath." Yes it does, per Rick.

3- looking for another vaporizer manufacturer who uses brass in the airpath to add to the list.

 

[fidget]

I have just read this entire thread and have to say that I no longer wish to own a PD.
Rick can change the brass used but I'm not sure that Tom can change his manners.
I find it hard to trust someone who has been seething for years about being exposed to lead but chose not to let the wider community know until it was seemingly expedient.

 

[Rick]

Tom said "Your puddle of molten brass has less Lead than it did before. Didn't you get it, that vapor contains Lead. And the puddle now contains less Lead."
Oh really? At what temperature does lead vaporize? I thought you were just about the facts, Mam.
The brass alloy will melt way before the lead will vaporize, correct? Or do I read the lead info incorrectly?
I am not trying to distract anyone. I am trying to get you to tell this forum how the lead in the brass alloy I use gets to a human and is therefore unsafe.
The topic is the safety of brass alloy in vape use, not lead.
You have done a very good jog with lead and how bad it is. Now tell us how it gets out of the brass alloy and into a human with our use. Should be simple for a smart guy like you.
Distract? Glad you are not doing that.
I came back over here so you can continue to dis me as you do. Also VTAC implied I was somehow afraid to talk about the brass used in AZ/MZ on this thread. Not so.
Tell us how the lead in the brass alloy I use is unsafe. How does it get to humans to cause harm?

You also said
"And since when are you in charge of what I can and cannot talk about?"
Where did that come from? My request that you follow Mods request and not post on my thread as I do not on yours? Now there is a distraction. My simple question to you is on topic and completely relevant to the discussion in this thread. I have not heard you answer it yet. Yes lead is relevant. Tell us how it gets out of the brass alloy to a human.

 

[obelisk]

Can someone tell me how to remove the heat exchanger with minimal damage to the unit?

I, in all my empty flamboyancy, just tore open the leather bottom, ripped out the cardboard, little finger muscles bulging, sun in my fucking eyes, and then saw the solder and the wires and put the mz down gently back on the counter.

i would really like to test that heat exchanger though. any help on how to access it would be welcome.

 

[DevoTheStrange]

Can someone tell me how to remove the heat exchanger with minimal damage to the unit?

I, in all my empty flamboyancy, just tore open the leather bottom, ripped out the cardboard, little finger muscles bulging, sun in my fucking eyes, and then saw the solder and the wires and put the mz down gently back on the counter.

i would really like to test that heat exchanger though. any help on how to access it would be welcome.

yeah, you went in from the wrong side....
Should be able to use some ring pliers to remove the clip holding it in and you should be able to carefully slide the heat exchanger out. Without the pliers you may find getting that clip out to be a bit difficult.

a pair of these

 

[Rick]

My experience is you will destroy the unit if you try to remove the heatport, You can get the ring out but the heatport will not come out because the wood has changed shape due to the heat. The brass will bend/crimp if you try to grab it with pliers.
If you want to test the liner, go get a 3/4 " copper bushing for copper pipe and test it. That is what we use.

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

So, I am not clearly understanding the lead "tests" being done. Does the test where you rub the paper or whatever on the side of the tube prove that there is loose lead on the metal tested, or does it merely prove that there is lead in the alloy?

And how accurate are these tests?

If it's just in the alloy then that does not prove it can get into one's blood, or lungs.


We can all agree that lead is bad. But what does lead being bad have to do with brass that has lead as part of it's make up, unless that lead is heated to a high enough temperature to be released into our lungs?

 

[obelisk]

I didn't find a pair of ring pliers at home, so instead of going to a hardware store like a normal person, I wrenched the damn heat exchanger out. I'll leave the gory details out.

I did not have as many test strips left as I would have liked but I had enough.

Moe, the test is a simple store bought home-test. It tests for leachable lead on metal surfaces. I do not know what limit it detects, but I think it said 5 parts per million and above. I could be grossly wrong here. I do not know accurate the test is. I bought it because Tom said that is what he used.

the brass plate that is visible when the unit is assembled, with all the holes, around the screen and heat well- this tested for no lead on both sides of the plate.

the heat well and brass screen tested for no lead too.

The big cylindrical heat exchanger itself, seems to have two metals. one is the brass it is made of (which is what Tom tested in his video) and then there is a plate inside the bore (where the air comes in i assume).

now, i don't know where the air comes in exactly.

if the air goes through that plated bore, then there is no lead in the air path of the MZ what so ever according to the prolab test.

if the air that we breathe through the MZ touches the outside walls of the heavy brass cylinder, i.e. the exterior walls of the heat exchanger, then, yes there is lead in the airpath. this was the only part of the MZ that tested positive for leachable lead when tested with the pro-lab home test.

a few questions that could be asked-

1) does the air we breathe through the MZ, the stoney vapors, do they touch the outside walls of this brass cylinder? By looking at the thing, I don't see any reason why they would but perhaps others better equipped can comment. the only way for vapor to go from here that i can see is up the holes in the brass plate into the air, i.e., get wasted.

2) what does 'leachable lead' here mean that the prolab tests for, are there any conditions here, like temperature, humidity, physical abrasions, etc. i.e. would the surface lead detected have any reason to be released during the mz's normal operation

3) is the test accurate to begin with, i guess

 

[Rick]

The answer to question one is yes. The air goes down through the six holes in the top plate then down around the brass heatsink(that tested positive) and then up through the center tube, past the heater and into the stem tip contents.
I think 2 is also relevant.
Your Zap is a goner now?

 

[DevoTheStrange]

I hope you didn't destroy your heat exchange pulling it out obelisk.
leachable describes the process of a substance Leaching some of its components into whatever liquid it comes into contact with, which is why glass is often preferred for liquid storage over other materials, because of the leaching that can occur.
so leachable lead means when in liquid the lead will be detected within the liquid. what it doesn't tell you however is the rate at which it will leach. Surface abrasion, temp, and def humidity all effect how things leach.

 

[obelisk]

The answer to question one is yes. The air goes down through the six holes in the top plate then down around the brass heatsink(that tested positive) and then up through the center tube, past the heater and into the stem tip contents.
I think 3 is also relevant.
Your Zap is a goner now?

Rick, yes, I edited my post a bit above. 3 is definitely relevant (though my edit changed 3 to 2 heh).

So the air going down those holes against the outside walls is cool, not hot. I dunno if that makes a difference.

My Zap is a goner, yeah. Oh well. It was beautiful and I thought if I did it maybe this thread would just fucking die. ah.

i don't even fucking care about the lead, dunno why i went that far. it's all this kief perhaps. i'm sorry man, i didn't mean no disrespect by ruining it.

Devo, so considering that the leaded part of the MZ is exposed to cool air, what are the chances that the lead would leach in? is it so simple that one can now certainly say that the MZ is unsafe? i highly doubt that. but i am sure that is how things will be presented now.

I just feel that this whole situation has been warped into something very ugly. And it's very transparent, it really isn't ambiguous anymore. I'm sorry that I involuntarily perpetuated this whole thing by participating in it, ruined my vape and came up with a little piece of information that will now undoubtedly be abused into something else to harass the MZ. :/

 

[DevoTheStrange]

Devo, so considering that the leaded part of the MZ is exposed to cool air, what are the chances that the lead would leach in? is it so simple that one can now certainly say that the MZ is unsafe? i highly doubt that. but i am sure that is how things will be presented now.

Yes cool air is taking into the vape... yet all that metal is hot, cannot deny that. We do not know the exact part in the air path where the air becomes hot. If you live in a really humid place, then you are also adding moist air into the metal parts (which would cause even more damage if you lived near the sea, salt air is corrosive.)
I think someone with experience in Leaching would be able to easily answer this question.

I did find this... describes how to remove leachable lead from brass, which is done as a measure of water quality control.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5958257.html

 

[Rick]

You did just fine obelisk. Do not apologize for anything. We have all learned alot. I always knew brass has lead in it. My explanation as to why it was still safe still stands for now. I have learned everything but that heatsink will not test positive for leachable lead. Now we need some additional?(thanks Devo) info on leaching. The Zap never gets wet in any way, thats for sure. Dryer than a popcorn fart in there.
I will be contacting my supplier tomorrow on this subject also.
And Pat just said we will send you another Myrtle, assuming you still would want to use it. Your sacrifice was for the benefit of all, especially us.
Thanks again. Good job. We will take whatever comes from this info just fine.
edit for:
I know this is out there but I wing it so could somebody post info on how I could actually get the air tested coming through my vape and how much that would cost? My apologies for not looking myself.

 

[obelisk]

You did just fine obelisk. Do not apologize for anything. We have all learned alot. I always knew brass has lead in it. My explanation as to why it was still safe still stands for now. I have learned everything but that heatsink will not test positive for leachable lead. Now we need some additional?(thanks Devo) info on leaching. The Zap never gets wet in any way, thats for sure. Dryer than a popcorn fart in there.
I will be contacting my supplier tomorrow on this subject also.
And Pat just said we will send you another Myrtle, assuming you still would want to use it. Your sacrifice was for the benefit of all, especially us.
Thanks again. Good job. We will take whatever comes from this info just fine.
edit for:
I know this is out there but I wing it so could somebody post info on how I could actually get the air tested coming through my vape and how much that would cost? My apologies for not looking myself.

Rick, thanks for your offer to get me another zapper! I cannot accept though. It was my decision, nothing to do with you, you shldn't have to pay for squat because of it. I wasn't even a new customer for you, I got it second hand. Hell, if I was a bit smarter, I would have driven to the hardware store for a pair of pliers. hehe. Please say thanks to Pat though, I appreciate the offer very much! I will be putting an order through for my very own spankin' new zapper as soon as I can afford one again, so what you could do instead, if you wouldn't mind, is make sure you score me some real primo wood for it!

 

[Purple-Days]

Moe in case you missed it you don't need quotes around "Clyde". It's my name, though most people around me know me as Tom my first name. Clyde the Carpenter was my working name most jobsites. And in dealing with Rick shortly after retirement I still went by my job name with people who were not friends.

ps. @ Moe, I did not start this thread and will be glad to add any other manufacturer to our list of vape makers using brass in the airpath. Then we can ask about the Brass they use. Is it Leaded? And possibly do some testing. Let us know of any you find. That way it won't be one sided.

The Myrtlezap test results are the same as the Aromazap test results. Not a big surprise. But it's a shame you lost your vape, Obelisk. Thanks for your honesty and sacrifice.

ps. @ Obelisk your point #3 in post #214, "is the test accurate to begin with, i guess" is answered here.

http://www.prolabinc.com/about.asp

"PRO-LAB Laboratories are inspected, licensed, recognized, accredited, certified, affiliated with, endorsed by and/or proficiency tested by a number of governmental agencies and independent associations, including but not limited to the following:

* AAB American Association of Bioanalysts
* AARST American Association of Radon Scientists and Technologists
* AIA Americas Inspector Alliance
* AIAQC American Indoor Air Quality Council
* AIHA American Industrial Hygiene Association (AIHA EMPAT # 163230)
* ASHI American Society of Home Inspectors
* ASHRAE American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air Conditioning Engineers
* CREIA California Real Estate Inspectors Association
* ESA Environmental Solutions Association
* FABI Florida Association of Home Inspectors
* GAHI Georgia Association of Home Inspectors
* IAQA Indoor Air Quality Association
* IDOPH Iowa Department of Public Health
* IESO Indoor Environmental Standards Organization
* KREIA Kentucky Real Estate Inspectors Association
* ISDOH Indiana State Department of Health
* LEHA The Lead and Environmental Hazards Association
* MDOHC State of Maine Department of Human Services
* NACHI National Association of Certified Home Inspectors
* NADCA National Air Duct Cleaners Association
* NAHI National Association of Home Inspectors
* NEHA National Environmental Health Association
* NFPA National Fire Protection Association
* NJDEP New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection
* NLAAC National Lead Abatement and Assessment Council
* NRSB National Radon Safety Board
* NYSDOH New York State Department of Health
* ODOH State of Ohio Department of Health
* PDEP Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection
* TAREI Texas Association of Real Estate Inspectors
* WQA Water Quality Association

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

Moe in case you missed it you don't need quotes around "Clyde". It's my name, though most people around me know me as Tom my first name. Clyde the Carpenter was my working name most jobsites. And in dealing with Rick shortly after retirement I still went by my job name with people who were not friends. Still do. So you can drop the quotes.

ps. @ Moe, I did not start this thread and will be glad to add any other manufacturer to our list of vape makers using brass in the airpath. Then we can ask about the Brass they use. Is it Leaded? And possibly do some testing. Let us know how many you find. That way it won't be one sided.

The Myrtlezap test results are the same as the Aromazap test results. Not a big surprise. But it's a shame you lost your vape. Thanks for your honesty and sacrifice.

I edited my post. I apologize for getting pissy. I just think you come off poorly in all of this, and so did I, which is why I edited my post.

It seems to me this controversy is being handled poorly by a lot of people, including myself. But it's hard not to respond sometimes.

 

[Purple-Days]

No need to apologize. Some folks think the name Clyde is funny. So let's laugh about it.

The points have been made. We can all move on.

 

[DevoTheStrange]

everytime i hear the name clyde I cannot help but think the phrase "Right turn Clyde."

 

[Purple-Days]

And can you imagine being Clyde, in High School, at the same time the movie came out?
I have been de-sensitized to any poking fun, long ago. Kinda proud of the name now days. My Father named me after his best friend who was killed at age 17.

I used to be teamed up with another carpenter, his name was Claude... , yes we caught hell pretty regular.