Discontinued Thermovape Cera

[OF]

Any bluster about 'I know enough about ___ that I can't be questioned until you prove you have bigger science balls than me' is exactly the opposite of promoting factual data transfer or scientific discovery.

Or perhaps it's to create a digital tribal village with one witch doctor who can't be questioned about the common cold until you prove that you can also speak to nature spirits and make fire.

"This is not usually a published spec, it has to be determined experimentally. It's what causes 'voltage sag under load'. And "under load" is what we care about.

Are you really ready to discuss this fine point of Circuit Analysis? I'm ready here, having taught it more than a few times over the years......."

I agree that the practical behavior of all of these battery types in the Cera has to be proved experimentally. The short answer would appear to be that nobody here has done such experiments. There's nothing wrong with that. You not having the data I want is no indictment of your big sciency balls.

What I am looking for is DATA. Not 'Take my word for it' and certainly not 'You must be able to prove you have more knowledge of electrical minutia before I will agree that data is any more valid than my stated opinion'.

OK, I get it now. You don't really follow what I'm saying, all you want to do it attack me since I'm not giving you what you feel entitled to. Not uncommon.

I asked "Are you really ready to discuss this fine point of Circuit Analysis?" Do you even know what Tevenin (or Norton, the other way about) is about? I seriously doubt it or you wouldn't carry on so.

I've also said I don't think it's realistic to expect them to publish their propitiatory data ever, and still don't. To do so would not please 'the bean counters' you know. That data has financial value.

Instead you resort to BS about witch doctors?

I've told you TV tested extensively (I've done some less exhaustive and less formal testing too of course), so I hope you understand how saying "The short answer would appear to be that nobody here has done such experiments" might be seen as calling me a liar at some level? FWIW, I'm confident that was the intent. You've made it very clear to me you think I'm hiding the truth from you.

This topic has been discussed in great detail many times before. It's in this thread and the former one, as well as the other TV threads. You agreed to read up on that stuff, I assume you did, did it not make sense then?

Good luck on getting the answer you seem to think is due you.

OF

 

[pakalolo]

^^^With absolutely no offense to OF, this is exactly the type of NOT SCIENCE by an authority figure that lets a lot of people wander around saying ignorant isht like 'glass is really a slow moving liquid'.

If you feel the need to prefix "no offense" to something then you are about to give offense. Don't do that, it breaks our"Be nice." rule.

Now look, I disagree, essentially calling me a liar is offensive.

If you think he's calling you a liar, the Report button is at the bottom of the post. A hostile response is provocative and disrupts the harmony of the board, to use phrasing from the rules. Calling his post BS is just as offensive as anything he posted.

There's more rule-breaking from both of you but I won't bother quoting any of it. Instead, you're both on notice that the next hint of hostility between you two in the public forums gets the offender a warning point.

 

[JoeKickass]

With absolutely no offense to OF, this is exactly the type of NOT SCIENCE by an authority figure that lets a lot of people wander around saying ignorant isht like 'glass is really a slow moving liquid'.

You had some good points about strict scientific process but glass does have some properties of a liquid

It's obvious that a lot of people here have at least some basic machining knowledge. I thought maybe somebody also had an ammeter and a pen... rig some wire leads for my ammeter to go through these vent holes... (There is no such thing as 'too technical' when talking to an engineer)

Then you have machinists working with electrical engineering tools, measuring battery current through vent holes, etc.

Battery graphs are constant load (or should be) but since we're heating a coil of wire (resistance changes with temp) you can only compare graphs to other graphs and see if one is generally better, any extrapolated runtimes will be very rough estimates.

With so many variables, OF's subjective opinion could easily be worth more than a scientific one


Edit: oops srry paka not trying to fan the flames, just trying to be objective

 

[Soflo]

Just wanted to say I just got off the phone with "zeki" he is a pleasure to deal with!
I didn't even have a problem with a device, but they sure do have some amazing customer service!
Thanks again TeT, can't wait for my Ti cera to arrive!

 

[Cheerful Dub]

I am not sure this will be relevant, pending the supposed design changes to the LQ cart, but I am once again reminded of advice from OF regarding core design.

Performance on the LQ cart had degraded to relatively nonexistent vapor, with extreme core body heat production using the same power and draw pattern. What little vapor produced was very hot and harsh, unfit for consumption.

The ceramic was clearly saturated, to the point that after adding a few more drops of smoke juice and capping and drawing, it would be lining the chamber walls and shot up the mouthpiece, not unlike the result of a half-loaded EO cart.

I thought of the definition of insanity and how I had just always kept dripping juice one way since day one. I thought of the reclaim from the black-lagoon drifting out the bottom of the EO cart during the iso soak. Eureka!

I flipped the LQ core over on some paper towels and let it cool down to the point where I could "shotgun" it in my mouth, slowly blowing fresh air "backwards" through the intake holes. Mind you I am still hooked on the nicotine so without a functioning secondary cart there is no "well, just stop using it and clean/dry/soak it for 6 hours..." although I'm sure this makes me sound like a haggard junkie

Regardless, lot of semi-pungent e-juice remnants came out to the surface ceramic. I think this juice had collected past the "active" area and was actively blocking fresh air flow but not dripping out of the bottom intakes or onto the body threads. Interestingly enough it did not taste bad to vape off whatsoever.

Long story short the cart now produces and tastes exactly like it did on day one, it is just slightly stained from the Johnson Creek juices I've been using. Also that slurping sound is gone, which obviously makes a lot of sense in retrospect. I think I will just store my LQ cart upside down in the little jar from now on Ayoooo

 

[OF]

I flipped the LQ core over on some paper towels and let it cool down to the point where I could "shotgun" it in my mouth, slowly blowing fresh air "backwards" through the intake holes.

Long story short the cart now produces and tastes exactly like it did on day one, it is just slightly stained from the Johnson Creek juices I've been using. Also that slurping sound is gone, which obviously makes a lot of sense in retrospect.

First, very cool, thanks for the positive report, I'm sure other folks will put it to good use.

I'm a bit unclear on the 'blowing backwards' part. Don't you mean blowing into the ports and out the top past the ceramic plate? I guess I'm thinking 'that's normal airflow'....you may be thinking 'I'd normally blow in the other end'? That is I think you're blowing the collected junk past the insides and out the big hole? The air goes the same direction, just upside down (gravity assist) and with more gusto? Neat, simple and effective.

Too bad you'd need asbestos lips to do it with oil, lots more guys would love a fix there.

Also interesting that the taste didn't suffer, confirms my feeling that the temperatures low down are really too cool to matter much.

Thanks again. Another brick of understanding for our wall.

OF

 

[darkrom]

I sent my cera out yesterday, lets hope the third time is a charm?

To be honest I'm hoping to get a whole new battery tube portion. I'll know when I get it back.

 

[OF]

To be honest I'm hoping to get a whole new battery tube portion. I'll know when I get it back.

I think that's basically what happens. They have to strip it down to get to the strap. Down to the bare tube. Then a new screwplate with the strap attached gets put in, the strap pasted to the inside wall and the base ring (already tinned in the right spot) gets epoxy coated and pressed into place. Then the final connection is made from inside once it's glued in (but glue not set yet). The strap is captive, holding the plate and ring with it. It has to be serviced as a unit.

I got a great show when Tim went to work on mine. As it was a Beta unit, they'd used some serious epoxy on the end ring, the sort they glue steel bolts into rock and concrete with. Lots of torch action, lots of yanking, lots of bad words. Tim bent the lever tool they had made and had to make another, stronger one. Several guys took turns, it was a great show. The guy you'd have voted least likely to do it won! Don't sell little guys short when they're mad.......

Except for the tube itself, it's a total rebuild. Has to be I think.

OF

 

[darkrom]

Good to hear OF.

I'm excited to have it back. I'm going to keep my pax for the forseeable future since I already own it. If I'm REALLY hard up for cash I'd sell it, but not after 2-3 months of a working cera.

I miss my cera

 

[OF]

Good to hear OF.

I'm excited to have it back. I'm going to keep my pax for the forseeable future since I already own it. If I'm REALLY hard up for cash I'd sell it, but not after 2-3 months of a working cera.

I miss my cera

Cera misses you. You know that. They have to keep them in little locked cages over night there (one of the reasons they're so big on fast turn around....). Some of them get so homesick they try to make a run for it......

A guy does need a backup vape in life, unfortunately. Got to have alternatives to blazing.......

"This too shall pass, Brother, this too shall pass".

OF

 

[Haywood]

If anybody has a good *technical* explanation for why some specific batteries are the very very best, I would love to hear it.

You're missing one clause in your question: "for our particular usage".

There is no one battery that is the best for all usages. You have to look at what the use characteristics are. In this case, we have a gizmo (the Cera) that wants to draw between 4 and 5 Amps. It works best when a fresh battery is used, because the voltage will be the highest (in this case, about 4 Volts under the Cera's load). As the battery is used up, the voltage it supplies goes down (and if the load doesn't change; the Cera's core doesn't) the current (Amps) also goes down. Voltage and current going down mean the power to the core is going down. So as you use up the charge in the battery, the power going to the core is going down. Now the Cera core is designed to work well within a given range of power. If you give it too much, you'll burn out the windings; if you give it too little, it just won't work (it won't get hot enough). The lower limit for a Cera LL core working well is in the neighborhood of 3.2 to 3.3 Volts. It will still heat up being supplied below 3.3 volts, but not enough to work well, just enough to confuse the hell out of you. (I.e., "It's getting hot, why don't I get any vapor?"). This last point is probably what most are missing when trying to evaluate which battery is "best".

So knowing this, one can interpret the discharge curves and figure out which battery will be "best" for use with the Cera. If you look at the curves for the 2250 and 2900 Panasonics, you'll see that all that extra capacity the 2900 has over the 2250 is at the bottom of the range, from 3.2 Volts down. That's fine for some uses, but not for our Ceras. All that extra capacity is worthless to us. If you're using the battery in a flashlight, however, which may work just fine down to 2.75 Volts, that extra capacity is worthwhile, and in that usage, the 2900 is a better choice. With the Cera LL core, it's pretty well a dead heat (pun intended) between the 2250 and the 2900; at least with regard to their discharge curves. I prefer the 2250 for a handful of reasons, but none of them have anything to do with which will work better in a Cera.

As to why TET chose one battery at one point and the other at another, you'll have to ask them. It's not because one was better than the other for use in the Cera, so I guess it must be because of availability or cost or some other business decision, but I have no idea; I don't get to sit in on TET's decisions...

Haywood

Edit: I originally answered this before reading the insanity that followed. A couple of additional things. The resistance of the wire used in the TET cores actually doesn't change much as it heats up. That's one of the more subtle rewards we get thanks to TET's compulsive research when they design something. Also, I still don't know if the Orb sourced 2900s that TET sells have a protection circuit board in them or not. If they do, they're 10% less wonderful than the 2250s when used in a Cera; if they don't, they're equivalent in our Ceras. The 2250s have significantly lower internal resistance than the 2900s, though not quite as low as an AW 1600mAh IMR18650; all three use different types of chemistry. I'm not going to explain the significance of internal resistance with regard to a 4 Amp load, you can research it if you're interested. The 3100mAh and 3400mAh cells are not suitable for use with the Cera, as they are not rated to supply enough current (Amps).

 

[Flightrisk]

I sent my cera out yesterday, lets hope the third time is a charm?

To be honest I'm hoping to get a whole new battery tube portion. I'll know when I get it back.

Third time????


Are you serious??

Who else here has sent it in multiple times?

Im on my first.




You really should demand a new unit, and if they are worthy they will throw in an extra cart of your choice for free.

 

[Haywood]

So, like OF, I'm waiting to hear from those of you that are having trouble with combusting in a Cera LL core. Have you tried hand crumbling your load instead of grinding it, and if so, did that help to prevent combusting?

(Just wanted to ask since a bunch of us patted themselves on the back already, and discussed who's idea it was first, but no one with the problem has actually chimed in to let us know if our proposed solution actually solved the problem).

*sigh*

[huge snip of almost everything in your message]

(There is no such thing as 'too technical' when talking to an engineer)

So this a reply to your message with the battery curve for a battery that TET never shipped. It's not your fault; for all the wonderful things about TET, their web site has never been near the top of the list. They have lots of obsolete stuff still on their site, and it's still hard to find your way around it.

Since you have discovered battery discharge curves, here's a more relevant curve for you to peruse. It compares the Panasonic CGR18650CH (the 2250mAh one) and the Panasonic NCR18650PD (the 2900mAh one). These are the two battery types that TET has shipped, and the ones we've all been talking about. The 2250 is the RED curve and the 2900 is the BLUE curve. The brand names displayed in the graph are different, but these are the two exact Panasonic cells we're talking about. (In fact, Orb calls the 2250 battery an "IMR" when it actually isn't; similar chemistry, but different, and not IMR).

A few things to note. Assuming you believe me that the Cera LL core won't provide vapor when the battery is below 3.2 Volts, note that both batteries cross the 3.2V point at exactly the same time. Meaning that they provide exactly the same runtime on our Ceras. And this is for the unprotected 2900mAh battery; if TET is actually supplying the protected version of the 2900mAh battery, you can drop the blue curve 0.1V across its entire discharge curve. Also, if you take a close look at the beginning of the discharge curves, you'll note that for the first 25% of the battery's discharge, the 2250 cell is providing significantly more voltage. That's because the 2250 cell has significantly less internal resistance than the 2900 cell. (Yeah, I know I said I wouldn't get into internal resistance, but after the interchange you had with OF, I thought you might like to see one practical benefit for a battery having low internal resistance).

Here is a set of curves with the Panasonic NCR18650B (the 3400mAh) battery versus the Panasonic CGR18650CH (the 2250mAh one). Again, the 2250 is in RED and the 3400 is in BLUE. I'm not going to comment on what these curves tell you, but hope that now you'll be able to tell me. I hope that with what we've been discussing you'll know why we feel that the 3100 and 3400 mAh Panasonics are NOT a good choice for use with Cera...

Haywood

mod note: Please avoid back-to-back posts, use Edit instead. Two posts merged.

 

[aj0125]

So, like OF, I'm waiting to hear from those of you that are having trouble with combusting in a Cera LL core. Have you tried hand crumbling your load instead of grinding it, and if so, did that help to prevent combusting?

Still trying to find time for more thorough testing. The few bowls I have tried range from hand crumbled to medium sized pieces from large hole grinder. So far results are pretty good, no combustion with a coarser grind, but having some trouble getting the whole bowl vaped without stirring. More to come after more testing...

 

[shark sandwich]

Does anyone have an LG D1 to try? It looks like it may work well. The higher curves in the chart below are the three amp measurements. My LL core measures 1.2 Ohms, that's about 3.5 Amps at 4 volts. The 2250's work great for me, but the D1 looks like it may last me all day.

 

[nopartofme]

So, like OF, I'm waiting to hear from those of you that are having trouble with combusting in a Cera LL core. Have you tried hand crumbling your load instead of grinding it, and if so, did that help to prevent combusting?

(Just wanted to ask since a bunch of us patted themselves on the back already, and discussed who's idea it was first, but no one with the problem has actually chimed in to let us know if our proposed solution actually solved the problem).

Difficult circumstances have necessitated a cessation of supply replenishment over here for the time being, unfortunately. Just giving a heads up on why I'll have no results to offer for a while, after I called extra attention to it in the first place!

I will say that I'm excited to try a chunkier grind, or "finger grind". I'd spent so much time getting to know and love the MFLB as a part of getting to know and love vaporizing, that it hadn't really 'clicked' for me to play with that aspect of the process. My grind routine for the MFLB had become a part of vaporizing in general in my mind, seeing as Cera's only my second vape. So I will say, thanks very much to Quetzal, Yeee Buddy! (I love your username ), AJ, Haywood, and OF, for waking me up to yet another variable to play with at the very least! Makes me realize I haven't yet fully explored the possibilities brought about by the power of convection!

 

[YeeeBuddy]

I can't really experiment at the moment all my herb is already sawdust. I am curious to hear what you guys find. I personally like the vapor production from the fine grind, but will not be recomending it in the future. I wasn't really having combustion problems more trying to help those that are . I have combusted maybe 3 out of the 100 or so bowls I've done.

 

[Hyess]

Can't wait to get it in mail!!!

Is there a metal screen that could be Installed on cera that would prevent herb particles/dust going into mouth/lungs?

 

[YeeeBuddy]

Nope the stock cap/mp does a amazing job at not letting anything get through. You could put a screen on top of the bowl If you wish though.

 

[Hyess]

where can one get a perfectly sized screen to Put on top of the bowl?

 

[BLAZING OG]

Since your are the battery expert and doubt that TET checked out Cera battery options. Why don't you just go out and buy a grip of batteries yourself and do some testing instead of ranting. Your comments basically accuses TET of not caring enough about the Cera to research batteries that work best for this device.

Test the batteries yourself, gather your DATA, as you have let everyone know you are THE battery expert. Einstein.

Well put, some people are never happy!!!!

OK, I get it now. You don't really follow what I'm saying, all you want to do it attack me since I'm not giving you what you feel entitled to. Not uncommon.

I asked "Are you really ready to discuss this fine point of Circuit Analysis?" Do you even know what Tevenin (or Norton, the other way about) is about? I seriously doubt it or you wouldn't carry on so.

I've also said I don't think it's realistic to expect them to publish their propitiatory data ever, and still don't. To do so would not please 'the bean counters' you know. That data has financial value.

Instead you resort to BS about witch doctors?

I've told you TV tested extensively (I've done some less exhaustive and less formal testing too of course), so I hope you understand how saying "The short answer would appear to be that nobody here has done such experiments" might be seen as calling me a liar at some level? FWIW, I'm confident that was the intent. You've made it very clear to me you think I'm hiding the truth from you.

This topic has been discussed in great detail many times before. It's in this thread and the former one, as well as the other TV threads. You agreed to read up on that stuff, I assume you did, did it not make sense then?

Good luck on getting the answer you seem to think is due you.

OF

I thought........ I....... was in....... the twilight zone!!!!!!!!
Thanks OF!

 

[Haywood]

Does anyone have an LG D1 to try? It looks like it may work well. The higher curves in the chart below are the three amp measurements. My LL core measures 1.2 Ohms, that's about 3.5 Amps at 4 volts. The 2250's work great for me, but the D1 looks like it may last me all day.

Yes, the LG D1 is indeed a nice cell, but...

You may not have noticed that the voltage of the D1 is 4.35V, not 3.7V. The chemistry of the D1 cell is different. It does have great capacity, but it also has quite a bit of internal resistance. Note how much and how fast the voltage drops when the load is applied. In our case (using it in a Cera), that also means the battery itself is going to get a lot hotter than the 2250 does. However, because it does drop off so much under load, you probably don't have to worry about it burning out the Cera core.

You also may not have realized that you're going to need a dedicated charger for the D1 battery. You can't use a charger designed for all the other LiIon batteries in the world. Not sure if a standard LiIon charger just won't work, or if it just won't charge the battery to anywhere near full capacity, or if it will blow up the battery. I do know that LG specifies that you use ONLY their approved charger...

I'm surprised to hear that your Cera LL core measures 1.2Ω. Are you pretty confident in your measurement? The Cera LL cores are reported to be well under 1Ω, more like 0.7Ω as I vaguely recall. It's pretty difficult to measure resistance in the 1Ω range with any accuracy without a very good meter and very good test methods. (Not trying to imply anything, just curious).

Haywood

 

[Haywood]

Well, OF has been saying the same thing for as long as I can remember, and it's advice that I completely agree with ("just buy the batteries that TET recommends; they know what they're doing").

That said, there are many of us that like to feel we can do better, or just want to experiment. Not just with batteries, but with all the different facets of vaping. Remember all the discussions about modifying Evolutions and different power sources and, well, almost everything. A large part of what we all enjoy here is the experimenting and tinkering. (I really shouldn't speak for anyone but myself, though I think in this case it's true for many of us).

 

[OF]

Is there a metal screen that could be Installed on cera that would prevent herb particles/dust going into mouth/lungs?

Let me second YB's excellent point. There's a 'hidden trap' in the top of the unit. Vapor is forced to take 4 right angle bends through fairly narrow gaps to get to you. Along the way basically all the debris and a lot of the heat is trapped out. Pretty amazing tech, really, you can see the development of it in earlier products. More over, through clever sizing and 'play' between parts it's largely self cleaning as well! If you insist on a screen too, it's sized so standard 1/2 inch screens fit correctly.

I'm surprised to hear that your Cera LL core measures 1.2Ω. Are you pretty confident in your measurement? The Cera LL cores are reported to be well under 1Ω, more like 0.7Ω as I vaguely recall. It's pretty difficult to measure resistance in the 1Ω range with any accuracy without a very good meter and very good test methods. (Not trying to imply anything, just curious).

Excellent advice, as usual.

Lots of small errors (in the fraction of an Ohm range) start to really matter with low resistance. First order correction is to just 'measure' the added resistance of leads and such by shorting the probes. You typically get half an Ohm or so showing that's obviously not there, start by subtracting this from all other readings and you're closer to right. Even then you have contact resistance issues. Try reading the resistance of say a teaspoon. Notice how you get a range? Same problem exists with the single resistance measure you're taking.

The 'best way' is to measure the voltage drop on the device when a known current is flowing (two 'readings' really) and use Ohm's Law to calculate the answer. This is sometimes called 'the four point system' since four contacts (two for current, two for Voltage measurement) are needed. This removes most of the external issues. Doing this I measure .66 to .83 Ohms on the assortment of carts I have. I have a custom EO cart Tim wound with maximum possible resistance, a one of a kind for sure (at least for now). Tim jammed as much wire in the heater as physically possible, this was the highest of four tries. It's 1.33 Ohms by my measure, although it's reported as 1.2 Ohms by a couple VV heads I have (that still won't drive it because it's too low a resistance).

Therefore I think I can safely say nobody (else) really has a 1.2 Ohm cart.

Remember all the discussions about modifying Evolutions and different power sources and, well, almost everything. A large part of what we all enjoy here is the experimenting and tinkering. (I really shouldn't speak for anyone but myself, though I think in this case it's true for many of us).

I'm all for trying something new if it could be a safe improvement for the device. I agree that tinkering with devices is second nature for many people on this forum. It is one of the reasons the Cera is so great. I think I will watch and wait and see what super things you experimental types come up with. TIA.

Boy, ain't that the simple truth. From one perspective, 'it's a guy thing', we really can't help ourselves. I like to think it's in the genes? Otherwise we'd be in caves, wearing skins, and hunting with the same silly stone tools our great grandfathers used? So often it's the foolish malcontents that just don't know how good they have it that move us all forward. Sadly, many more waste their time in the quest.

The ugly truth is for every prospector that 'strikes it rich' in the gold fields, hundreds go broke. It's always been so I think, but still we're driven on. Beats living in caves I think.

OF

 

[YeeeBuddy]

Honestly give the stock cap/MP a chance once you try it you will see theirs no need for a screen. I actually tried the screen thing thinking it would hold my herb in place better and didn't like it at all, also i couldn't look at my herb every couple hits lol I am OCD about this i dunno why. I use a super fine grind almost like sawdust and have never had issues with crap getting in my mouth.