Vapor Path Restriction

[Buildozer]

Now I'm intrigued .
So just by funneling it down to a pin stream vapor , is basically what you guys tested .
I gonna try to squeeze my Omicron tip on the end of the Solo stem and give it a try .
So far it fits in easily inverted , but I have to fold it in the funnel down size way .
Gonna get some O-rings to give it a better seal .....

i would expect resistance w/ that test.. unless you are using it through a decent size piece... either way, test it for a little bit, i'm interested to hear how it goes. so far iv'e found larger volume piece's make for less resistance.. but its not too bad when you notice it.. just don't fight it too much, so you don't get tired.

 

[luchiano]

yesterday i was over at Stu's and we did a test to see the vapor spray pattern from the omicron tip.. since i had not checked it yet.. then we compared it to the normal vapor spray pattern.. just to be clear.. this is an omicron tip, it's no atomizer nozzle.. this is just an atomization experiment... here is the video..

cloud + omicron tip test..

wasted vapor in the name of science..

dry cloud/devastator rip w/ the omicron tip..

the rips from the omicron tip are soo smooth that it almost feels like you have lungs full of air.. IMO.. i feel i get more deeply medicated from using it.. especially when i hold it in.. it is kind of subtle though.. but i notice i vape less bowls through out the day w/ it than w/o.. maybe its just a placebo effect?? i encourage any one interested to rig up an experiment and tell me what you think.. based more on the experience than speculation.

i felt pretty much no resistance testing this w/ the cloud.

It seems that omicron tip is creating back pressure from the hole being so small, and the hot air is being forced to stay in contact with the herb a little longer then normal. This will allow more extraction. The directed airflow is most likely from the pressure being released when the vapor is exited out the hole, and lower the air pressure forcing some of the vapor out of the area where the pressure was high. Plus the vapor is cooler, so it will be more dense, meaning the air can move it along in a more controlled way. Think of how a fan takes a large mass of air, condenses it, and it comes out it a more direct form.

When there was no restriction, more of the pressure came from your lung power with very little back pressure, so it was less directed. In other words the restriction is helping extract a little more vapor due to the different forms of pressure , while keeping it cool due to a lot of the heat being absorbed by the actual omicron tip.

Cool experiment.

 

[Stu]

This is the (albeit crude) setup we were using. It's just a couple of adapters with an Omicron mouthpiece cut down and inserted to form a choke point.

Looking down the top:

 

[Buildozer]

i think you pretty much got it Luchiano.. actually you've pretty much had it from the start IMO, for the most part.. and i personally feel that all that (AIR REGULATION IN THE EXTRACTION CHAMBER) is a good thing, IMO, its not a bad thing.. but i also believe there Could be some atomization occurring to some degree, using this make shift atomizer.

i feel, whether we are talking about air going through a fan or vapor through an omicron tip.. a fan breaks the air up.. so does the omicron tip IMO.. it seems for it to be a more directed clean stream, it has to be broken up some.. if you check the video the vapor from the cloud w/o the tip, started to expand fast into ribbons.. and the vapor going through the tip didn't expand nearly as much, and it stood more directed. i think that is proof it is broken down some.

 

[poonman]

Hey Stu ,
You gotta try this on your Solo .
After playing around with it , I was able to stretch the Omicron tip over the Solo stem .
It does offer a smoother pin point hit . I did it on level 6 dry .
I also found it to be ' Less ' resistance on the draw , in fact , an easier inhale .

I'm pretty vaked already , so idk about ' higher ' , but def . smoother .
But I like it enough to recommend it on the Solo thread .

 

[Buildozer]

Hey Stu ,
You gotta try this on your Solo .
After playing around with it , I was able to stretch the Omicron tip over the Solo stem .
It does offer a smoother pin point hit . I did it on level 6 dry .
I also found it to be ' Less ' resistance on the draw , in fact , an easier inhale .

I'm pretty vaked already , so idk about ' higher ' , but def . smoother .
But I like it enough to recommend it on the Solo thread .

i did it w/ the MFLB i put the tip over the stem and i had similar results. i think a restriction after the vapor path is an interesting thing to look into. steady air flow regulation through the extraction chamber seems like a plus to me.

 

[luchiano]

i think you pretty much got it Luchiano.. actually you've pretty much had it from the start IMO, for the most part.. and i personally feel that all that (AIR REGULATION IN THE EXTRACTION CHAMBER) is a good thing, IMO, its not a bad thing.. but i also believe there Could be some atomization occurring to some degree, using this make shift atomizer.

i feel, whether we are talking about air going through a fan or vapor through an omicron tip.. a fan breaks the air up.. so does the omicron tip IMO.. it seems for it to be a more directed clean stream, it has to be broken up some.. if you check the video the vapor from the cloud w/o the tip, started to expand fast into ribbons.. and the vapor going through the tip didn't expand nearly as much, and it stood more directed. i think that is proof it is broken down some.

It might be breaking it down, but I think more of the direct airflow is coming from the air being cooler. The hotter the air the more "wild" it is, due to expanding, and the cooler the air, more you can "tame" it, due to it being more condensed. Either way, as long as your happy, that's all that matters.

This method reminds me of the targard filters that are used for cigarettes. They cool the air, and filter the smoke, by using small holes that create a whirlwind effect. Here's the site:

http://www.targard.com/

 

[poonman]

I will have to try the mflb also ....tomorrow .
I still wanna try the tip thru my small bubbler , and see if there is restriction thru water .

 

[Buildozer]

It might be breaking it down, but I think more of the direct airflow is coming from the air being cooler. The hotter the air the more "wild" it is, due to expanding, and the cooler the air, more you can "tame" it, due to it being more condensed. Either way, as long as your happy, that's all that matters.

This method reminds me of the targard filters that are used for cigarettes. They cool the air, and filter the smoke, by using small holes that create a whirlwind effect. Here's the site:

http://www.targard.com/

i think its hard to say either way.. whether it is because its cooler or broken up some.. or both?? good point though. thanks for your input in this thread.. i appreciate it.

 

[Timothy]

I really wanted to get to this thread earlier but work has been hectic.


I do not want to hurt anyones feelings on this subject but I have to speak the truth, and the truth is there is no possible way that "The so-called Atomizer" in the "Sublimator" is reducing the particle size in the vapor output. There are many ways to produce these results in a lab, a couple such as filtration and laser ablation. These results would have to be viewed through an electron microscope. So needless to say you can not reduce the vapor size with any hole visible to the naked eye.

Enrico says in one of his Youtube videos that the hole in his "Atomizer" is 1.7 millimeters, well in a typical humidifier the vapor droplet size averages between 2-5 microns. It would take 1,000 microns to equal 1mm so you can clearly see that he is not creating smaller vapor particles with his invention.

Now I do not claim to be an expert on everything so I will give credit where it is due. I did have an idea as to what might be occurring with the sublimator to be creating a milkier vapor: #1 is higher heat, and #2 is maybe this 1.7mm hole or "atomizer" has created the optimal restriction or drag in the downstem of the bong to slowdown airflow which may allow heat to linger around the herb longer, optimizing penetration of the material, hence giving you a thicker hit.

 

[Buildozer]

thanks for the input Timothy.. i appreciate it.. definitely no feelings hurt over here haha..

I really wanted to get to this thread earlier but work has been hectic.

I do not want to hurt anyones feelings on this subject but I have to speak the truth, and the truth is there is no possible way that "The so-called Atomizer" in the "Sublimator" is reducing the particle size in the vapor output. There are many ways to produce these results in a lab, a couple such as filtration and laser ablation. These results would have to be viewed through an electron microscope. So needless to say you can not reduce the vapor size with any hole visible to the naked eye.

Enrico says in one of his Youtube videos that the hole in his "Atomizer" is 1.7 millimeters, well in a typical humidifier the vapor droplet size averages between 2-5 microns. It would take 1,000 microns to equal 1mm so you can clearly see that he is not creating smaller vapor particles with his invention.

Now I do not claim to be an expert on everything so I will give credit where it is due. I did have an idea as to what might be occurring with the sublimator to be creating a milkier vapor: #1 is higher heat, and #2 is maybe this 1.7mm hole or "atomizer" has created the optimal restriction or drag in the downstem of the bong to slowdown airflow which may allow heat to linger around the herb longer, optimizing penetration of the material, hence giving you a thicker hit.

that's pretty much what Luchiano said right from the start.. it makes A LOT of sense.. i have accepted that as what is going on.. i was still hanging on to some hope of the vapor breaking apart some.. no big deal though.. after discussing it, i think i can accept it and let the dream go haha.. i'm glad i learned some things from this.. i do see the restriction in the vapor path to be an interesting thing.. i have been messing w/ it for ~2 weeks.. i'm gonna keep on messing w/ for the time being.. i'm liking it.

 

[Timothy]

What you are doing is no lost cause Buildozer, you could just stumble upon the perfect conditions for thicker vapor just by restricting airflow in an optimal way.

 

[Buildozer]

What you are doing is no lost cause Buildozer, you could just stumble upon the perfect conditions for thicker vapor just by restricting airflow in an optimal way.

thanks Timothy.. i feel the same way.. i'm glad this discussion got us Here.. i'm going to start a new thread in today about Vapor Path Restriction.. it seems more appropriate.

 

[Tweek]

Have you guys tried heating the area of the restriction, similar to the sublimator? Be interesting to see that make a difference.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

another aspect of the Atomizer is that it is as hot as the bowl where extraction is being done, so the vapor will be expanded and mix better with the air flowing through.

10 to 15 minutes to warm up according to Enrico. about the same as the Cloud.

 

[Timothy]

It would be great to have temperature readings from the Atomizer point when these hit the hands of board members. My guess is that the temperature will not be that high due to the location of the heater sitting high above, infact the only way I see it getting heated is perhaps when somone takes a hit, which will cause hot air to pass over the atomizer. Possibly then it might rise in temperature, but I still dont see how this will benefit considering the next step of the vapor would be entering a huge open chamber of cool air in the tube/bong part of the Sublimator.

 

[Buildozer]

actually i did try that the other day.. i discussed the results w/ another member for a little bit, but i didn't report because there was nothing positive to report w/ my experiment..

Buildozer said:

"i had a question about the atomizer.. in a few parts of a few videos i saw.. mainly the torch heated part.. he makes it clear that it is important for the atomizer to also be heated up.. i was wondering why that was? how would it preform if it was cold? i assume being heated up at least helps keep it clog free....."​

​

i asked this message over a week ago in the sublimator thread.. no answer. so i PM'd PV and got this PM a week later..

"Hi Buildozer,
Yes the stainless steel parts including the atomizer must reach thermal equilibrium before use in order for the process to work properly. Has to do with the atomizer needing to be slightly hotter than the gases passing through it.
Cheers,
PV"


this led me to do the heated restriction test to see for my self.. i found it was unpractical to keep the restriction hotter than the incoming air. the restriction seemed to cool down too fast. i used a glass restriction for this test, and heated it w/ a torch.. also i left the whip on the vape to get the bowl hot("thermal equalibrim"), to better mimic the conditions.. even smaller restriction than the omicron tip also..

it seemed the only way to do it was to have the restriction re-heated each hit.. or in the case of the sublimator, i figure, leaving the apollo on for some time between each hit,, to effectively keep the 'atomizer' hotter than the vapor.. not sure if that could really be accomplished though.

EDIT: it seems the 'atomizers' on the e-nail would definitely be hotter than the air coming in, being that they are on the heat element. for some reason i just cant see it being the same w/ the apollo.

 

[Tweek]

There seems to be a higher presence of raw oils in the vapor coming out of the sublimator. Would explain why you get so much reclaim I think. Perhaps that is the key to the flavour difference at least.

Edit: Also keep in mind, that there appears to be an convection type effect happening from the top heater. Wonder if there is a way you can replicate this?

 

[Timothy]

Sublimating or not, this device is hitting a market not hit with any other device I can think of. The fact that it can do concentrates/oils, and herbs in one device is great. And the fact that the Metal/Acrylic construction appears to make it very sturdy which will be nice to use around friends. It clearly produces thick vapor which is a plus for any device in my book.


I think people are going to generally like it, but taste aficionados might have a problem with the metallic design causing flavor degradation if they are used to devices like the Cloud and other mostly glass designs.

Edit: I think the amount of reclaim will depend on the individuals usage, you can clearly see that Enrico and friends are not your "typical" users, with 5 g dabs and such.

 

[Tweek]

I'm definitely approaching it as "Does this taste and medicate differently than any other unit I have used. And is it worth $499.99". Sublimation won't even be a consideration. That being said, the science talk is fun.

 

[stickstones]

dozer...please don't start another thread. This one is going perfectly. We could change the name if we need to, but this is the kind of discussion we were looking for in the sublimation thread...good stuff all around!

Timothy...thanks for your posts and sharing your knowledge with us. I don't know shit, so the smaller molecular explanation works on me...I only have one person saying it's so and one saying it's not. In the end, I just wanna see if there is a difference in the effect first, then I will care about what is going on. If it works then I'll be hollering at you to ask how!

I believe the Apollo unit heats up the lower atomizer due to conduction and nothing else.

 

[Buildozer]

There seems to be a higher presence of raw oils in the vapor coming out of the sublimator. Would explain why you get so much reclaim I think. Perhaps that is the key to the flavour difference at least.

Edit: Also keep in mind, that there appears to be an convection type effect happening from the top heater. Wonder if there is a way you can replicate this?

i am using a convection vaporizer?? not sure what you mean.. you mean the supposed cyclone effect? even if i could do that.. or if theirs does.. i don't see that changing too much w/ the experiment results. i am also using the help of the conduction from 'thermal equalibrium'.

w/ the simple restriction experiement, iv'e been able to get pretty powerful flavor w/ smaller (~.1) loads and higer temps..

 

[Tweek]

Forget it, I am baked right now. Not making any sense

 

[Buildozer]

dozer...please don't start another thread. This one is going perfectly. We could change the name if we need to, but this is the kind of discussion we were looking for in the sublimation thread...good stuff all around!.....

Right On Sticks.. can you Please change the title to 'Vapor Path Restriction' instead.. because that's where i would like to go w/ the thread. thanks! i was just about to hit post for a new thread. you caught me just in time.

 

[stickstones]

Done...I hope everyone finds their way back here!