Discussion in 'Cooking with Cannabis' started by Qbit, Jan 6, 2012.
I dont have gelcaps, so i ill just take a spoonful of granules when i eat a cookie next
Interesting. I have Chrons Disease and Graves Disease/hyperthyroidism which causes a very fast metabolism and a hard time absorbing nutrients. I live in Colorado and have had 300mg edibles that barely do anything. I've had over 1000mg in a few hours with mild effect that lasted a few hours...
I have been making various batches of coconut oil capsules trying different things using an ounce of sugar leaf indica trim each time. As actual edibles were hard to control dosages and had to many variables. The results with lecithin were astounding to me having seen my past purchased edible history. I have also seen that when taken with milk the effects hit sooner and harder but don't last as long. I am not sure if this is my lactose intolerance or the aid of animal fat for cannabanoids. ones Decarbing method also changes results tremendously...
I will try an egg sandwich with a glass of milk soon as I will be running more tests tomorrow!
I can also tell from experience that soy lecithin works very well.
Made some brownies for a vacation with a few friends once. First time I made 'em, did lots of research first and I read about the soy lecithin and I decided it couldn't hurt much. I actually had put quite a lot of work into it. Water cured it, used coconut oil, froze it 8 hours each time I heated it, all the good stuff.
I think it was about 0.15g of cheap outdoor bud per brownie and they got us blazing for half a day every time again.
That stuff got me a lot higher than that time when I downed about 0.25g of dank with coconut oil (and did not use soy lecithin). So I'd say it works really well.
I'm going to have to give this thread a read through as I've not had any luck with my ABV. It's been a long time since I've tried though. I have a peanut butter jar full and I'm ready to buy some lecithin soon and hopefully get some results. I have a lot of reading to do...
can anyone tell me the ratio of abv-coconut oil? I'm thinking of using this exact method but I'm sure the potency will be different with abv. i was thinking 10ml for every gram of abv? let me know what you think
Lecithin is just supposed to increase absorption? So the recipes work ok without it?
I found this brand: http://www.nowfoods.com/Lecithin-Granules-Non-GMO-1-Lb.htm
Naturally occurring phospholipids (example) (per serving) (1 1/2 tablespoons)*:
Phosphatidyl Choline 2.3 g (2,300 mg)
Phosphatidyl Inositol 1.4 g (1,400 mg)
Searched for "Naturally Occurring Phosphatidyl Choline" and found this on wikipedia:
Possible health risks
A report in 2011 has linked the microbial catabolites of phosphatidylcholine with increased atherosclerosis in mice through the production of choline, trimethylamine oxide, and betaine.
And this for "lecithin":
Possible link to heart disease
A growing body of evidence indicates lecithin is converted by gut bacteria into trimethylamine-N-oxide(TMAO), which is released into circulation, and may with time contribute to atherosclerosis and heart attacks.
Good find, i vaguely remember i once wanted to read articles addressing matters like those.
this just came across one of my news feeds.
Soy Lecithin: How It Negatively Affects Your Health And Why You Need To Avoid It
@JoeKickass That study was done on mice, but, when done one humans those results weren't seen. Also, foods that are needed for our health contain the nutrient so our body knows how to deal with it. I wouldn't just use a supplement to get my choice but as part of my diet that already has it in smaller quantities. Here's an article rebutting that article you linked
@StickyShisha That article read just like a "dangers of soy" campaign that is all over the net. They used words to make things sound worse then it really is. They are trying to play on your emotions, not logic. I wouldn't eat raw soy but if you eat tofu, or cook soy beans, or make soy milk, you won't be ingesting protein inhibitors because heat destroys the inhibitors. When making milk, and tofu, the beans are cooked in boiling water. Soy lecithin has no protein inhibitors in it, and if it did, it would he so little that you won't feel the negative effects from it. At least most people. As part of your regular healthy Diet, a tablespoon or two of soy lecithin isn't a problem. I would say puffing herb everyday, and not being active, or not eating well, is worse for you then a little soy lecithin.
fermented soy foods = good for health
unfermented soy foods = not so much
(tofu, soy milk)
Why is unfermented not good for you?
@grokit that article sounds the same as the other one I mentioned above. I agree on the gm soy but most tofu you buymlets you know its not gm anyway. The same as soy beans. Then he names certain substances in the bean such as phytic acid and the phytoestrogens but, phytic acid has been shown to be good for you when apart of the food you are eating. It help chelate metals out of your body. I wouldn't supplement it but as part of my diet, it isn't a problem. The same with the phytoestrogens. Your body makes estrogens but, they are stronger in effects than phytoestrogens, and cause problems. Being the phytoestrogens are weak, they help keep the stronger ones from binding to the receptors and doing their job, and causing problems. Then he mentions the anti nutrients like the protease inhibitors but, when you cook the beans in some boiling water, these things are destroyed.
I like mercola but, I think a lot of people in the alternative medicine crowd bunch up a lot of info, and don't separate what is truez and what's not. These are the same people who used to say herb will make you go crazy, and allow you to lose your manhood. Now they may not say it because herb is the in thing, but they used to say it. I still listen to them but, I also research what they are saying, and see if its true.
I eat beans everyday, and never had issues, so I doubt soy would be the only bean that has all these problems, especially when east asians have been eating it all these years. Now, I wouldn'tt drink soy milk unless iI made it, or some of the fake soy meat because the companies add things to it, and I don't know if they cooked the beans properly through before making the milk. Soy protein is the same for me, except it is just the protein and Iddon't think that is healthy to eat for long periods of time. Once in a while isn't bad but if I needed a protein source, tofu, and bean with rice is good enough for me because they have so much more then soy protein, they are one of highest nutrient dense foods there is.
Here's an interesting article on phytic acid. BTW, when he speaks on fermemtation, take into account you have some yeast, and bacteria in your gut which do the same thing. Which is why eating food with soluble fiber is good, the bacteria feed off of this type of fiber, and grow. This allows you to extract nutrients from food, make some vitamins, as well as keep your gut healthy, and from having an overgrowth of bad bacteria. The soluble fiber also helps you shit good.
Mercola is an integrative physician that runs the most widely-read natural health site on the interwebs. He has an entire team of researchers at his disposal, and doesn't just say things like he is in "doubt" about something -- everything he says is researched and his sources are always cited.
It doesn't seem like you read the entire article:
"For centuries, Asian people have been consuming fermented soy products such as natto, tempeh, and soy sauce, and enjoying the health benefits. Fermented soy does not wreak havoc on your body like unfermented soy products do.
Dr. Kaayla Daniel, author of The Whole Soy Story, points out thousands of studies linking soy to malnutrition, digestive distress, immune-system breakdown, thyroid dysfunction, cognitive decline, reproductive disorders and infertility—even cancer and heart disease.
Here is just a sampling of the health effects that have been linked to soy consumption:
Immune system impairment
Severe, potentially fatal food allergies
Danger during pregnancy and nursing"
@grokit I know all about Dr.Mercola, and everyone doesn't agree with everything he says, including those in his profession. I like him myself, that doesn't mean he is right about everything.
I read the whole article, and its misleading. East Asians eat tons of tofu, which isn't fermented. Most of the issues from soy comes from uncooked soy, and highly processed soy, as well as a lack of a proper diet. Whole soy like the beans, and tofu, don't show these problems. Read this from the worlds healthiests foods site which stays uup to date with the science of food.
Again, food feremnts in your gut, so you still get some of the benefits of fermented versions. As long as you eat the soy with food that helps the bacteria grow like beans, whole grains like brown rice, that have soluble fiber(beans are the best though), Some fermentation will happen.
If food is fermenting in your gut, it's there too long and becoming toxic. The whole point of fermenting food is to make it easier to digest, which makes the nutrients it contains more soluble and bioavailable.
The page you just linked to is about tofu and miso; miso is always fermented and asians eat mostly stinky or pickled tofu which are fermented varieties. Tofu is not a whole food, it is the curd that floats to the top when soy milk is made so tofu is actually a waste product of soy milk manufacturing.
From the article you just cited (!):
"In this particular study a variety of micro-organisms (fungi) were used to ferment the tofu, including Aspergillus oryzae, Aspergillus sojae, Aspergillus awamori, Actinomucor taiwanensis, and Rhizopus oligosporus. There are many health advantages to the fermentation of soy foods.
Fermentation increases the digestibility of soy (especially its proteins), nutrient absorption from soy (including absorption of phytonutrient isoflavones like genistein and daidzein), and the concentration of bioactive peptides (formed during the breakdown of soy proteins during fermentation).
If you are looking for a tofu that is more easily digested and more likely to contain nutrients in forms that are better absorbed, look for fermented tofu. As described earlier, you will find a wide variety of terms being used to describe fermented tofu, including pickled tofu, preserved tofu, tofu cheese, Chinese cheese, sufu, sufu cheese, stinky curd, stinky tofu, and stinky sufu.
In the case of fermented soy foods like tofu that has been fermented these phytonutrients can become more concentrated and more bioavailable as well. Fermented soy foods like fermented tofu have more bioactive peptides than non-fermented soy foods, including "regular" tofu.
Soyasaponins are soy phytonutrients that have been especially interesting to researchers with respect to their cardiovascular benefits. Soyasaponins are provided in many forms of soy, but fermentation of soy has been shown to increase their concentration. Increased levels of soyasaponins in fermented soy foods like fermented tofu are likely to play a role in the better track record of fermented (versus non-fermented) soy foods in the area of cardiovascular benefits.
The area of cancer prevention is a controversial area of health research on soybeans. Genistein (an isoflavone phytonutrient in soy) is often a key focus in these cancer-prevention studies. Importantly, genistein is found in higher concentrations in fermented soy foods like fermented tofu (compared to non-fermented soy foods like soymilk, isolate soy protein, concentrated soy protein, textured soy protein—also known as TVP—and non-fermented tofu).
We recommend that you choose whole food soybeans whenever possible, rather than highly processed versions like soy protein isolates and soy protein concentrates. Especially good choices in this context would be whole food-type soy products that have also been fermented, like fermented tofu. In general, it's worth remembering that fermented soy foods have a better track record in cancer prevention than non-fermented soy products.
Since fermented soy foods like fermented tofu have increased concentrations of bioactive peptides (versus non-fermented soy foods), fermented tofu may turn out to be premier forms of soy with respect to obesity management. However, it's important to remember that this fascinating research on soy and obesity is still in a very early stage.
The vast majority of tofu sold in the United States has not been fermented. There's little question in the research about the added health benefits that can come from fermentation of tofu."
No, the food ferments but within 24 hours you shit it out. This what soluble fiber helps you do. All fermenting means is to breakdown using microorganisms.
They eat both but, fresh is the majority.
You only chose one point in that article when it mentioned unfermented tofu numerous times. The point was unfermented tofu is not dangerous for you. You are just showing where it says fermented tofu will have more nutrients but that is a whole bunch of fermented foods. That isn't what we are discussing.
Tofu is not a waste product of milk, its an extraction. You first boil the beans, then you add a coagulent to get the protein to bind together. Then you squeeze out the water, and you are left with a cake. That is not a waste product of soy milk. This is the first time I heard someone say that. The point of tofu is to have a protein concentrate but, since its not processed and broken down, it will still have parts of the whole soybean such as soluble fiber, some carbohydrates, and some phytonutrients, and minerals, hence a whole soy food.
At least you hope you shit it out, many people don't digest unfermented soy very well. For example unfermented soy contains trypsin inhibitors, which interfere with protein digestion.
I showed you an article full of research that show the health problems that come from eating unfermented soy. Then I pointed out numerous citations in your article that shows how much better fermented soy is than non-fermented, it's throughout the article so I edited my post. Your article is about a study of soy's health benefits, but they only used fermented soy, so anything it says about unfermented soy is speculation.
Unfermented soy has the following 10 adverse affects on your body:
1. High Phytic Acid (Phytates): Reduces assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking, but only with long fermentation. High-phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.
2. Trypsin inhibitors: Interferes with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic disorders. In test animals, trypsin inhibitors in soy caused stunted growth.
3. Goitrogens: Potent agents that block your synthesis of thyroid hormones and can cause hypothyroidism and thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked with autoimmune thyroid disease. Goitrogens interfere with iodine metabolism.
4. Phytoestrogens/Isoflavones: Plant compounds resembling human estrogen can block your normal estrogen and disrupt endocrine function, cause infertility, and increase your risk for breast cancer.
5. Hemagglutinin: A clot-promoting substance that causes your red blood cells to clump, making them unable to properly absorb and distribute oxygen to your tissues.
6. Synthetic Vitamin D: Soy foods increase your body's vitamin D requirement, which is why companies add synthetic vitamin D2 to soymilk (a toxic form of vitamin D).
7. Vitamin B12: Soy contains a compound resembling vitamin B12 that cannot be used by your body, so soy foods can actually contribute to B12 deficiency, especially among vegans.
8. Protein Denaturing: Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein (TVP). Chemical processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.
9. MSG: Free glutamic acid, or MSG, is a potent neurotoxin. MSG is formed during soy food processing, plus additional MSG is often added to mask soy's unpleasant taste.
10. Aluminum and Manganese: Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum, which is toxic to your nervous system and kidneys, and manganese, which wreaks havoc on your baby's immature metabolic system.
Soy's antinutrients are quite potent. Drinking just two glasses of soymilk daily provides enough of these compounds to alter a woman's menstrual cycle. But if you feed soy to your infant or child, these effects are magnified a thousand-fold. Infants fed soy formula may have up to 20,000 times more estrogen circulating through their bodies as those fed other formulas. You should NEVER feed your infant a soy-based formula!
In fact, infants fed soy formula take in an estimated five birth control pills' worth of estrogen every day.
As dangerous as unfermented soy is, fermented soy from organic soybeans is a different story altogether and can be a beneficial part of your diet. Fermented soy is a great source of vitamin K2, and K2 (combined with vitamin D) is essential in preventing osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease, dementia, and various types of cancer.
Note that tofu is NOT on this list and is among the soy foods I do not recommend. Traditionally fermented soy products include:
Soy sauce (as long as it's fermented in the traditional way, and not all are)
Contrary to what you may have heard, Asians do not consume large amounts of soy. They use small amounts as a condiment (about two teaspoons daily), but not as a primary protein source. And the type of soy they consume is traditionally fermented soy.
@grokit I already explained cooking destroys the inhibitors. All beans need to be cooked or you will have problems from them. I eat tofu, and shit it out good because i also eat other beans that are rich in soluble fiber. I eat around 50 grams of soluble fiber a day. No one should just be eating tofu, and nothing else of substance, that is just dumb and will cause problems. Also, you just copied and pasted everything that was on Dr.mercolas site which I already broke down, and stated I don't agree with. I even gave the link on phytic acid which goes against what he states. Him saying high phytate diets caused problems is not totally true. They caused problems because that is mainly what was eaten. When you eat a whole food diet that is proper(carbohydrates, both forms of fiber, vegetables, and protein) no health problems occur.
And that article is wrong, east Asians consume tofu in many things, and its not fermented soy.
I'm just going in circles so we can agree to disagree.
I included the link, the list I copied wasn't from mercola's site. It's not just Mercola, all he really does is report on the research of others. Why would they all put out false information? Otoh, the billion-dollar processed soy food marketers have great motivation to distort the facts. There's really quite a few books and research articles out there about the dangers of highly-processed, unfermented soy products.
Speaking of Mercola,
this is from his latest compilation of research on the dangers of unfermented soy foods:
"The soybean did not serve as a food until the discovery of fermentation techniques, sometime during the Chou Dynasty. The first soy foods were fermented products like tempeh, natto, miso, and soy sauce.
At a later date, possibly in the 2nd century BC, Chinese scientists discovered that a purée of cooked soybeans could be precipitated with calcium sulfate or magnesium sulfate (plaster of Paris or Epsom salts) to make a smooth, pale curd – tofu or bean curd. The use of fermented and precipitated soy products soon spread to other parts of the Orient, notably Japan and Indonesia.
The Chinese did not eat unfermented soybeans as they did other legumes such as lentils because the soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or "antinutrients." First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion."
As far as phytic acid goes, if it is destroyed in cooking, why is it present in tofu, which is a cooked product? In fact, more of it is found in tofu than is found in raw soybeans:
I think that the differences we are discussing may be due to the differences in the way soy is processed in the usa compared to more traditional methods of preparation in asia. "Modern soy protein foods in no way resemble the traditional asian soy foods, and may contain carcinogens like nitrates and lysinoalanine. Non-fermented soy products like tofu, soy milk and meatless foods made from textured vegetable protein also contain phytic acid, one of many anti-nutrients it's wise to avoid at all costs."
For example you say that soy milk is made by boiling beans the beans, which is true traditionally. But the usa sells manly the low/non-fat varieties, which is processed very differently; the first step is to separate the bean into protein and oil which requires dangerous solvents and other chemicals.
I disagree that asians eat mainly unfermented tofu in asia, and I also disagree that tofu in asia is manly unfermented. In fact, there are traditional methods of making tofu in asia through fermentation.
Here's another article, not from Mercola:
"Soy farming started around 1100 BC in China, where it was used to build soil fertility and feed animals. Soy beans were not considered fit for humans until the Chinese learned to ferment them, which makes them digestible. Asian diets now include fermented soy beans in the form of natto, miso, tamari, and tempeh.
Soy producers want you to eat more soy — more than the Asians eat, and more than is good for you. The Japanese and Chinese eat 10 grams of soy per day — about two teaspoons. Yet a soy manufacturer recommends Americans eat ten times what the Japanese eat — 100 grams of soy protein per day.
Asians only eat 2 teaspoons of soy a day, usually as a condiment, and it’s highly fermented! Fermentation takes care of many of the dangers of soy. Plus, the typical Asian will also consume soy with mineral-rich and nutrient-dense foods such as fish broth (naturally high in iodine & other minerals which support the thyroid).
So, Is Soy Bad For You?
The short answer? YES! Let’s be clear on the recent history of soy. The soybean was a modest and unpopular crop until food manufacturers intent on creating cheap vegetable oils convinced the U.S. government to start subsidizing it. The soy was turned into oil, and the industry was left with an industrial waste product. Then somebody had a brilliant idea:
Let’s take this industrial waste product full of toxins and carcinogens — isolated soy protein — and turn it into food that people will eat!
Soy foods were born."
@grokit you keep quotingDr.mercola. the huffingtonpost article was his, the health problems were from him, and the last post of your was from him. I grew up with east Asians eating tofu all the time. I eat tofu, and have no problem. All beans have trypsin iinhibitors which makes sense, the bean needs it to keep the nutrients in the bean. Once cooked or sprouted, these inhibitors are lowered significantly. I stated phytic acid is good for you. Mercola says avoid phytic acid at all costs bit that means not eating beans or grains, and that would be dumb as hell. Beans are ultra high in antioxidants, and nutrient dense.
No one makes tofu from soy milk sold in the stores, they make it from whole soy beans. Its called soy milk but its just cooked soybeans that have been mashed into the liquid.
Of course there are version of fermented tofu, its called tempeh(the whole bean is used) but its not the main versions they eat. The reason people used to ferment foods is because they had no refrigeration, so fermenting helped the food lasts longer.
I agree/highly processed soy shouldntnbe eaten a lot but that goes for all highly processed foods.
Scientists Reassess the Value of Phytic Acid
Phytic acid is one possibility. Some research suggests that the low incidence of breast cancer among Asian women may be due to soybeans that are high in phytic acid as well as fiber. Some scientists also believe that the lower cancer rates among people who eat a lot of unrefined cereal grains may be due to phytic acid, not the fiber content. Phytic acid (also known as inositol hexaphosphate or IP6) is a naturally occurring substance found in considerable quantities in unrefined grains, like wheat, corn and rice, as well as beans, nuts and seeds.
"Although phytic acid has shown an ability to halt abnormal cell proliferation and shrink tumors in laboratory studies within the last 15 years, its good reputation is still being established. For a long while, phytic acid was considered an anti-nutrient for its ability to bind with important minerals, like calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc, inhibiting the body from absorbing them. But according to molecular biologist, Ivana Vucenik, Ph.D., "In a normal western diet, this does not happen. Only in areas like India and South America where there is malnutrition and diets low in minerals can phytic acid act negatively if present in very large quantities."
Anticancer effects of phytic acid
Traditionally, phytic acid has been linked to mineral deficiency because of its affinity with minerals, mainly iron, zinc, calcium and magnesium. However, recent studies show that phytic acid, even when dosed at normal levels, does not cause deficiencies or toxic effects. Phytic acid seems only to affect cancer cells and not normal cells. Phytic acid and inositol improves the effectiveness of chemotherapy. More studies are required to determine optimal dosage, effectiveness and safety of phytic acid.
Would you like a list of articles about the dangers of soy foods not written by mercola?
There's quite a few, as I said all he does is report on and compile them.
Well there ya go. Very scientific
Again, why are there more of these inhibitors in cooked tofu than there are in raw soybeans?
Again, fermented tofu is called stinky or pickled tofu. Yes tempeh is a whole food while tofu is not.
There's a lot more articles about phytic acid being an anti-nutrient than there are about it being good for one's health. The former are from mostly individual researchers, while the latter are mainly from industry-funded studies. Throughout history, soybeans were never used as a food until it was fermented to mitigate the negative health effects of phytic acid, and it had been an agricultural crop a long time by then.
@grokit There is very little trypsin inhibitor in tofu, but there is more phytic acid and this is probably due to the phytic acid binding to the calcium used to coagulate the protein. Stinky tofu is not the same as tempeh or pickled tofu. Stinky tofu is left to sit in a tub of liquid for days or even months until the outside of the tofu rots. Pickled tofu, is just that pickled by putting the tofu in an acidic environment so no microorganisms can effect it or make it go bad.
Tofu is whole in the sense that it contains many of the things in the bean. All this hate for soy comes from the hate of gm foods like soy, and highly proecced substances that are isolated from the beans, but, the people who are spreading these lies won't separate the three forms, and lump all soy in the same category. They did it with cannabis. They talked all about THC, and forget that there were other compounds in the plant the give you the effects that you get. Or they talked about street herb that may be garbage or sprayed with something and say all herb is like that. They tend to exaggerate when they are biased.
There are more negative articles on phytic acid because they are OLD, we know more now. People like mercola may be stubborn, and don'twwant to change their stance on the subject. You see this with cannabis and older doctors. Also, you see it with subjects such as cholesterol levels being high, and not a real health issue because its the oxidizing of the cholesterol, that causes health problems, not how much you have. A lot of doctors don't care about the new findings because they are so used to believing something else.
You keep mentioning history but, I eat it and a lot of Asians eat it so why aren't we getting sick? Shouldn't we be having problems from eating tofu within a month if its so bad? In fact I feel good after I eat tofu.
So you're against the "hate" for gmo foods, that does explain a lot. I'm one of those haters!
But really we're not that far apart. Most processed american soy food has very little resemblance to traditional fermented soy foods from asia, which can be a protein staple but still isn't. The average asian in asia eats about two teaspoons of soy a day. I'm guessing this amount is much higher for asian americans.
There' a lot of new research, to counter the old research, which is way more researched!
@grokit where did I post I'm against the dislike of GMO foods? I posted that is where the hate for soy came from, and because of this all soy is lumped together. Again, if tofu is so bad why aren't all thes Asians in the east, Asians in america, and myself not getting sick from it? Shouldnt they have the worst health?Like Iposted, iI feel good after eating it, especially with some tea or coffee. I feel the effects of them more, after eating tofu. I know why this happens, but the point is if tofu is so bad why haven't I gotten any negative effects from it or anyone I know who eats it? Again tofu, not fake soy meat or soy milk from the store, just tofu from non gm beans.
I can tell you from experience, when you eat beans that aren't prepared properly, within a day you WILL be throwing up, and not be able to shit. Never had these problems with tofu. Maybe constipated but that is because I didn't eat nothing with it that had fiber in it, and all protein rich foods clog you up. I know you know how cheese does you! Or that thick juicy steak. They will have you feel like a brick is going through your ass!
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