Discontinued Zion vaporizer

[Joel W.]

Yeah sucks to wait, why I strongly recommend any Zion waiters jump in on the Milaana today while they still can. It can tide you over until Zion comes, and would be a very nice back up if nothing else, without the portability needs and such it is still a great vape all on its own, would be good to have if Zion ever needs to be repaired etc...

My VAS has been kept in check lately, so a Zion and or a Mi will only be overkill (I like overkill). I must say I really like the improvements that I have recently seen in the MI thread and I am happy to see on RBT's site that those improvements will be implemented in the new Zions.

"With Milaana complete, Zion will get the love that it deserves. A machine shop was contacted to build the steel fixtures required to machine the magnet holes to the precision required to ensure magnets do not fall out. Lesser strength magnets are also being considered as an option. Much of the learning from Milaana (routing, sanding, heater glass recess, heater screen assembly, adhesive bond improvements, etc) will now be applied to Zion. Once the jigs are completed the magnets can be applied and then the parts can be assembled and sanded. Once all six sides are sanded the routing can be completed, then machine sanding, then the 4 step dry / wet finishing process will complete the bodies. This will complete the wooden bodies and then assembly can begin. In the process, the handful of returns and partial builds will be completed for early customer acceptance testing."

 

[AJS]

It seems as if RBT has "layered" his heater, like a winding S similar to the Supreme. I think this because of my (little) experience with the Milaana. When using a light up to a glass tube, it's extremely easy to see the vapor produced...obviously. Well, the Milaana can produce vapor sometimes up to 7 seconds AFTER you have let off the trigger. This is an insanely long time. My Lotus can hold vapor for maybe up to 3 seconds after letting off the torch, leading me to believe the Lotus has a much thinner area for the heater to remain heated and continuously produce hot air.

The Milaana obviously holds some sort of massive heater that retains heat extremely well, and my only answer for it is that it winds through, allowing the air pulled through to gather massive amounts of heat as it makes very long contact with the heater.

Even if my speculation is wrong, I feel I'm hitting the gist of it, which makes me even more excited for the Zion. Not only does it have TWO batteries to hold heat better, a potentiometer, and on-board storage, it also will have a BIGGER heater to allow even more force behind those draws.

Too excited.

 

[grokit]

I remember when rbt purchased a $150k wood milling machine a while back; is it just for prototyping? Because it sounds like the manufacturing will be done in another location. Financial difficulties suck.

 

[little maggie]

I think I remember Rbt saying the patent was still in "litigation", which in my mind means it's not solid, at all..

Then he started selling them to anyone who wants one. So good luck with him keeping the heater patent a secret now.

Still waiting on mine.. The Mi thread however, with all the activity, is starting to bum me the fuck out as I ordered my Zion back in Aug of 2015.

Edit: To be clear, I am happy for the new Mi owners and to RBT for making it a reality but I am jealous to still be waiting for mine. I am trying to be patient..

I'm one of the first 20 Zion orderers and still waiting for mine. But I love the Milaana and the responses from RBT about this as well as the shipping of accessories is very rapid. Now that I have Aiden I have no problem waiting. The question is whether to buy a backup Milaana while they are on sale or wait for the Zion.

 

[cybrguy]

I'm tellin ya, RBT technologies are really spoilers. I'm going to have to travel for 5 or 6 days soon, and the thought of being without both Bam Bam and Venus for that long is oddly alarming...

 

[DieHard]

I will say this. China IS watching. Don't kid yourself. In the Cheap...bubbler thread, they are watching and the listings on dhgate are the proof. I was even contacted here recently by a dhgate seller with a drawing of his idea for a glass piece. I should send it to an American blower to copy.

 

[Madcap79]

I will say this. China IS watching. Don't kid yourself. In the Cheap...bubbler thread, they are watching and the listings on dhgate are the proof. I was even contacted here recently by a dhgate seller with a drawing of his idea for a glass piece. I should send it to an American blower to copy.

I'm sure they are. I do find it odd that people trash Chinese copies of vapes (for the most part) but are more than willing to buy Chinese glass. That's for a different thread though. Honestly, if anyone was curious enough, they can easily find the tech (or at least the basis for it) online. I guess it all depends on how badly someone would want to copy it.

 

[flotntoke]

I'm sure they are. I do find it odd that people trash Chinese copies of vapes (for the most part) but are more than willing to buy Chinese glass. That's for a different thread though. Honestly, if anyone was curious enough, they can easily find the tech (or at least the basis for it) online. I guess it all depends on how badly someone would want to copy it.

And, how cheaply they can copy it. Glass is cheap material, and if you're just copying you can grab people who already blow glass and have them figure out how to do bubblers. I'm sure once you get a few things figured out, it's not too hard to adjust to different pieces. May have to figure out a new technique every so often, but still usually building on what has already been figured out then adding or changing steps in the process here or there. And, not like there is really much that can go wrong once the piece is made and functioning. Sure thinner glass breaks easier (as do poor welds and the rest), but it's not like components will fail.

Heater tech could be a little more difficult to figure out, especially if it is something totally new and different. Plus more expensive to get components to play with. But, you can believe once they figure it out - if it can be done cheaply they will. And, patent won't make a damned bit of difference for them. Never does, and even most multi-million dollar companies don't have the time, money or legal teams to fight it. So RBT, and other small manufacturers, just have to suck it up. Best case here is the Chinese copiers can only do a cheaper version that is very inferior. Plus, I think it's cheaper to do plastic than wood over there so RBT should have some advantage over others who get copied.

 

[cybrguy]

Plus the knockoff vendors are only looking to make money, not a good product, and will be way more likely to use unsafe or inappropriate materials to lower cost. They have no concern for reputation as they are just stealing an existing design so nothing to hold them back.

 

[YungLeaner]

Plus the knockoff vendors are only looking to make money, not a good product, and will be way more likely to use unsafe or inappropriate materials to lower cost. They have no concern for reputation as they are just stealing an existing design so nothing to hold them back.

I don't think the Zion is at very high risk for Chinese replicas. As mentioned above their price advantages are largely in plastics and electronics manufacturing. They (as a conglomerate because it's difficult to easily figure out who is who, who owns who etc...) have shown remarkably little progress in the area of heater tech. The Chinese originals have been the successes, anyways. The Arizer and Firefly and Pax knock offs are only purchased by people who are either ignorant, misinformed or lied to.

Zion is actually kind of a classic example of a modern product market dividing itself between China and America. You want the cheapest, solid electronic vape money can buy? Flowermate, all the rebrands, the Boundless models etc. But if you want top quality vapor coming from North America, you could buy a Zion. Or a FF, I guess...but there's all the attendant headaches, wonky app temp control and I'm pretty sure they manufacture in China. Things could turn around quick if a Chinese company successfully builds a high quality convection unit, but if they do I highly doubt it will be a copy of the Zion. Much more likely something similar to CFX with more isolated / further bowl.

 

[Tommy10]

I wouldn't be upset if a zoion made it to China, I am not a huge personal believer in owning the right to build a certain design. Once it exisit, it exisit as far as I'm concerned.... Customer service would probably be a damn sight better too!

 

[TheRobbo]

 

[TeeJay1952]

@Tommy10 Boooooooooooooooooo!

 

[Tommy10]

oh well, opinions are opinions. Hopefully we see an RBT made Zion soon, but I'm up for anything.

 

[ragnorokk]

I wouldn't be upset if a zoion made it to China, I am not a huge personal believer in owning the right to build a certain design. Once it exisit, it exisit as far as I'm concerned.... Customer service would probably be a damn sight better too!

You're giving me nightmares of plastic, Frankenstein Chinese ZIchONg w/ neat off-gassing heaters. To hope someone's livelihood is ripped from under them is a pretty dire thing to wish upon someone, especially since your indication is that it's a design worthy of copying, produced by one dude (well, now a team of 5 including CS/production/engineering/r+d...) with basically no safety net (I'm pretty sure S&B could take a hit like that better than a fledgling company that is just releasing their first two products on a shoestring budget)

 

[VegNVape]

Learn to breath again
Zion guidez and teachez me
Know myself better

With love
​

 

[Tommy10]

You're giving me nightmares of plastic, Frankenstein Chinese ZIchONg w/ neat off-gassing heaters. To hope someone's livelihood is ripped from under them is a pretty dire thing to wish upon someone, especially since your indication is that it's a design worthy of copying, produced by one dude (well, now a team of 5 including CS/production/engineering/r+d...) with basically no safety net (I'm pretty sure S&B could take a hit like that better than a fledgling company that is just releasing their first two products on a shoestring budget)

Your words not mine, I just simply do not believe in monopolising the right to manufacture things that are public knowledge.

 

[ragnorokk]

Your words not mine, I just simply do not believe in monopolising the right to manufacture things that are public knowledge.

Ok I don't see how it's a monopoly when you have numerous companies producing vaporizers, using a variety of heaters. If his heater was the main or only heater being used in vaporizer production, that would be monopolizing it.

I understand you feel however you feel about patent law, but it currently exists whether you believe in it or not. And within the current structure, people can often license tech; they don't have to go outlaw and rip someone's design off for profit.

I don't even know the extent of the patent, I just don't see how China copying products (or selling products claiming to be the same) helps anyone.

I do often times think that vapes are overpriced, and I see that side of the argument, but I think larger scale production is more difficult to accomplish on the cheap than the average consumer realizes.

 

[Tommy10]

Yes they can license tech, but in the east they don't seem to greatly care. Can't do much about that really. I'm not hear to tell someone they can't product and sell a vaporiser because the tech "belongs" to someone else, not something I believe in. Obvious if China were to clone RBT tech and release it as the Titan 5 with a plastic body id avoid it like the plauge, but that's a decision on the consumer end.

 

[Copacetic]

Yes they can license tech, but in the east they don't seem to greatly care. Can't do much about that really. I'm not hear to tell someone they can't product and sell a vaporiser because the tech "belongs" to someone else, not something I believe in. Obvious if China were to clone RBT tech and release it as the Titan 5 with a plastic body id avoid it like the plauge, but that's a decision on the consumer end.

Don't worry about it, other mechanisms including various legal systems, and our consciences are at work to (at least partially) protect the person who has earned the rights to the device that he himself developed.

All we have to do is buy these devices from him to do our own little bit to avoid crushing the creative and entrepreneurial spirit that provides us with so much pleasure.

I personally wouldn't even buy a perfect clone of the Mi from another source, as it would make me feel like a thief.

There's nothing stopping others coming up with their own designs and tech'.
Clones betray a singular absence of creative thought, not a culture that I personally support.

 

[GOOREGON]

There's nothing stopping others coming up with their own designs and tech'.
Clones betray a singular absence of creative thought, not a culture that I personally support.

 

[YungLeaner]

Ok I don't see how it's a monopoly when you have numerous companies producing vaporizers, using a variety of heaters. If his heater was the main or only heater being used in vaporizer production, that would be monopolizing it.

I understand you feel however you feel about patent law, but it currently exists whether you believe in it or not. And within the current structure, people can often license tech; they don't have to go outlaw and rip someone's design off for profit.

I don't even know the extent of the patent, I just don't see how China copying products (or selling products claiming to be the same) helps anyone.

I do often times think that vapes are overpriced, and I see that side of the argument, but I think larger scale production is more difficult to accomplish on the cheap than the average consumer realizes.

There's definitely no monopoly going on here, lol. Philosophical opposition to patent law is fine, I guess, if totally unfounded on both a logical and economic basis. In fact, patent laws are crucial to the obstruction of monopolies. Imagine if a small team of engineers developed a brilliant, life-changing technology, and instead of working to beat it or buying them out, Apple/Windows/Samsung just coped it and made billions. That's a huge part of what patent laws work to avoid!

China copying products for the most part only helps the consumer. I'm a bit of a libertarian capitalist myself, but it would be really disheartening to see USA electronics marginalized by Chinese products. I know the arguments against trade restrictions, etc., and I know that globalization of the economy means that some jobs are simply not feasible as a career in America any longer. The car factory worker who supports his family on the paycheck, for example, is a fossil in 2016. But the car industry is worth billions of dollars. We're talking about a relatively TINY small business here, worth a fraction of the market.


There's no reason at all to WISH for a Zion replica to be built in China, or at least no reason that operates beyond the purview of the individual. There's also no reason to have written this post, except that I am too high on a single hit of a delightful Jack Herer strain, I want a Zion, and tuesday afternoons are quite boring.

 

[Tommy10]

In a free market those with the best means of supplying a consumer will win the day, be it apple or small bussiness. Once something exists and someone knows how to construct it, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to create something and sell to someone else, seems victimless to me, our laws are irrelevant when discussing China. Anywhooooo, with a device like this I don't see it getting cloned any time soon.

 

[pakalolo]

Please take this discussion to the Lounge and get back to discussing the Zion. Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[srama21]

has anyone completed a refund request lately? i think i'm on 8 or 9 business days now