Anvil by Vestratto

[Texus]

A lot of manufacturers tend to launch with direct sales first in order to maximize margin in an effort to pay off startup costs that come along with a new product (patents, machinery, tooling, etc). Those costs can be significant and far outweigh any promotional costs.

This was my first thought when the PH news came out, but I am also one to wait until John has provided his side of the story.

Let's hope that he can make good with PH somehow, but of course that's for PH to decide in terms of what, if anything, can repair this relationship. Limited edition Anvils available only on PH? Exclusive access to a new accessory for 6 months? etc...

Always hope that relationships can be repaired.

 

[VGOODIEZ]

I'm sure like most wise men @VGOODIEZ wants to fully digest all that has been said and not come to any snap decisions

Bingo. And I still don't feel like I have all the information I need to comfortably decide here. I spoke to John but also have reached out to PH on the subject and was hoping they would share additional perspective. Ultimately what I would prefer to happen is what I planned. Those guys launch (now obviously having some things to work though to see if this can even happen) and I wait my turn until there is product available for me to purchase.

 

[gordontreeman]

I believe John will reluctantly join the forum and provide a response. I think we should hear him out.

As I have explained prior, my interaction has been pleasant and I never got the impression he was greedy or trying to mislead me so there's that. I offered him money multiple times to secure an order and he would not accept it until he was able to provide product. Not sure what kind of agreement PH would have had but if John took money from them and did this, I'd say it's pretty bad. But if no money was taken its different for me. A lot of manufacturers tend to launch with direct sales first in order to maximize margin in an effort to pay off startup costs that come along with a new product (patents, machinery, tooling, etc). Those costs can be significant and far outweigh any promotional costs.

And while I agree this business is best left between him and PH, PH has already chosen to bring it here so it's only fair to let John provide his side. Even if it's just a one time clarification post.

I am trying to keep an open mind, but I'm not sure I disagree with the "no money exchanged" path and conclusions you've come to (not to imply that they are incorrect or anything to that effect). It seems like John/Vestratto were still happy to let PH promote their product for them (and take feedback from them during development, if that is all true and accurate). I guess its true that PH should have formalized this with more than a handshake, but that still doesn't excuse taking advantage of them imo.

It just seems like if its true that this was a manufacturer direct pre-order to gauge interest or maximize margins it wouldn't have been difficult to have a conversation with PH to set expectations before leaving them feeling burned about the time and effort they invested raising awareness here and on reddit.

 

[VGOODIEZ]

It just seems like if its true that this was a manufacturer direct pre-order to gauge interest or maximize margins it wouldn't have been difficult to have a conversation with PH to set expectations before leaving them feeling burned about the time and effort they invested raising awareness here and on reddit.

I don't disagree. Which is why I'm not willing to weigh in on a final decision. I also want to hear from PH on exactly how they anticipated this going down. I reached out to them. The only thing that is clear, is that is not clear! It seems communication between the two parties could be driving a lot of the issue. John could have been more clear on his strategy and PH could have been more clear on their expectations. It doesn't seem like this was worked out and now it's being worked out here, which again is unfortunate for everyone involved, including paying customer's who don't feel good about their new purchase.

 

[Bad Dog]

I also feel that @PlanetHaze was within their rights to air their grievance, and that their response was appropriately restrained for how they must be felling. I know some people think is not the place for this but if I bought a vape that was defective or worse yet dangerous should I not post about that??? some people think threads should be nothing but glowing reviews but that does not reflect the true reality of the world. planet haze didn't go on a 20 page tirade slamming the vape they simply said what happened from their point of view. I don't think it would be fair to expect planet haze to just quietly do nothing and just go away. that said I'm willing to hear the other side of this, how can you make a informed decision without all the information ????

 

[ConvectCode1]

It all sucks because I thought this would be celebrated release by the community and now it’s flat out anything but.
I guess.

 

[Bad Dog]

performance wise I doubt anyone will have much to complain about according to the videos in the thread. people will make up their own minds about how they feel about this after John says his piece.

 

[KindBuddyBud]

Damn, from MacGyver to Rob Ott in like two weeks. Shout to @coolbreeze
edit: I did not know the owner of PH was named Robert. No shade on anyone.

 

[staircase slight of hand]

for me its simple: if somebody acts like this with long-term buisness partners i am pretty sceptic how will he act with customer support, keeping their word with preorders and so on.

Yep, that’s exactly where I’m at with that. For distributors and everyone else involved professionally I see the value in all the “if it’s not in writing it doesn’t exist” advice, but as a customer I’m not going to waste my time with that. I’m not going to take anyone to small-claims court over a vape purchase, so “in writing” means nothing to me. If your word can’t be trusted, we’re done.

 

[Duba]

Things are rarely simple.
For my part, I know neither one nor the other, I bought my Anvil on the manufacturer's site, it doesn't seem to me insane. Obviously, there is a dispute (made public here) between 2 commercial partners that will certainly find a solution.
In the meantime, I find it quite frightening that the one who doesn't express himself publicly on this forum (which he doesn't use by the way?) to justify the sale of his product, is condemned in advance by some. He, his brand, his product, his probity.
Let's avoid the excesses of the media and social networks that condemn too quickly and often without knowing.

 

[staircase slight of hand]

I’m just basing my opinions on what long-standing trusted community members have said about the situation. If John/Vestratto want their side to be considered, no one is stopping them from addressing the matter, but at the moment I have no reason to just default to giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Fox]

Und was sagt uns das? Das böse Geld darf nicht die Kontrolle haben die Menschlichkeit ist und bleibt immer das Maß aller Dinge. Bitte klärt das wie intelligente Lebensformen damit wir alle Freude an diesem neuen Vaporizer haben werden. Bitte, bitte, bitte

 

[Vestratto]

Hi everyone, I have sent my response to the FC Community, Message #535 which I posted at 2.15 pm EST seems to be " This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors."

 

[Zuhdj]

Hi everyone, I have sent my response to the FC Community, Message #535 which I posted at 2.15 pm EST seems to be " This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors."

Maybe try submitting it again. Sometimes stuff it weird

 

[Vestratto]

Vestratto is 100% owned by John Mumford. Planet Haze has no financial interest in Vestratto or the Anvil Technology. Planet Haze tested early portable vapes made by Vestratto but did not at any time contribute financially to the Anvil technology specification or development. Planet Haze has not been involved in any testing since before the COVID outbreak began two years ago. Planet Haze has NEVER ordered any Anvil vaporizers from Vestratto and has no right to claim ownership of the technology or influence in Vestratto's business operation. There is a lot of history here but the bottom line is that, as is industry custom, Vestratto launched its proprietary Anvil product first. Subsequently offering products for sale to Dealers including Planet Haze. Clearly Planet Haze felt they had a more significant interest in Anvil because of the many year personal friendship between John and Robert. This was completely unrealistic given zero investment or assumption of any risk on Planet Haze' part. Planet Haze began hosting this FC thread to introduce the Anvil product and as a manufacturer we welcomed that exposure. The technical content of every post was provided to Planet Haze by Vestratto and reposted by Planet Haze with their own spin. Vestratto had no intention that Planet Haze be perceived as an owner of Anvil or to mislead the FC community as to who the real owner of Anvil is. We apologize for this confusion and regret that Planet Haze has chosen to make a delay of two days in their ability to sell Anvil a Public Dispute on FC. Ask yourself one pertinent question. If Planet Haze had even one nickel of risk in the Anvil Project why did they choose to burn the house down publicly?

 

[staircase slight of hand]

John, did you not see the promotion that PH was doing, especially regarding the details of the release? And if you did, did you work with PH to clarify the confusion? Your silence in light of what seems to have been a pretty obvious problem brewing doesn’t reflect well on your business acumen or trustworthiness.

 

[Zuhdj]

John, did you not see the promotion that PH was doing, especially regarding the details of the release? And if you did, did you work with PH to clarify the confusion? Your silence in light of what seems to have been a pretty obvious problem brewing doesn’t reflect well on your business acumen or trustworthiness.

i disagree with this. It's literally only been a day and yesterday John was busy taking care of those retroactive discounts. There hasn't been much time for him to respond especially given all the orders he had to work through. I see why PH is upset and I would be too, however I still want to give John a chance here. That's not to say going back on this agreement isn't wrong but he's barely spoken guys

 

[Vestratto]

John, did you not see the promotion that PH was doing, especially regarding the details of the release? And if you did, did you work with PH to clarify the confusion? Your silence in light of what seems to have been a pretty obvious problem brewing doesn’t reflect well on your business acumen or trustworthiness.

For those of you who know me personally you know that I am not on social media. The previous is my first ever post here on FC. My job is building, not promoting the Anvil. I trusted Planet Haze to represent our relationship factually and honestly.

On Thursday night I spoke to Planet Haze (Robert) on the phone for an hour and told him - not negotiated with him - that Vestratto was going to launch Anvil ahead of dealers. His being angry and throwing me under the bus does not mean I have poor business acumen. I communicated my decision to every dealer equally. Can you name even one manufacturer that does not do their own product launch.

If Robert wanted to be forthright about the existence of a Private email list why not request a special code for members of FC so as to get credit applied for that promotional effort. I likely would have had to adjust margins because these early units are all being sold at a loss against invested capital.

 

[staircase slight of hand]

My job is building, not promoting the Anvil.

Yeah, that’s pretty clear from the fact all of the promotion was farmed out to PH. I’m not saying you’re a villain for the way you’re running your business, but it’s pretty clearly not the sort of behavior that I’d support financially. Best of luck to you, buddy.

 

[Vestratto]

Yeah, that’s pretty clear from the fact all of the promotion was farmed out to PH. I’m not saying you’re a villain for the way you’re running your business, but it’s pretty clearly not the sort of behavior that I’d support financially. Best of luck to you, buddy.

I respect that you don't want to buy an Anvil but make it about the merits of the product not about your picking a side in a fight that you aren't even a party to.

 

[Fogoff]

Nice to hear both sides. Let the product speaks for himself thats what matter to me the most.

 

[staircase slight of hand]

make it about the merits of the product not about your picking a side in a fight that you aren't even a party to.

If you’re unconcerned about the business ethics of those you choose to work with, that’s fine (and unsurprising). You don’t get to ask that of your customers, though. The raw product is only one component of a purchase.

 

[Zuhdj]

@venturig Well here's to hoping for a resolution between you two. In the meantime, will these preorder unit be shipping out in January? I know that's when they'll arrive but when do you think you'll be able to send them out?

 

[Vestratto]

If you’re unconcerned about the business ethics of those you choose to work with, that’s fine (and unsurprising). You don’t get to ask that of your customers, though. The raw product is only one component of a purchase.

I understand where you are coming from but maybe your view is coloured because you got a very selfish take of the circumstances from Planet Haze Vestratto trashing first. Planet Haze was NEVER cut out of the sales of Anvil. Just delayed over the weekend so Vestratto, the manufacturer, could launch first. The sticking point was that they were keeping a private list, telling the FC community they had the right to first launch, and not being transparent. They have been as embarrassed as we are by this whole mess. As a manufacturer we don't control the content generated by reviewers, dealers or other points of influence. If you think Sneaky Pete or Troy and Jerry are passing the edit controls to me you are wrong. We trust, as you do, that folks that represent our interests do so honestly.

 

[Bad Dog]

first I want to say thank you for coming here to address our concerns, it shows you have respect for the community. however from what you said

On Thursday night I spoke to Planet Haze (Robert) on the phone for an hour and told him - not negotiated with him - that Vestratto was going to launch Anvil ahead of dealers.

this sounds like you did have a agreement with planet haze for the launch which you backed out of. I don't envy you being a new manufacturer in a competitive industry and I know nothing of your bottom line but I don't agree with the way things were handled. its your business and obviously you are free to run it as you see fit and business sometimes means making tough choices but it seem you were all to happy to let planet haze spearhead the launch and build buzz for you but when the time came to honour your arrangement you went in a different direction leaving them in the cold.