Researching vapes: many safety questions & claims but little documentaion.

[faith&physics]

I know this has the potential to be a contentious discussion but I joined FC because the vast majority of discussions I've read so far, and they are many, have remained civil and informative. This is also my first thread so take it easy on me.

I've spent the past week, numerous hours, researching various vapes and reading the myriad opinions regarding materials safety. All I can find, however, are opinions. Considering the popularity of the topic I wonder why no manufacturer other than Storz-Bickel has any available documentation in this regard (http://www.storz-bickel.com/downloads/Safety_Volcano_NRTL.pdf). Even the documentation they offer requires one to reference another document, UL 499-2005 Thirteenth Edition CAN/CSA-22.2 no. 64-m91, which costs almost $100.00 to access so I have no idea what it covers regarding materials safety. Another company offers assurances but indicates that they cannot reveal who does the third party testing. I imagine a lab could be reticent to reveal it's identity due to the nature of the product and it's (un)intended use; unfortunately that leaves everyone back at square one.

This is important stuff because there is no government regulation of these devices with regard to the materials used so manufacturers must regulate themselves and we must trust them to do so. This is not to say I believe anyone is trying to "get one over" on anyone but I do wonder how specific these companies get with regard to material specs and testing the products after they are received from the manufacturing plants. In a way they have to be as trusting of their manufacturing partners as we are of them but how trusting are they? They have the means to have an independent lab test their products but do they all do this or do they simply rely on anecdotal evidence instead of verifiable test results?

I understand this is mostly a cottage industry selling to a very small niche. The costs of lab testing are high but the first manufacturer to provided and openly publish specific, verifiable, lab reports on materials safety will surely be rewarded and able to make up the lab costs through the resulting sales increase.

I've emailed one manufacturer and asked for a MSDS and whatever material specifications sheet they issue the overseas assembly or manufacturing plant and am waiting to hear back. If anyone is interested I'll post their reply but until then if anyone can offer some insight, maybe a lab technician...

EDIT: I moved this from "Vaporizer Discussion" to "General Vaporizer Discussion" as per the rules.

ANOTHER EDIT: I realize the risks involved with consuming herbal substances that are not regulated can be equally risky, however, testing an appliance can be accomplished much easier for reasons I'll not mention.

 

[WatTyler]

You might want to check out the MiniVap http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/minivap.3540/ if you haven't already. Seems to be an area that they're focusing on.

(I think herb + internet forums may cause paranoia, as I'm wondering if it's coincidental that this question should arise in this way at the same time as increased talk about the Minivap and whatever virtues it has... maybe their on line profile is about to be raised... No offence, like I say I think it's paranoia the question often comes up)

 

[vape4life]

I'm working on getting info regarding the materials from the MiniVap.

faith, just curious which manufacturers you are looking into? Welcome to FC by the way, and your post has me curious as well. I don't fall into the camp that thinks just because there are no weird smells, doesn't mean it isn't offgassing some materials (like plastic). I'm always looking for the SAFEST vape BEFORE anything. Surely the Herborizer, Cloud, and VHW all have "clean" airpaths.

 

[vorrange]

I think your concerns are rather valid and i think it is too easy to cheap out on the materials because there is not much regulation.

We end up taking the manufacturers word for it, and so, mostly what you see are indeed opinions.

However, they are informed opinions since you see people here from very differents walks of life and areas of expertise, and usually bad materials tend to leave a trace, whether visual or olfactive.

So, in the end, i believe with relative confidence, that we fend off most of the threats in that matter.

If this gets regulated, you start to see more and more vaporizers like S&B or miniVAP with higher prices because of all the government issued aprovals.

IMO, we are better off this way. Like FUBU, vaporizers should be made for us, and by us. That way, we ensure our best interests without ensuring other peoples not so best interests.

 

[tepictoton]

I have to disagree with you a bit here vorrange...yes, we are better of without government interference, but then again laboratory testing would still be a great addition to our opinions, no?

This is all so new, we do not know what this will do in the long run...Yes, we all THINK this is better for our health in comparison to smoking but can we be really sure? A small example to this, we all thaught extra filters on our cars exhaust would help improve air quality, but now we know these filters actually release more even smaller particles that might even be more hazardous then the particles they filter out(I know this is completely different from vaping, but just an example of where common knowledge turned out to be wrong)

It's kind off funny because I actually just posted a question to this regards in the solo thread because I have noticed my throath getting more easier agitated after using it for some time.

 

[vorrange]

Of course it would, but the problem with lab testing is that it is not free. It also implies the country has to have different laws than 95% of the countries, what won't happen in the mean time.

We already have many research regarding the materials, it is a thorough work but you can have access to that information.

If you don't want to risk it, there are a few options that don't involve hazardous materials. Some as cheap as 15$ to others close to 1000$.

I don't find it is feasible to lab test each vaporizer that comes out, and i only see the medical community in some countries willing to support that.

You don't see lab research on metal offgassing in spoons and tin foil for heroin addicts. Although not the same, it applies here.

Research is hard to implement and maintain. It is easier to do an online research on each material that each vaporizer is composed off and then take your conclusions. Which, i believe, it is what has been done here all these years.

On a final note, you never really know the implications of so many things. Science and knowledge is always evolving. I trust the opinions here at FC because they are not just opinions.

I am sure smoke is worse than vaporizing. There is no way around that.

Your throat problems might be solved with cooler and/or moist vapor.

EDIT: tepictocton, realized you use water filtration already. maybe try it cooler then.. i use my gn0me which is all glass and sometimes my throat is sore. For me that has to do with hot vapor and small particles. If after you solve this too things, you still have problems, then i am out of answers for you. :/

 

[Hippie Dickie]

well, it seems to me, if there is only borosilicate glass in the vapor path, then testing, regulation and the MSDS is not necessary. Particularly if the manufacturer shows what is underneath the hood.

 

[vorrange]

well, it seems to me, if there is only borosilicate glass in the vapor path, then testing, regulation and the MSDS is not necessary. Particularly if the manufacturer shows what is underneath the hood.

Exactly! That was part of what i was implying with options not involving hazardous materials.

 

[max]

The vaporizer industry is still in its infancy, and considering what they get used for/with 99% of the time, despite any and all disclaimers, solid testing is so far down the road as to be worthless to most of us, although I'm sure we have members who aren't yet old enough to legally drive. It's like testing marijuana benefits and safety- who's gonna pay for it, other than big pharma or any others that only want to keep it illegal or control it themselves? And independent product testing for performance is one thing, but documenting the safety of all the materials used in an inhalation device would be both very difficult and very expensive.

You want to solve your 'materials' problem? Hippie Dickie just did it for you. Use a vape where only glass is in the air path. You can buy one as cheap as $100.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

You can buy one as cheap as $100

just to be clear, that's the Vapolution for $100. or the Ubie for $15

 

[SD_haze]

just to be clear, that's the Vapolution for $100. or the Ubie for $15

And the new Gn0me vaporizers

They have direct-draw ones and glass-on-glass all for well under $100

 

[vape4life]

And independent product testing for performance is one thing, but documenting the safety of all the materials used in an inhalation device would be both very difficult and very expensive.

Hmmm, I wonder if this is why the MiniVap is "expensive"? I have yet to hear back from Jorge, but i'm hoping to receive a list of materials.

 

[max]

Only a couple of manufacturers (last I heard) have ponied up the $10,000 for a UL listing either. Any kind of official certification (like 'certified organic') can cost big bucks.

or the Ubie for $15

The Vapo guys also have a little glass ubie size vape for $25.

 

[vape4life]

Hey Max, which manufacturers have that? I'm assuming Storz&Bickel is one.... for both of their products?

 

[faith&physics]

All very insightful, thanks. I Googled one of the high end vaporizers mentioned and still couldn't find any safety data. The press release claims a very high standard that is lab tested but doesn't include any links to the actual data. It seems to me that the ultimate PR in this respect would be a document that provides the data that has been collected.

Vape4life, after trying an inexpensive table-top whip style to see what such a unit was like I'm now looking at one of the more well regarded ones, Da Buddha. There was the presence of easily detectable non-organic odors when sniffing the side vents of the inexpensive box long after it had cooled (three days after). I also breathed deeply through the whip and detected a very unsavory taste and slight irritation that lasted for a short but noticeable time.

For day hiking I purchased a MFLB and some extra bats. My regular day hiking spots are very fire prone and smoking is prohibited as are open flames, not even a lighter. The LB is very simple, effective, and dare I assume, safe. However, for overnight & multi-day camping I'll still use my Fisherman's Friend for now and maybe I'll get a nice teak VG at a later date (I'll ask if I can get it "naked"). The "bare naked" VG seems like it would be a healthy choice but I must ask them about the chrome plating they mention. My reservations regarding DB have to do with the heater's mounting disk; the one separating the upper chamber from the wiring and any PCBs (unless the wiring is P2P which would be encouraging). It's not airtight.

Vorrange, I would be okay with a nominally higher price for a product with verifiable test results available to the consumer.

Tepictoton, good points but we have to go with what we got even as it gets harder to differentiate between sponsored testing results and real third party funded research.

Hippie Dickie, I'm looking forward to your product. Since you haven't yet brought it to market have you looked into how much testing would cost? Perhaps you could round up a few folks here and elsewhere to pitch in and pay for it. Perhaps, you could offer contributors a discount and special warranty.

Max, There are labs in California that test medical marijuana being sold in dispensaries. Unfortunately, even though the labs offer it, no Los Angeles dispensary seems to be using their microbiological or pesticide tests, only potency. I think if more patients demanded it before purchase the dispensaries would be obliged to do so and pass the costs on, which is reasonable.

SD_haze, the Gnome looks about as safe and simple as it gets, and is inexpensive enough to at least try, but I haven't looked at the reviews yet and I rarely spend money on consumer goods without reading a review. I'll be getting to them, though.

It looks like the glass VG could be another safety conscious choice that I'll look into. The more I research the more I begin to think that a simple all glass unit is the best.

Again, i want to thank everyone for the insightful and considered replies.

It seems that the only way to address safety concerns is if the people using or considering using these products all get together and collect the funds needed to independently test these products one by one. Perhaps they could recoup their money by setting up a website and selling the results to various interested parties (including the respective manufacturers who chose not to pay for it themselves) for a nominal fee. Think of it as a safety testing coop like "Consumer Reports". I think someone else here suggested something similar and I believe its a good idea depending on the cost of testing. Anyone know what labs do this sort of thing?

 

[WatTyler]

It looks like the glass VG could be another safety conscious choice that I'll look into. The more I research the more I begin to think that a simple all glass unit is the best.

I'm not sure that inhaling an air stream that's including butane combustion fits your standards of purity. Maybe the Vapbong, which is all glass but has a fresh air intake, or the Gnome might be better to look into.

 

[hazy]

I don't see the point... just seems like more red tape and obstacles for this industry and no real benefit. Like Hippie Dickie says, if it's all glass, there really isn't anything to test. I don't need a certificate to tell me that something is all glass when I can see it is all glass. If something's made of plastic or you don't like it then don't buy it. I prefer to use my common sense. I'm not an idiot who needs someone else to make my choices for me, but more and more the world seems to be heading this way. People incapable of making the most simple decisions in life, and then when they do something stupid... call in the lawyers. Why use your brain when you can just sue someone?

There are far more basic things to worry about, like the source of your herbs and the quality of the air you breathe. Just living in a city is a major health hazard from that point of view. The computer you're sitting in front of is probably offgassing more shit than you'll get from a lifetime of using a vaporizer.

 

[vorrange]

Faith&physics, you already have such options.

The Aromed is used in hospitals as well as the Volcano. The Cloud has a glass vapor path so there should be no issue there.

The Buddha and the SSV have the whip, but if you use medical grade tubing and wash it before using, there should be no issue there as well. (If you start doubting the medical assessment given to certain materials, then you better stop and use nothing.)

In the class of small glass portables, i have a gn0me and it is my opinion that it is superior to the rest. First, the butane is not inhaled in any concentration since you heat the outside of the glass tube unlike the Genies. Second, it is easily cleaned with no metal parts, just glass. And third, it is easier to use and control the temp, than the ubie, or the vapbong. And in durability, i believe only the glass genies are more durable but i have not tested that.

The Vapolution is, i think, the cheapest option with a table vaporizer.

So, as you can see, there are many options already if you take this much consideration and want to be on the safest side.

Regarding what you said concerning the testing, i think you are just seeing one side of the problem which is the lack of proper regulation. The other side is the financial and social implications of having proper regulation. You cannot change the societies view of things, and i don't believe it is accepted for the majority to spend tax money in this type of research.

There are a selected few who made the proper investment to play by societies rules and went through the proper channels, but i prefer to invest half the money necessary in a vaporizer and not have a seal of aproval saying it is safe for inhalation.

We, as a comunity, have grown well and in the right direction. The market is responding accordingly and adjusting the process to use the best and the safest materials. If you don't invest in shady companies, you don't invest in shady vaporizers with questionable materials.

Of course, being vapor pioneers, there are risks. But i am willing to take them, and if i don't, there are still options available without the need to excessive documentation and regulation that cripples the companies profit and reflects in the price you pay in the end.

 

[vape4life]

Was kinda surprised to see this from Arizer's FAQ....ofcourse it's easy to just "say" yes.

: Does the product meet UL, CSA, CE Standards.
A: Yes.

 

[t-dub]

Rest assured, it has been tested. Everything gets tested. Tested, tested, and tested more. Then more testing. I'm a nuclear engineer by profession, I live safety, and I live testing. We are testing the Revolution in the same exorbitantly rigorous manner that we tested the ThermoVape. I love testing. I test my new testing methods before I let them be called a test. I test so much the word "test" starts to look misspelled because it's become some abstract state of existence. I'm actually testing the Revolution right now, and It likes it. It has to like it, it has no choice, because that's all it will get until it passes everything I can imagine throwing it's way, with flying colors, and pain, and it likes it. The testing pain is pounded in. Then tenderized with more testing. Then pounded in again. This is the way it is.

I would have a chat with Nate over at ThermoEssence Technologies. He understands material safety parameters and their products and customer service are excellent. Click pic for more info.
Highest Grade Materials

The Thermo-Essence Technologies uses only the highest grade USA made materials available. The ThermoVape is machined from solid 6061 T6 Aerospace grade aluminum, then anodized and sealed with nickel acetate, which fills the pores of the aluminum with nickel ions for optimal durability, finish, and aesthetics. The patented heating core system uses a medical device grade inert porous ceramic with an operating temperature of 1400 °F to insulate our proprietary heating coil. The heating core is completely free from solder (used commonly to make electrical connections, and often contains lead). All O-Rings are FDA approved medical device grade. All machined components, down to the smallest part, are held to an exacting 5/10,000 of an inch tolerance. Thermo-Essence Technologies products have multiple patents pending, both foreign and domestic. Simply stated, Thermo-Essence Technologies refuses to compromise quality in materials or manufacturing: “good enough” is just not good enough.

but if you use medical grade tubing and wash it before using, there should be no issue there as well. (If you start doubting the medical assessment given to certain materials, then you better stop and use nothing.)

I could be mistaken on this but I thought we were supposed to use "Food Grade" tubing which has a 500*F rating, not 400*F like the medical stuff?

 

[max]

I could be mistaken on this but I thought we were supposed to use "Food Grade" tubing which has a 500*F rating, not 400*F like the medical stuff?

Food/beverage grade tubing doesn't normally have a temp rating nearly that high. For vaping use there's really no difference between 400 and 500, and most OEM tubing included with vapes doesn't go nearly that high. By the time vapor hits tubing the temp isn't really that high. The best for both taste and plenty of temp headroom is silicone tubing. The Silcon brand is inexpensive as well.

 

[t-dub]

Thanks max! I ordered some high temp silicone tubing from here, 5 feet, looks like it will work well. I will check on the Silcon, thanks

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-silicone-rubber-tubing/=ha3il3

Edit: Well max, I liked the specs on the Silcon® better and found some here. Had to buy 10 feet but I am very excited about it. Thanks again!

 

[vap999]

Food/beverage grade tubing doesn't normally have a temp rating nearly that high. For vaping use there's really no difference between 400 and 500, and most OEM tubing included with vapes doesn't go nearly that high. By the time vapor hits tubing the temp isn't really that high. The best for both taste and plenty of temp headroom is silicone tubing. The Silcon brand is inexpensive as well.

In many respects, other plastics are or can be better than silicone for tubing, which in terms of critical purity, e.g., biopharmaceutical and microelectronics manufacture, uses is considered relatively dirty and impure. PTFE (Teflon) and related PFA offer many theoretical improvements over silicone in terms of homogeneity, purity, being absolutely inert, having a higher service temperature (easily over 100˚F higher than any silicone polymer) and having essentially zero leachable/vaporizable components. But drawbacks of PTFE/Teflon for tubing (vs. silicone) include it being less pliable (just use thinner tubing), opaque (not clear), and high cost. Few people have any experience with solid PTFE/Tefon, which is white and very strong, and which is different than cookware coatings. Mechanically, PTFE/Teflon vs. silicone tubing of the same dimensions would be much stronger and harder/stiff. PTFE/Teflon is also very much cleaner, with nothing adhering to it, while silicone is just the opposite, tacky from its silicone oil content.

Also, PTFE/Teflon and PFA should be totally tasteless and odorless (theoretically, even more than glass, which is not a homogenous/pure substance), with these being totally inert (and non-toxic). In contrast, silicone is ≥30% (often much higher) un- and partially-polymerized silicone monomer (oil), which acts as as a self-plasticizer, making silicone pliable but tacky/sticky. Keep in mind that reported operating/service temperatures for silicone do not take into account vaporization of silicone oil content (which does not affect the tubing functionality). If this were considered, silicone tubing's service temperature would surely be 100s˚F lower that than the reported service temperatures. In contrast, the PTFE/Teflon must be heated to 800˚F or well above this (depending on whose data you use) before it starts to vaporize.

Note, these advantages do not mean that silicone is hazardous or unsafe, with silicones (everything from monomer through largest polymer molecules) generally considered harmless and safe; and silicone is even commonly used in critical, e.g., .(bio)pharmaceutical, applications, usually where the minimal leaching of monomer that inevitably occurs is considered insignificant (e.g., removed by later purification steps or is simply at an acceptable level).

So, for those who are absolute purists, seeking zero exposure, total inertness, etc. and are willing to spend even more, perhaps, do your own research and try PTFE/Teflon and/or PFA tubing.

 

[faith&physics]

Vap999, that's the kind of info everyone can use for their research, thanks.

Well I made my decisions: Da Buddha & VB H20 Adapter for my old blown glass at home (tried this setup today and WOW), MFLB & extra bats for day hikes, and Teak VG & hemp wick for multi-day camping makes me completely smokeless! By most accounts and the research I've done these three are among the safest ways to vaporize.

I've been to a lot of similar sites on the net recently and this really is one of the most informed and civilized. Well done to the mods and thanks to everyone else for the great posts in this thread and others.

Good Luck and Godspeed to you all.

 

[weedemon]

im glad to see you found FC F&P!

you sound like a interesting member for us to have gained!

I like you inquisitive attitude and waning to know more about health and safety regarding vaporizers. I agree that I think the all glass path vapes are considered the safest. I think most of the others are also pretty safe. I have used a bunch of them and these days I think yuo get what you pay for. I would not buy anything that I thought might hurt me. Everyone's ability to spot danger is different though, so you have to go with your gut. the guys at thermovape would also be a good bunch to talk to, the 2 main guys are a medical Dr, and a medical equipment engineer, and they built their vape to better than or equal to medical grade specs!

I think you may also want to check out the vapexhale cloud! that thing looks very exciting!