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Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by tdavie, Feb 2, 2010.

  1. fubar

    fubar Ancient and opiniated inhaler

    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    That's interesting - thanks for sharing. I have tried higher temps in the past but usually end up going back lower because of the harshness - and because I've seen blackened specks near the edges of the ABV under the loupe. I'm going to try starting around 210c instead of my usual 180c later this afternoon - will report back.
  2. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    I would love for you to use some and see your opinion and L also. It would be very interesting since you guys are so science about this. I would love to hear your thoughts.
  3. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769
    To keep the harshness down, get some boveda packs to store your herb, but use them after your ground up your herb because the moisture prevents the herb from grinding good. Also, make sure your herb is dry already so the boveda will keep the moisture accurate, and prevent mold from growing. If it has some moisture in it, there may be a chance of mold. That happened to someone on this forum, but he was the only one I've heard this happened to, so I don't know if added moisture was the exact cause. That is just my thought.

    Here's the site:
    http://bovedainc.com/solutions/herbal/

    For now, you can just drink some cold water before every hit. Also, leaving just a tiny amount of the cold water in your mouth while you inhale will keep everything cool also. You just leave the water sitting your tongue while you inhale. It is easy once you get the hang of it.
  4. fubar

    fubar Ancient and opiniated inhaler

    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Definitely did not like the taste and didn't get the sense that I was more vaked after using the same dose of the same material I've been using lately.
    Back to 180c for me - where I get the same effects but with a much more pleasant aesthetic experience while vaping - that's important to me - I stopped combusting mostly for health reasons but soon found that I enjoy the taste of lower temperature vapour.

    Interesting that it's such an individual thing and possibly related to the strains I'm getting - always worth experimenting when new material arrives.
  5. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769

    That's good you tried.

    What vaporizer did you use, and how much did you use, if I may ask?.



    180c is too low for me, that is only 356f. I wonder why certain people need low temps, while others need high temps to feel satisfied?.

    EDIT: I did more thinking, and the only reason I can think of, is that the high temps prevent them from taking in a good amount of the thc, similar to someone who just started smoking. They usually don't take in that much smoke, due to the harshness, so they don't get high, at least that was the case for me. It was when I forced myself to take in the smoke that I got ultra high for the first time. I felt like I was in a movie. The only advise I can give is use some type of water pipe to keep the harshness low, but still allowing you to take in more thc to get the powerful high that a lot of high temperature vaporist like.
  6. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    I think it depends what you need, what you want, and what you are looking for. I am a strict medical user and have zero interest in getting high. The low temps albiet not that low seem to work best for me to function fully. I like 365-375 is my guess. The only digital readout vape I have is the DV. I run it at 375 and drop to 365 as it gets harsh. On the INH I run it at about 4, SSV 11:30, solo at 3. I have no idea what the temps really are but that is comfortable for those vapes for me. No water is involved. I wonder how close the temps are in comparison to each other. Some have a longer air
    path which makes a difference. I think even the same brand vape will vary a bit in temp depending on quality control.
    luchiano likes this.
  7. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769

    Have you ever tried to use some type of water pipe to keep the harshness down so you can go higher?. You can use ice instead of water, if you want to keep more flavor, while still keeping everything cool. Also, if you don't want to use too much ice which can condense some vapors resulting in less going to you, you can use cold ice water. You would just put enough water & ice, inside the bong to barely touch the downstem. This will help keep the vapors from condensing, and being left in the water, while still keeping the vapors cool at high temperatures. Plus it filters a lot of particulate matter which is what you want if you use it for medical reasons, because even at low temperatures particulate matters is released which may cause inflammation in the lungs, which can bring other problems down the road.

    You may get more of a medical benefit if you get more cannabinoids?.
  8. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    I tried my old school bong that I still have and it didn't make a huge enough difference to be bothered. I am usually in bed which also makes water harder to use hence why I am looking forward to the PVH20. I will eventually do something in the future if I am ever convinced it helps me enough. I still had harshness with ice cold water. I think the hit through a bong pretty much makes you try to take more in.
  9. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769
    I don't know why it was still harsh?. Maybe the herb was too dry. I don't know, but try to figure it out because you're missing out on a nice experience.

    At least you tried, but again try to figure it out, and don't just leave it alone, because like I stated you still want to filter out the small particulate matter that gets released. If you are bed ridden, you want to keep those lungs clean as possible so you don't have a higher chance of getting some type sickness due to low blood flow, and having stagnant blood.
  10. fubar

    fubar Ancient and opiniated inhaler

    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I was using my usual old skool ebay sourced dual digital hotbox ceramic heater/whip so I have good control over the set point and can monitor the temperature of air from the heater element to control the extraction. The vapour is cool by the time it's travelled through a few feet of silicone tubing so that temperature is not a problem. The additional complexity of a bong doesn't seem likely to change things much as I have no problem holding a good lung full in without irritation or coughing and I've had plenty of practise - been vaping regularly for about 6 or 7 years - it just doesn't taste good and doesn't seem to work any better at higher temperatures for me.
  11. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    You are right but I have to find the right device that won't be a pain in my ass and also spill me full of water and glass shards. A horizontal no spill plexi glass type thing would be nice.
  12. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769
    This is really making me confused. I'm going to do some research to find out why some feel satisfied with low, and some with high temperatures. Don't me wrong I can deal with low temps, but it feels like something is missing if I stay at a temperature as low as 180c. I can go there, but not be done there, especially if I'm just chilling in the house and want get into my thoughts, while still relaxing. It feels like a nice effect, but not deep enough. I don't know exactly how to describe it. I guess it's the equivalent of having 1-2 beers to having 1-2 shots of hard liquor, except cannabis gets my mind activated, and not inhibiting it like alcohol.

    I guess this will be my new project on figuring out vaporization techniques, the only thing is I have to know exactly what people are using, and their techniques, as well as lifestyle. This might be fun. I wish I had some type of way to measure cannabinoid receptors, because that is what really lets you know what is happening, as well as cerebral blood flow & metabolism. Maybe some day my dream will become a reality, who knows.

    Anyway, thanks for the input.


    I just realized that I didn't ask you how did you inhale?

    If you inhale fast, and use a high temperature, then a lot of the air will still be hot by the time it gets to you. By going slow, and steady, you give the air time to stay in contact with the water to cool everything down. Inhaling slow also provides a much better extraction then going fast. Try a SLOW, and steady inhale to see if this solves the problem. Just let the vapors build up in the bong chamber, and inhale fast when you feel it is what you want.

    Also, since you are worried about glass braking go to your local headshop, and look strong plastic bongs, or ceramic if plastic isn't your things.

    A bukket bong might be good for you also since it doesn't use water to cool things down, but a wet cloth.

    http://www.bukketshop.com/


    I just realized you stated that the heat isn't a problem, but earlier you stated the high heat was harsh for you which is why you went back to lower temperatures. Can you explain to me what do you mean by harsh?
    vorrange likes this.
  13. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    It also depends on why you are vaping...I use it for certain medical reasons but you sound like you want to get into your thoughts more of what getting "stoned" is which is maybe why the higher temps is what you want. I have no interest in being stoned.

    I tried the bong a long while ago and I never do fast but not slow 45 second hits either. I do moderate draw 5-10 seconds. I don't feel the heat of my vape at all but I do get an irritated throat at times and that can be the combo of vape and sinuses dripping.
  14. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769

    Yeah, I like the thought provoking aspects of herb, but I still believe in the health effects it does for my body, which is why I want to get the most out it, and I'm trying to help others get it also, which is why I'm asking so much questions, and trying to bring all the information together to get some answers. I don't just use it to be "stoned".

    Being that the DV vaporizer is the only vape you have with temperature display, that will be what I refer to. Because the heater is so small, you have to make sure you use well ground up herb, and pack it very light so more air can come into contact with the herb then it would if it were packed half way or more, as well as keeping the bowl from cooling down too much. Filling it just 1/8-1/4 full is perfect to get the hot air to do it's job. This along with a slow inhale should prevent the irritated throat issues when using some type of water filter.

    I don't know how well it handles inhale speeds, which is why going slow is better also, it provides a more accurate result.
  15. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    I honestly don't think the heat is the issue. I think it is the dryness of vapor which is an oxymoron now that I think of it. My vapor is cooled either by longer air path, slower draw or lower temps. I have used NF vapor lung which is the same as that link in essence and I saw no difference and in that case the vapor sat in the lung first so it was cooled not unlike a bag vape. I will try your suggestion of water again but I doubt I will see a difference in my application. We will see. When I did do it I actually did it with the DV.
  16. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769
    Alright, after some thinking, and experimenting, I balled down the issues to dryness, inhalation speed, way of loading the bowl, stirring, temperature used, and the amount of puffs or bags.

    1-When you use dry herb, it will pull moisture from your mouth, and respiratory system. Some of the substances in the herb are hygroscopic which means they grab moisture from their environment, so add this the fact that you are inhaling dry air, and you can see how this can cause problems. Just taking in room temperature air can dry your mouth, and throat out, so you know dry warm air, with moisture love substances will do it even more. This is why using some boveda packs in your herb storage is needed, as it will prevent dryness, as well as keeping everything cool when the moistened vapor hits the water because water will cool the steam much quicker then it would cool dry air.

    2-The inhalation speed is important because the slower you go, the more time the hot air can stay in contact with the herb and extract as much as it can, in a quicker time. Going fast will just dilute more air to the vapor meaning more puffs to get the thc extracted.

    3-The way you load a bowl is important because when you load with chunks into the bowl, some parts will be more cooler then others meaning less extraction, and a waste of bud. Also, if you load too much, even if it's ground & evenly distributed, you will cool down the plant fibers in the middle of the herb too much meaning you need longer time to inhale to extract a good amount of the actives to get the most out of your herb.

    4-Stirring is needed to get the remaining bits out being that air is light, and only goes where there is less restriction, or else it will cool off, giving us less extraction meaning more puffs.

    5- Using a proper temperature is important to extract what you want efficiently. In the case of thc, it has been shown to start boiling efficiently as 392f, but the higher you go the more released, which means less puffs. If you go lower you can still get some thc, but you will have to do a lot of inhales. The taste will be gone by the time you get to this temperature if you start low, then go high, or the taste will be gone if you inhale at a speed that is faster then need which will cause you to take multiple inhales, and take away the flavor, leaving you with a taste that is not good causing you to stop extracting the rest of the thc.

    6-When you use a temperature of 392f or higher, you will need less puffs then you would if you started low to get the best effects. For instance, if I start at 410f, 1-2 puffs maximum, is all I need to extract most of the thc if I inhale at a nice slow, & steady rate, due to the hot air being at the a good temperature to cause the thc to boil damn near all of the thc off of the herb. The taste won't be a problem neither, because being that I inhaled everything at once, the good flavors will be inhaled along with the cannabinoids(thc,cbd,cbn), so upon exhale the good flavors will max the bad flavors. Once you add the boveda and water pipe, everything will be cool, and moist, enough to provide a nice effect that is better then smoking to me, and will convert damn near any smoker who loves the effects of smoking more then the ritual.

    For those who use bag vaporizers, specifically the volcano, it has been shown that six bags is necessary if you use a temperature setting of 396f or 7 on the knob, to extract most of the cannabinoids(thc,cbd.cbn). If you go to setting 8 or 417f then three bags are needed. Since you need more puffs with a bag vaporizer, then whips, you should load just a very small amount of fresh herb for each heat up of the bags. This will help keep the flavor from being too bad.

    Have fun.


    The vapor lung just cools the vapor down by letting it come into contact with fresh air, and the chamber holding the vapor being cool, it doesn't add moisture to it. The bukket bong uses a damp cloth to cool down the smoke, which will also add some moisture to the substances that dry out your respiratory system, and mouth.

    For now what you can do is put a piece of organic cotton balls in the path of your mouthpiece, and if you feel the need, just sprinkle a SMALL amount of water onto it so it can help with irritation. Be careful to not put too much onto the cotton, because it will become condensed and hard for air to pass through it. Just a SMALL SPRINKLE is enough. Cotton already has some moisture in, so you might not need to add anymore.

    These are good:
    http://www.rawthentic.com/filters.html
    http://femininecare.mercola.com/organic-cotton.aspx

    mod note: Back-to-back posts, merged. How many times do you need to be reminded to use Edit?
    elise likes this.
  17. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    I have a smooth flow and it works especially if I leave it in my water cup. My throat only hurts if my sinuses are really bad. I also live in a very dry climate so it hurts even if I didn't vape. For example today I can't breath at all so I only vaped early in the day cause I needed to go outside. I will later as well but it is very hard to vape when you can't breath and get O2 to your lungs and brain. Breathing is horrible today. Lucky I don't have to think or I would be screwed lol.

    I am still not sure that hypothesis is correct even though it is logical. Many have mentioned on here that dry herb is best to vape. Now you are saying moist herb which will dry after a few hits anyhow. I think there might be way to many variables to actually figure this out. Of course I am going to try to see what I think of it all as well.
  18. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769

    When I state moist herb, I'm referring herb that is not too wet, but also not too dry. Yes, the herb will dry after a few hits, but the substances that give the flavor we like are hygroscopic and will take away moisture from our respiratory system if they don't have enough in the herb. This is why bubblehash that is fresh will still hold some water, even though is rich in oils. Also, using something that has moisture in it like a water pipe or the cotton technique will also keep moisture in the vapor path. Remember, it's not just the herb that needs some moisture, but also the tool that is being used in it's vapor path. In your case, the DV mouthpiece.
  19. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    That is what the smooth flow does it moisturizes to an extent. It has ceramic or something inside and you put it in water and it absorbs it to give you the moisture. I understand your point.
  20. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769
    What is a smooth flow?
  21. Puffers

    Puffers Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    938
    Location:
    Cali, Bay Area
  22. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    Thanks puffers yep that is it. It gives my cup of water a unique taste to say the least. I don't know why I started dropping it in there...I guess because the tube they sent it in has a crack and leaks the water out. The cup of water on my nightstand is always there so convenient lol.
  23. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769
    I like that little thing.

    Dreamer, have you ever thought of getting a humidifier in your room to add some moisture to your environment?.
  24. Dreamerr

    Dreamerr Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀

    Messages:
    5,353
    Yep had one years ago but made mold issues worse. I might get one now that I am in a different climate. I am highly allergic to mold but the lady that helps me said she sees no sign of mold in hers and she just empties washes with soap and refills maybe once a week for the wash. She has never had to use vinegar and bleach. I actually looked at one at costco today but didn't buy it.
  25. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    769
    I forgot about the mold issues, so you may want to scrap that idea. Unless you can keep the humidity low enough to prevent mold from growing(40%-60%) with a programmable dehumidifier, I don't think you should use one. Just try to keep the moisture in your bud, and vapor path.

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