Fluxer Heaters, induction heaters for Dynavap
- Thread starter mr_cfromcali
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- induction heater
Well, I actually like the grill both aesthetically and functionally but without actually seeing it in hand it's difficult to judge whether or not it poses a threat to the battery's physical integrity. And of course you are the expert so I think it's safe to assume you would want a safe unit for yourself, so in that regard there's sort of a built-in trust with you.
At the same time, many of us here on FC have a real BIG preference for wood enclosures, just saying.
TIA
Thanks again for the feedback. I also like the look of the grill, but I'm finding that attaching it is challenging. I want it to be an effective shield while also allowing it to be removable -- without over-engineering it and thus making it unaffordable. This is proving to be a bigger challenge than the heater itself!
The grill may have been "a V1 kinda thing." I'm moving on to a different solution - we'll see if it pans out.
> At the same time, many of us here on FC have a real BIG preference for wood enclosures, just saying.
I hear you, and I don't want to disappoint you, but I don't think I can make an attractive wooden portable induction heater at an affordable price. I have a very good friend that's a former cabinet maker and also an MJ enthusiast , and I do plan on doing a couple of projects with him down the road. At the moment, though, I see more Hammond-based enclosure in my immediate future. Sorry.
Thanks for the idea - I'll keep that in mind.
I have a few others I'm looking at, too.
Fat Freddy
FUCK CANCER TOO !
Yep, exactly. That's what I had in mind, simply replacing the metal grill with something that wouldn't allow electrical conductivity.
Here
.
Monsoon
Well-Known Member
In terms of differentiating them, the Flux Deluxe seems to be more of pocket portable while the Mother Fluxer seems to be more of a cordless desktop model, one that you can leave in the middle of your coffee table or desk and just charge once a day/week without having to worry about another wire to trip over.
Do you know how many amps the Flux Deluxe will pull from the batteries? Just wondering what batteries would be needed for power it, would be cool if 3000mah's worked but those tend to have maximums for amps.
It's been fun watching this project evolve so far, can't wait to see the next products come to fruition!
Do you know how many amps the Flux Deluxe will pull from the batteries? Just wondering what batteries would be needed for power it, would be cool if 3000mah's worked but those tend to have maximums for amps.
It's been fun watching this project evolve so far, can't wait to see the next products come to fruition!
Pretty much. Or put another way, the Flux Deluxe is pocketable, whereas the Mother Fluxer isn't. As I said previously, I built the original Mother Fluxer to take along on a week-long camping trip. It saw, um, "very heavy use," and generally made it 24-36 hours between charges (I recharged it via the car battery). But we brought it on hikes and took it out on the lake, etc. My point is that it's actually a very portable size, but it is too big for most people to fit in their pocket.
Unfortunately, I don't know exactly. I have a set of Sony VTC6s I've been using w/the prototype. They are 3000mAh each (15A maximum continuous discharge, 30A maximum continuous with 80 deg C cutoff; source) and they seem to be working fine.
Thanks for your support and enthusiasm for the heaters I'm developing! I'm hopeful the Deluxe won't be too difficult to complete. A 3x 18650 heater in a 1590B enclosure was one of my goals when I began making my own heaters, so it's exciting to have a working prototype and see its release in sight.
Thanks for your comments - much appreciated!
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Thanks for the link.
TBH, I've come around on it, and am very open to the idea of a wood panel, or at least offering that as an option. I made a couple of crude, wooden "proof of concept" battery covers this afternoon with my router. The results weren't pretty enough to share, but they showed me how this could work. I'll continue to explore this - the possibilities for an exotic wood battery cover are intriguing.
That said, I'm the guy making these, and there's no reason why it has to be just one thing, or only have one kind of cover. I may offer a basic version and one or more nicer versions. Or a wooden and a non-wooden version. Hmmm....
Thanks again for the contribution. Stay tuned for future developments
Fat Freddy
FUCK CANCER TOO !
And of course, there are any number of woodworkers/artisans online that could create aftermarket enclosures, often willing to customize to the necessary dimensions/features.
For example: HERE
I'm on it, @Fat Freddy! I can't say anything else just yet, but trust that I took your request for wood to heart and am actively (!!!) exploring some solutions. Have some faith and be patient, as "this art stuff" takes a little time, lol. But you won me over, and after I work through the details of the initial release, (which will be housed entirely in sturdy metal), I expect to offer a version with some nice wooden feature(s).
Expanding on that last point, I discovered that Hammond makes two enclosures that are identically sized to the 1590BB, but are 3mm and 7mm taller, respectively. One of these will be a perfect fit for this device - probably the +3mm version, but we'll see. I ordered several of these to try out, and will haver another update in a few days once they get here. If the device fits well in the new enclosure, it should be pretty much be ready to go.
Thanks again for the input, @Fat Freddy . Stay tuned for future developments
Fat Freddy
FUCK CANCER TOO !
I'm on it, @Fat Freddy! I can't say anything else just yet, but trust that I took your request for wood to heart and am actively (!!!) exploring some solutions. Have some faith and be patient, as "this art stuff" takes a little time, lol. But you won me over, and after I work through the details of the initial release, (which will be housed entirely in sturdy metal), I expect to offer a version with some nice wooden feature(s).
Expanding on that last point, I discovered that Hammond makes two enclosures that are identically sized to the 1590BB, but are 3mm and 7mm taller, respectively. One of these will be a perfect fit for this device - probably the +3mm version, but we'll see. I ordered several of these to try out, and will haver another update in a few days once they get here. If the device fits well in the new enclosure, it should be pretty much be ready to go.
Thanks again for the input, @Fat Freddy . Stay tuned for future developments
Sounds great! Good luck with it...looking forward to seeing how it all turns out!
.
Cool! Even though I've been very focused on the Mother Fluxer this week, I haven't stopped working on the Deluxe. I finished the latest PCB revision today and ordered a batch, and they should be here in a week or so. This newest design makes better use of the space available and (IMHO) looks great on the screen. I'm eager to see if it works. The electronics could be good to go if it does.
Thanks for your interest! More to come
Hackerman
User
I have a question. And, I may not be understanding properly so correct me if I'm wrong.
The drivers that @Pipes is using seem to have a regular fail rate of the FETs. Correct?
If yes, continue. If no, skip the rest and move on. LOL
If yes,
Are you using the same drivers?
Do we know why these FETs are failing? Are we pushing these drivers beyond their intended capacity?
I may not be correct on my statement of Pipe's drivers failing a lot. It seems I see a lot about it in the forums. And, he just did a video on how to replace them so there must be more than one or 2 units failing. But, if I am correct, maybe all these beautiful enclosures require a different driver.
A lot of people are using these drivers to build DIY units both for themselves and for sale to others and they don't seem to have any concern so maybe the failures are a very small percentage.
For someone who has no clue how to solder or replace them what is the warranty on a failing FET?
Thanks
The drivers that @Pipes is using seem to have a regular fail rate of the FETs. Correct?
If yes, continue. If no, skip the rest and move on. LOL
If yes,
Are you using the same drivers?
Do we know why these FETs are failing? Are we pushing these drivers beyond their intended capacity?
I may not be correct on my statement of Pipe's drivers failing a lot. It seems I see a lot about it in the forums. And, he just did a video on how to replace them so there must be more than one or 2 units failing. But, if I am correct, maybe all these beautiful enclosures require a different driver.
A lot of people are using these drivers to build DIY units both for themselves and for sale to others and they don't seem to have any concern so maybe the failures are a very small percentage.
For someone who has no clue how to solder or replace them what is the warranty on a failing FET?
Thanks
Answer is no .
But can't just "move on " without giving some further info about the
" Magically Obliterated, Smoke & Fire Emitting Transistors ".
https://www.powerelectronictips.com/how-and-when-mosfets-blow-up/
https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-9067.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f2cb/f62a341df219ee6a47b498b7dfe387f91d4d.pdf
https://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/Vishay_Zero_Voltage_Switching.pdf
But can't just "move on " without giving some further info about the
" Magically Obliterated, Smoke & Fire Emitting Transistors ".
https://www.powerelectronictips.com/how-and-when-mosfets-blow-up/
https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-9067.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f2cb/f62a341df219ee6a47b498b7dfe387f91d4d.pdf
https://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/Vishay_Zero_Voltage_Switching.pdf
Hi Hackerman,
Thanks for your questions. I'll try to address your post as a whole, and we'll see how I do.
Fair warning: I worked for a few years as a school teacher, and that approach and tone kinda permeate my explanations. I'm also very wordy when I get going. Sorry.
All of this will be on the test, BTW.
OK, here we go...
Reasons for FET Failures in ZVS Induction Heaters,
or
Why Bad Things Sometimes Happen To Good Circuits
or
Why Bad Things Sometimes Happen To Good Circuits
Some members of the Dynavap user community seem to have a thing for these cheap inductions heaters based on the Mazzilli zero voltage switching (ZVS) circuit. These small, transistor-based induction heaters use a kind of circuit topology called "zero voltage switching" to accomplish the magic of generating heat in an object by oscillating an electro-magnetic field in a coil around that object.
ZVS behaves a bit like a see-saw, with two FET's working in opposition to one another - as one FET drains, it energized the opposite FET, and vice versa. There are some diodes (essentially one way gates) in the circuit to make sure things stay orderly. (By the way, FET = Field-Effect Transistor; MOSFET = Metal-Oxide Semiconductor Field-Effect Transistor. You're welcome.
)This site has a detailed-but-still-readable explanation of the circuit, breaking down its different components and explaining their roles:
http://www.kiblerelectronics.com/bob/app_notes/note11/note11.html
All of the material in the above link will be on the test, too.
Why should you know or care about all of this? Because it helps to understand that the FETs in these circuits are worked pretty damn hard. I don't know if you've ever flipped a light switch on and off very rapidly to simulate a strobe light, but it's a bit like that. All of that switching is hard on the thing being switched, and the cycle of being repeatedly energized and drained is harsh on the poor FETs! This circuit behaves a bit like pushing a tire down a hill - once you get it going, it will get up to speed very rapidly, especially if the material being worked is magnetic, and/or if there's enough power behind the circuit to magnetically saturate the work coil and the piece being worked. These FETs are pushed.
The heat and the stress of the IH application lead directly to the failure of the active components in the circuit.
The two FETs are the primary active components in the ZVS circuit, but the four diodes in the circuit are also considered active components. All six of these active components should probably be changed if any of them are suspected of failing, as a failure of any one of these six can also take out one or more of the other five.
Due to size and heat concerns, the FET that are used in these small ZVS circuits have some weaknesses. The Banggood/Geekcreit/Scorpion/Other brand IH heater that DV users are familiar with uses a pair of small FETs in a package format called DPAK. DPAK is quite small and compact, and this small size means that its heat shedding properties are only fair. Despite this, this is the FET that is the most widely used for this circuit, so this is what those of us building heaters based on this circuit have to deal with. They fail a lot compared to transistors in other circuits, but they are also generating an electro-magnetic field expressly for the purpose of heating something at the molecular level, so their tasks are different than those of most transistors. These FETs aren't decoding a file or processing a video, they're actively converting a magnetic field to heat, and they live on the edge of failure to do it. Making them larger would make them more robust, but they wouldn't run as well on 12V, and they definitely wouldn't fit into small heating devices. So their application here is something of aa compromise, and that should be understood before purchase.
BTW, these FETs cost less than $1 to buy, and probably only pennies to make. And the diodes are even cheaper. None of the components in this circuit are particularly expensive, but as you might suspect, cheap parts are cheap for the usual reasons, and those get compounded a bit by the very small size of the SMD (surface mounted device, a very small size) components used in the Banggood and similar circuits.
OK, so that's the background info of this situation. But what about Fluxer, you ask? Where do I stand on component failure? Well, I'm opposed to it
My portable circuits are based on my own circuit board, which I designed. I am not using the Banggood SMD circuits in my portable heaters - apart from The Grande, for packaging reasons, but that will likely change now that my boards are stable.
I chose the components I am using to make up my circuit. They're good ones - better than the SMD components.
My components are "through-hole", which is a larger size than SMD, so they shed heat better and their size makes them a lot more robust.
That said, for packaging reasons my FETs are still DPAK sized. It's just very hard to make a small portable with a bigger FET.
I populate and hand-solder each board myself, then test it for quality. When I finish a heater, I am confident it works.
So, I am building the best devices I can. Now, once they leave my shop and make their way into the real world, they're out of my control. I also honestly won't know what the failure rate will be until these get into people's hands and they start using them. But again, I'm building these to the best of my abilities, and want them to be as good as possible.
That said...even with the best plans, parts, and intentions, sometimes stuff still fails. Unlike the Dynavap itself, these mini induction heaters aren't "forever" devices designed to survive the apocalypse. They have electronics, and they aren't made of stainless steel or titanium. Some of them are going to fail, possibly more than once. It's inevitable.
I intend to be be very clear about my support policies before I sell any of these portable units, but TBH I'm still working out what I think a fair policy will be. At this point, my plan is to offer these with a clearly stated limited warranty (warranty period and details still TBD, but it will be reasonable and consistent with a device that sells for $125-$150*). I also intend to make any out-of-warranty repairs cost as little as possible, since shipping alone will probably exceed the cost of any replacement parts. BTW, it takes about the same time to build up a new PCB from scratch as it does to remove and replace the FETs, never mind the other four diodes; it's easier to build something small than fix something small.
Anyway, I'm going to end this novel for now.
*I'm a one man shop and this isn't my day job. I cannot provide unlimited, free, lifetime support for these devices - hell, I can't even provide that for my kids, and they're my kids, lol. But I will stand behind them and make sure that my users are satisfied with their purchases.
-----
Updated to add: @stardustsailor responded ahead of me in while I was writing my response. I will readily acknowledge that he's a lot more knowledgeable about electronics than I am.
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Hackerman
User
Well, most of that is Greek to me but if you say so..... that's good enough for me.
Just seemed like there was a lot of talk about failing FETs.
Thanks
Hi Hackerman,
Thanks for your questions. I'll try to address your post as a whole, and we'll see how I do.
Fair warning: I worked for a few years as a school teacher, and that approach and tone kinda permeate my explanations. I'm also very wordy when I get going. Sorry.
All of this will be on the test, BTW.
OK, here we go...
Reasons for FET Failures in ZVS Induction Heaters,
or
Why Bad Things Sometimes Happen To Good Circuits
Some members of the Dynavap user community seem to have a thing for these cheap inductions heaters based on the Mazzilli zero voltage switching (ZVS) circuit. These small, transistor-based induction heaters use a kind of circuit topology called "zero voltage switching" to accomplish the magic of generating heat in an object by oscillating an electro-magnetic field in a coil around that object.
ZVS behaves a bit like a see-saw, with two FET's working in opposition to one another - as one FET drains, it energized the opposite FET, and vice versa. There are some diodes (essentially one way gates) in the circuit to make sure things stay orderly. (By the way, FET = Field-Effect Transistor; MOSFET = Metal-Oxide Semiconductor Field-Effect Transistor. You're welcome.
This site has a detailed-but-still-readable explanation of the circuit, breaking down its different components and explaining their roles:
http://www.kiblerelectronics.com/bob/app_notes/note11/note11.html
All of the material in the above link will be on the test, too.
Why should you know or care about all of this? Because it helps to understand that the FETs in these circuits are worked pretty damn hard. I don't know if you've ever flipped a light switch on and off very rapidly to simulate a strobe light, but it's a bit like that. All of that switching is hard on the thing being switched, and the cycle of being repeatedly energized and drained is harsh on the poor FETs! This circuit behaves a bit like pushing a tire down a hill - once you get it going, it will get up to speed very rapidly, especially if the material being worked is magnetic, and/or if there's enough power behind the circuit to magnetically saturate the work coil and the piece being worked. These FETs are pushed.
The heat and the stress of the IH application lead directly to the failure of the active components in the circuit.
The two FETs are the primary active components in the ZVS circuit, but the four diodes in the circuit are also considered active components. All six of these active components should probably be changed if any of them are suspected of failing, as a failure of any one of these six can also take out one or more of the other five.
Due to size and heat concerns, the FET that are used in these small ZVS circuits have some weaknesses. The Banggood/Geekcreit/Scorpion/Other brand IH heater that DV users are familiar with uses a pair of small FETs in a package format called DPAK. DPAK is quite small and compact, and this small size means that its heat shedding properties are only fair. Despite this, this is the FET that is the most widely used for this circuit, so this is what those of us building heaters based on this circuit have to deal with. They fail a lot compared to transistors in other circuits, but they are also generating an electro-magnetic field expressly for the purpose of heating something at the molecular level, so their tasks are different than those of most transistors. These FETs aren't decoding a file or processing a video, they're actively converting a magnetic field to heat, and they live on the edge of failure to do it. Making them larger would make them more robust, but they wouldn't run as well on 12V, and they definitely wouldn't fit into small heating devices. So their application here is something of aa compromise, and that should be understood before purchase.
BTW, these FETs cost less than $1 to buy, and probably only pennies to make. And the diodes are even cheaper. None of the components in this circuit are particularly expensive, but as you might suspect, cheap parts are cheap for the usual reasons, and those get compounded a bit by the very small size of the SMD (surface mounted device, a very small size) components used in the Banggood and similar circuits.
OK, so that's the background info of this situation. But what about Fluxer, you ask? Where do I stand on component failure? Well, I'm opposed to it
My portable circuits are based on my own circuit board, which I designed. I am not using the Banggood SMD circuits in my portable heaters - apart from The Grande, for packaging reasons, but that will likely change now that my boards are stable.
I chose the components I am using to make up my circuit. They're good ones - better than the SMD components.
My components are "through-hole", which is a larger size than SMD, so they shed heat better and their size makes them a lot more robust.
That said, for packaging reasons my FETs are still DPAK sized. It's just very hard to make a small portable with a bigger FET.
I populate and hand-solder each board myself, then test it for quality. When I finish a heater, I am confident it works.
So, I am building the best devices I can. Now, once they leave my shop and makes their way into the real world, they're out of my control. I also I honestly won't know what the failure rate will be until these get into people's hands and they start using them. But again, I'm building these to the best of my abilities, and want them to be as good as possible.
That said...even with the best plans, parts, and intentions, sometimes stuff still fails. Unlike the Dynavap itself, these aren't mini induction heaters aren't "forever" devices designed to survive the apocalypse. They have electronics, and they aren't made of stainless steel or titanium. Some of them are going to fail, possibly more than once. It's inevitable.
I intend to be be very clear about my support policies before I sell any of these portable units, but TBH I'm still working out what I think a fair policy will be. At this point, my plan is to offer these with a clearly stated limited warranty (warranty period and details still TBD, but it will be reasonable and consistent with a device that sells for $125-$150*). I also intend to make any out-of-warranty repairs cost as little as possible, since shipping alone will probably exceed the cost of any replacement parts. BTW, it takes about the same time to build up a new PCB from scratch as it does to remove and replace the FETs, never mind the other four diodes; it's easier to build something small than fix something small.
Anyway, I'm going to end this novel for now.
*I'm a one man shop and this isn't my day job. I cannot provide unlimited, free, lifetime support for these devices - hell, I can't even provide that for my kids, and they're my kids, lol. But I will stand behind them and make sure that my users are satisfied with their purchases.
-----
Updated to add: @stardustsailor responded ahead of me in while I was writing my response. I will readily acknowledge that he's a lot more knowledgeable about electronics than I am.
Damn!!! Now, THAT I understood. If you are, indeed a teacher, you are a very good one. Thank you very much for that wonderful explanation.
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Just a side note :
Regarding the DIY induction heaters which utilise the 5-12 Volt ZVS IH module
(or any other ZVS module / DIY circuit ) the main single thing that shortens the service life
of the MOSFETs is VHF NOISE .
And the main source of VHF noise is the tactile switch or the push button,
used to activate the IH ,through a MOSFET switch circuit.
Adding a switch debouncing sub-circuit will prolong the service life of the two MOSFETs ,
used at the ZVS IH module / DIY circuit .
Here's a very good solution :
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/v...ating-bits-n-pieces.33216/page-2#post-1310853
Regarding the DIY induction heaters which utilise the 5-12 Volt ZVS IH module
(or any other ZVS module / DIY circuit ) the main single thing that shortens the service life
of the MOSFETs is VHF NOISE .
And the main source of VHF noise is the tactile switch or the push button,
used to activate the IH ,through a MOSFET switch circuit.
Adding a switch debouncing sub-circuit will prolong the service life of the two MOSFETs ,
used at the ZVS IH module / DIY circuit .
Here's a very good solution :
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/v...ating-bits-n-pieces.33216/page-2#post-1310853
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Noted! And thanks!! I was not aware of this issue, but it looks like it will be straightforward to fix. And the device will be much better for it. A genuine thank you, I appreciate the help!
pxl_jockey
Just a dude
I’m happy to see there is indeed a way to extend the service life of these MOSFETs that live on the edge.
And that it’s something that @mr_cfromcali can and intends to implement. To me, that alone helps to differentiate the Fluxer family from other available options. That along with better components on a custom board really adds value for a $125-150 IH. I don’t think that anyone should object to reasonable costs for repairs beyond the established timeframe as long as it’s clear. You are very clear in your communication.
But you know there will always be someone who wants it for free forever!
And that it’s something that @mr_cfromcali can and intends to implement. To me, that alone helps to differentiate the Fluxer family from other available options. That along with better components on a custom board really adds value for a $125-150 IH. I don’t think that anyone should object to reasonable costs for repairs beyond the established timeframe as long as it’s clear. You are very clear in your communication.
But you know there will always be someone who wants it for free forever!
Hackerman
User
Big thanks to both @stardustsailor and @mr_cfromcali for those posts. After reading Fluxer's explaination, it made the papers that SDS posted very easy to understand.
Thanks to the 2 of you, I now have a complete understanding of what's happening.
Isn't there another component that would have been better than the FET for that application?
Thanks again, guys, for taking the time to put me on the path.
Thanks to the 2 of you, I now have a complete understanding of what's happening.
Isn't there another component that would have been better than the FET for that application?
Thanks again, guys, for taking the time to put me on the path.
Nope .
Yes .Exactly.So, what was really lacking in the ZVS was the circuit design, not really the component selection.
Thanks again for taking the time.
A very efficient circuitry for induction heating ( efficiency higher than 90% ) ,
but it can stress the MOSFETs to the edge of failure ..or -quite often -push them over it .
There are ,of course , new FETs with internal diodes of very fast recovery
and very low Drain to Source On resistance .
They are exceptionally robust when it comes to high frequency zero voltage switching .
pxl_jockey
Just a dude
But are the new robust FETs with the internal diodes suitable for this purpose or overkill?