OF
Well-Known Member
Except Cera Ti EO of course........
Or do you claim they're using grade 5 as well?
OF
Discontinued The Persei Vaporizer for herbs and concentrates.
- Thread starter THC SCIENTIFIC
- Start date
Except Cera Ti EO of course........
Or do you claim they're using grade 5 as well?
OF
nopartofme
Over the falls, in a barrel
That's very much a possibility and you shouldn't suggest the idea is outlandish. Intuition rarely matches up with what we find out about the world... I enjoy the Adams explanation...
Douglas Adams said:
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PhotoRider
Diagnosed with level 11 G.A.S.
Guys, aluminum is linked to many health concerns. Antiperspirant, cooking pans etc.
There are two directions to come from...
1. Until I know its safe, not going to do it.
2. Until I know its unsafe I'm using it.
We can argue which is right or wrong, but one can go either way because that's a personal decision.
It is a fair point to say, unless I know its good, will not do it. Also, simply put what is wrong with saying less is better? Why use something if you don't need to? If TI grade 2 works and grade 5 has other elements why take the risk?
It could be years before you know. My mom died of breast cancer caused from medication she was on. The year after her death they proved the effects of that drug and pulled it from the market...
So lets just think about this. If I was her when the doc gave me this and I asked is it safe and the answer was "there is no scientific evidence that states it is harmful", I would ask if there is data to prove its safe...
Your choice. Tobacco was safe for years.
Not saying I agree or disagree with anybody, but I respect peoples right to decide which way they go w/o having to justify it. However, its a valid point not to make claims w/o backup. I just think the data is too grey right now and I like being safe over sorry in respect to my mom.
There are two directions to come from...
1. Until I know its safe, not going to do it.
2. Until I know its unsafe I'm using it.
We can argue which is right or wrong, but one can go either way because that's a personal decision.
It is a fair point to say, unless I know its good, will not do it. Also, simply put what is wrong with saying less is better? Why use something if you don't need to? If TI grade 2 works and grade 5 has other elements why take the risk?
It could be years before you know. My mom died of breast cancer caused from medication she was on. The year after her death they proved the effects of that drug and pulled it from the market...
So lets just think about this. If I was her when the doc gave me this and I asked is it safe and the answer was "there is no scientific evidence that states it is harmful", I would ask if there is data to prove its safe...
Your choice. Tobacco was safe for years.
Not saying I agree or disagree with anybody, but I respect peoples right to decide which way they go w/o having to justify it. However, its a valid point not to make claims w/o backup. I just think the data is too grey right now and I like being safe over sorry in respect to my mom.
Silver420Surfer
Downward spiral
I would rather err on the side of caution. Not using vanadium or gr5 Ti or whatever, won't have advers effects on my health, it's not like it benefits us.
I don't know who are doing these tests that you guys are using to determine the conclusions you are coming up with(pro and con). Whether or not they are legit, I don't know because I can't replicate their testing. I have to take somebody' word.
G, might be wrong, and my health suffers none the less since he's already erring on the side of caution. But if the gov't or whatever studies are wrong, we may not learn how bad it is till 10-20 years later.
Hey DDT was safe too, right?
"The great expectations held for DDT have been realised. During 1946, exhaustive scientific studies have shown that, when properly used, DDTs a host of destructive pests, and is a benefactor of all humanity.
Pennsalt produces DDT and its products in all standard forms and is now one of the country's largest producers of this amazing insecticide. Today, everyone can enjoy added comfort, health and safety through the insect killing power of Pennalt DDT products...and DDT is only one of many chemical products which benefit industry, farm and home."
"KnoxOut for the home--helps to make healthier, more comfortable homes...protects your family from dangerous insect pests. Use KnoxOut DDT powders and sprays as directed...then watch the bugs 'bite the dust'."
G claims about the grades of Ti and their associated make up is not under debate.
Here are the controversial quotes that I think OF was opposed to:
Just to clarify the above quotes are what are caused this discussion. All G is saying is that anyone else using Ti should say what grade it is. I dont think he is putting down other companies, he just wants what we all want - evidence to support the claims. If a company is using Ti, and they claim its safe, then they need to back that up. That is what G is doin here by saying he's using Grade 2.
Here are the controversial quotes that I think OF was opposed to:
Just to clarify the above quotes are what are caused this discussion. All G is saying is that anyone else using Ti should say what grade it is. I dont think he is putting down other companies, he just wants what we all want - evidence to support the claims. If a company is using Ti, and they claim its safe, then they need to back that up. That is what G is doin here by saying he's using Grade 2.
Thats the thing removing the unknown makes it safer we all know that. Unless there is a study on vanadium being safe i just dont see it being used in this field and until then in our book its unsafe.
ataxian
PALE BLUE DOT
Nice story about your mom!
2 VS 5?
I get it grade 2 is better!
Why do people eat poison everyday all day long and worry about tubing, glass, stainless steel, titanium?
If your worried about what kind of metal being used in a medical device don't you think you should be even more critical of what you ingest at least 3x a day?
OF
Well-Known Member
Yes, two. It's cheaper and easier to work. Exactly the reasons I think other globe vape guys are probably using grade 1-4 (pure metal) rather than 5 or any other of the dozens of alloys that aren't used in vapes.
Grade 5 shows up in nails as a fluke. Unless you can get the material very very cheap (reject medical parts) you'd be foolish to go to the expensive stuff if you don't need the increased strength. Why would they pay more and work harder rather than make exactly the same choice as D9 Engineers seem to be?
By all means do test them. You might want to try a different lab, however. If they told you the DART heater was Nichrome they took your money under false pretenses. I've seen the spool it comes off, and wound heaters with it. I've worked with the same family of alloys over the years......it's NOT Nichrome. It's Iron based, not Nickle.
But by all means do test it out before making the claim again? I believe you're off......not I think that it really matters. If the Vanadium stays in the Ti alloy (or in the stainless steel you have no trouble in using.....) what's the issue? As another poster asked, 'can you suggest how it gets from metal into the airstream?
OF
PhotoRider
Diagnosed with level 11 G.A.S.
Agreed, my point.
I might rephrase to - to the best of my knowledge we are the only ones using grade 2 TI
Personally, its 100% ok to state this as an advantage in marketing data.
Its also fair for @OF to state "so, anybody using grade 5 would be stupid because the additional cost and lack of an advantage".
Everyone is right
@OF If what you say is true then you know i will give credit where credit is due. The fact that we are saying grade 2 is better then grade 5 in this application is because of its purity.
If anyone else is using Grade 2 good for them but until i see a claim my words stand. You know USPO doesnt care about who thought of it first, its who filed for it, and mailing it to your self doesnt help either.
But i will give credit where its due and TET would be awesome if they are using Grade 2 that only solidifies that Grade 2 is better then grade 5.
If anyone else is using Grade 2 good for them but until i see a claim my words stand. You know USPO doesnt care about who thought of it first, its who filed for it, and mailing it to your self doesnt help either.
But i will give credit where its due and TET would be awesome if they are using Grade 2 that only solidifies that Grade 2 is better then grade 5.
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PhotoRider
Diagnosed with level 11 G.A.S.
True, unless there is 'prior art' of course. Patents are easy to get and hard to defend. My work had a quota per senior engineer per year. They are used as poker chips a lot. I myself have been involved in several suits over prior art claims on either side of the fence. I still get expert witness requests from the silicon valley. I hate being involved in this civil crap.
Note: never ever keep any work info on your personal computers. If you do the other side has access by law to your computer including personal info in discovery. Learned that the hard way in 1992. Email saved on it is enough. I never download work email on personal stuff.
Sorry, off subject.
Note: never ever keep any work info on your personal computers. If you do the other side has access by law to your computer including personal info in discovery. Learned that the hard way in 1992. Email saved on it is enough. I never download work email on personal stuff.
Sorry, off subject.
650
415~650
If other products are using grade 2, wouldn't they advertise it as "Grade 2 Ti Coil" because most products I see are "spring coil" "Steel coil" etc....
And if people want to know more about healthwise 2 vs 5, why don't they lab test and research on their own time? G has things like the iris v2 to worry about, why make him do extra research and testing just so you can discredit the laboratory testing in the end?
This topic wasn't brought up to bash any other products, but it was made to show the advancements being made to these coils. I, for one, want to thank G because if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be able to hold a product in my hand and know that at this very moment, it is still being worked on to be the greatest it can be.
And if people want to know more about healthwise 2 vs 5, why don't they lab test and research on their own time? G has things like the iris v2 to worry about, why make him do extra research and testing just so you can discredit the laboratory testing in the end?
This topic wasn't brought up to bash any other products, but it was made to show the advancements being made to these coils. I, for one, want to thank G because if it wasn't for him I wouldn't be able to hold a product in my hand and know that at this very moment, it is still being worked on to be the greatest it can be.
PhotoRider
Diagnosed with level 11 G.A.S.
OF
Well-Known Member
.
You misunderstand me, I'm suggesting if you decide to use a lab to test your competitor's Ti grade you might want to use a different one than the one that reported Nichrome heater elements in a device with no Nichrome.
Yes, grade 5 is more expensive. And it's harder to work. Exactly the point I tried to make before. Those two alone to me mean that competent Engineers would go with the cheaper, easier to work grades? I see nothing to base assumptions your competitors are using grade 5, nor do I see any real health issues if they did.
Yup, I agree, lots of good information going around, but also I think some questionable 'facts'.
As a maker I don't think it's OK to state your competitors are using less safe materials unless you can prove it. Less formal members, like you and I, can have personal opinions but IMO being a maker here involves additional responsibility. We sure don't want other makers saying D9 gear isn't safe without proof, do we?
I disagree. You made the statement that they were using less safe materials than you, IMO therefore the burden of proof is squarely in your court. IMO you have two points you need to provide proof for, first that they are in fact using grade 5, then that grade 5 as used is a hazard......it's surely not a hazard as an implant....
OF
You misunderstand me, I'm suggesting if you decide to use a lab to test your competitor's Ti grade you might want to use a different one than the one that reported Nichrome heater elements in a device with no Nichrome.
Yes, grade 5 is more expensive. And it's harder to work. Exactly the point I tried to make before. Those two alone to me mean that competent Engineers would go with the cheaper, easier to work grades? I see nothing to base assumptions your competitors are using grade 5, nor do I see any real health issues if they did.
Yup, I agree, lots of good information going around, but also I think some questionable 'facts'.
As a maker I don't think it's OK to state your competitors are using less safe materials unless you can prove it. Less formal members, like you and I, can have personal opinions but IMO being a maker here involves additional responsibility. We sure don't want other makers saying D9 gear isn't safe without proof, do we?
I disagree. You made the statement that they were using less safe materials than you, IMO therefore the burden of proof is squarely in your court. IMO you have two points you need to provide proof for, first that they are in fact using grade 5, then that grade 5 as used is a hazard......it's surely not a hazard as an implant....
OF
First point. I did came out as nichrome, so the point of using another then having you contest it makes no sense. Ill test it at a location you choose so as we dont have any more issues.
I never stated they are using less safer materials i stated grade 2 is better then grade 5 because of the materials involved. As for anyone saying our materials arnt safe without proof sure they can in fact its being done today by many. Nothing new but we back up our words with proof.
Proof Grade 2 less materials then grade 5. Better and safer since we have taken out the materials we dont have proof on. Now are the materials safe? thats up for you to decide and provide proof it is or isnt. Im stating that removing them makes it safer.
Fact Grade 2 Ti does not exist in current production units that are based on the ego. Since you claimed the Cera is using a Grade 2 it should say something about its .8 ohms and 4 amp draw that states whats needed to drive it. Something that ego batteries cant do. Remember Tim corrected himself on the Dart saying not all 3.7v power packs can drive it.
So please show me how a ego is able to drive a Grade 2 Ti coil. Lets rewrite all the scientific laws.
Silver420Surfer
Downward spiral
Fuck Thursday Nite Football.
OF
Well-Known Member
I think we're talking across points here? I said 'I question Nichrome because that's not what's in there'. I agreed not to say what it is, but they've said it's Iron based (which it is). For sure it's not Nichrome as normally worked, it's hard as nails. Steel wire, messes up wire cutters, whole other stuff. Next time I'm by I'll see if it's OK to send you a piece to play with/have analyzed. I see no reason why not, you can surely break open a Cera or DART.
And for sure I didn't say it right, the heater in Cera Ti EO is the same (non Nichrome) mystery metal, the other metal pieces are Ti (I'm not sure about the contact screw in the bottom though.....). Sorry if you misunderstood.
As to the last point, assuming the mystery metal in the Halo is Ti (and I have no reason to doubt that) it's definitely running on a Ego 3.7 Volt pack. The Ego T in fact. Doesn't the KISS work on such supplies? It will on Omicron Light, right? I don't get the problem. If it's the DART we're talking about (which is not Ti or Nichrome.....) it's nominally 1.5 Ohms, and yes some Ego supplies don't drive it. The skinny ones that look like cigarettes specifically (yes, I have one of those too....). At one point the heater in my DART was higher power (lower resistance) but now it's not a problem for typical Ego supplies (being 1.5 Ohms). The TV supplies, of course, have no trouble driving higher powers.
Like I said, somehow we seem to be talking across points?
OF
@OF just to make sure Cera is not Ti Grade 2 heater. Ok so thats cleared up.
Now you will know soon enough why the others are Grade 5 Ti. Just wait for it and hold me responsible for this.
Just wait all i ask is give me time to properly test this new discovery out. Ill let you know why the other ego power plants cant run a Ti Grade 2 and only can run a Grade 5.
In fact lets ask a manufacturer who runs a Ti coil what grade it is. Im sure its a harmless question right?
Silver420Surfer
Downward spiral
I wonder what grade the VB Dabbler or Dr Dabber Ti coils are? Since all those type companies are all claiming Titanium now, shouldn't we make them disclose also? (or face the wrath of G) Only seems fair.